Catholic Exchange

Polite Catholic Barbarians at the Obama Moment

What has troubled me so deeply about the upcoming presidential election is that for the American Catholic voter the November 4 choice really should be a “no-brainer”. We shouldn’t have to think that deeply about our obligation to use our vote to protect the unborn. It shouldn’t be this difficult! Neither party loyalty, nor social issue concerns, nor even a healthy Catholic concern for the common good should ever distract Americans from our most pressing and urgent focus — the abortion holocaust.

And yet we note calls to “deeply ponder” issues, “social justice” activists unjustly demoting abortion to the lower rank of the lesser socioeconomic issues, diocesan newspapers obscuring the Catholic obligation to put opposition to abortion first, and most disturbingly, parish-level seminars on the 2007 USCCB document Faithful Citizenship (FC) presented in such a way that pro-Obama Catholic attendees leave without changing allegiance.

Unfortunately while the misuse of FC to condone a vote against the unborn by over-emphasizing lesser social issues is a fact, yet the time has come to tell the sad truth about FC itself. The document itself is deeply flawed, and lends itself readily to the very kind of misuse that is at issue. Nowhere does it clearly and openly acknowledge that given the choice between pro-abortion and anti-abortion candidates, the Catholic voter is obliged to choose the anti-abortion candidate — he must always vote for and never against the unborn — no matter his party affiliation. Incredibly, at one point FC even repeats the slogan made so famous by Catholic rationalizers who have no stomach to fight abortion: Catholics are “not one-issue voters”!

baby-flag.jpgThese defects allow those predisposed to vote for Obama to rationalize either that Obama’s perceived other social “positives” are good enough to offset his abortion promotion, or that McCain’s corresponding “negatives” are sufficient to offset his abortion opposition. Neither of these rationalizations is sustainable from the Catholic position, because as the bishops and the Vatican have repeatedly said, policies promoting or condoning the large-scale killing of innocent human life are intrinsically, inherently, fundamentally, and grievously in violation of the most basic principles of justice, principles upon which the condemnation of all other injustices depends and from which the opposition to all other injustices receives its moral credibility and authority. Therefore a society failing to protect the most vulnerable (those most deserving of protection) is incapable of defending justice adequately in all other contexts, since in such a society claims to justice are only considered legitimate if made by those powerful enough to forcefully vindicate them (when one can’t get away with it), but are not respected when those deserving of such claims are completely defenseless (when one can get away with it).

The FC document itself reads as though it reluctantly must acknowledge that abortion is intrinsically immoral, but without the stomach for it. It reads like the reluctant statement of lifelong Catholic Democrats whose party loyalties constitute serious impediments to their not-so-well-developed pro-life sentiments. The correct nuances appear in the document — to the extent they appear at all — only in the form of strained and legalistic technically correct statements, statements nonetheless inappropriately wrenched from any adequate context. No cultural outsider reading FC could remotely even guess that we murder 1.5 million unborn children annually in America, a terribly urgent situation and a more prescient and sober background for conscience formation currently. In other words, either the document was deliberately crafted to create a mistaken overall impression despite a few technically correct “lip service” statements, (the more undesirable and cynical view), or it was a product of the reluctant and nouveau pro-life Catholic for whom being a Democrat has always been at least as important as being a Catholic. How sad in either case!

And the only logical motivation would be that of allowing an overall impression among FC readers favorable to Obama despite his abominable record of class warfare against the pre-born, support for genocide of the unborn, and terrorism in and out of the womb.

As an aside, I read recently that in Hitler’s time a secretly-Nazi candidate ran for President of Belgium (1936) and among other things the people mistakenly thought at first he was a saintly Catholic who would bring somewhat radical but “needed” social reforms not really desired by the “stodgy” local Belgian Church. The Vatican however apparently was informed about his secret Nazi identity, and that his frequent “retreats” were actually secret meetings with Hitler to continue to undermine the Church in Belgium, especially because the Church was seen as the only significant remaining cultural anti-Nazi resistance and Hitler secretly feared and wanted to suppress this resistance.

The amazing and perhaps shocking thing that happened next, especially for many modern American Catholics who think of the provisional practice of the clergy not endorsing or rejecting certain candidates as something dogmatic and irrevocable (imagine if we clung to the actual dogmas with such tenacity!), is that the reigning Cardinal archbishop of the time told the entire people of Belgium not to vote for this specific candidate, something that cost him the election and probably saved the country.

Catholics must not vote for Obama, and if this seems too simply put, the reader is invited to consider what it is, in the final analysis, that really separates civilized people from barbarians. Barbaric actions are what make barbaric people, and barbarians even come in the polite variety. There are those who would always make nice conversation, never say anything offensive, and never vote for any candidate in favor of slavery or suicide bombings, no matter how attractive the other aspects of their platforms, yet all the while employing a thousand forms of denial which allow them to turn the other way while the unborn are being dismembered and torn apart. How horribly we are treating our littlest and most defenseless of innocent brothers and sisters! Can anything worse be imagined? Would you vote for Obama if instead of being in favor of abortion he advocated slavery, yet had all the other policies you deem attractive? Then why can’t you see the injustice of abortion for what it is?

Comments

42 responses to “Polite Catholic Barbarians at the Obama Moment”

  1. John Avatar
    John

    ………should we not change the spelling of barbaric to barbarack ?

  2. Grace Harman Avatar
    Grace Harman

    Thank you for this clear and direct statement of TRUTH. We neded it months ago.
    About half of the Catholic voters have been deceived to believe that Obama is a good choice. but this isn’t so.
    His beliefs are dangerous to all ages and types of vulnerable people. Abortion (often racially motivated) is a horrible attack on the unborn. Even those who might be able to live on their own are murdered. Socialized medicine doesn’t work. It is TAX -costly & causes rationing that will eliminate old, handicapped, and poor people. He befriends terrorists. bombers, and communists while often criticising America. This is all very scary. If you don’t have life, you have lost ALL rights.

  3. asdwanamaker Avatar
    asdwanamaker

    Unfortunately, whereas the US bishops have more strongly than ever made it clear what the faithful Catholic’s responsibility is in the voting booth, their message has been undermined by their own — until fairly recently — weak and disunited response to the sexual abuse of children by Catholic clergy.

    Quite simply, the bishops have a severe credibility problem with American Catholics that cannot be undone quickly.

    Combine their credibility problem with years of silence from the pulpit on abortion and contraception and this is where we are.

    That well more than half of all American Catholics consider abortion to be a very minor social issue is not entirely their fault, but the clergy bear much responsibility.

  4. SanGabriel Avatar
    SanGabriel

    Sadly, there are sites like this one telling Catholics it is “ok” to vote for Obama:
    Roman Catholics for Obama
    http://www.romancatholicsforobama.com/

    A family memeber sent this to me after I continually sent him articles about why, as Catholics, we shouldn’t be voting for Obama. The straw which broke the camel’s back is when I sent him the Rosary Novena for the election (Fr. Corapi). He became enraged and told me: “God wants spiritual fruit, not religious nuts!” and has continued to send me articles that state all of the articles on Obama’s stand on abortion are lies!

    I’m just perplexed as to why SO MANY people are mesmorized by this man and follow him like they do.

  5. stutmann9 Avatar
    stutmann9

    A Catholic who votes for Obama suffers from ignorance-they do not know, or rather choose to remain uninformed about what abortion REALLY IS, and about what Christ (through the church) teaches about the horror of abortion. I would suggest to them, if they dare, to visit Fr. Frank Pavone’s website:
    http://www.priestsforlife.org/ and about the middle of the page by the American flag, click on “America Will Not Reject Abortion Until America SEES Abortion!”
    Can God’s will be discerned as our choice to dismember babies developing in the womb? Can OUR REJECTION of God’s gift of life EVER be RIGHT?! Those of us who are truly Christian know that we must bring our own views under the governance of CHRIST and not the spirit of the age, which is the spirit of the world, the flesh and the devil that says that human choice supercedes God!
    Wake up and get informed and decide for life-YOUR OWN LIFE depends on it!

  6. yblegen Avatar
    yblegen

    Dr. Pedulla, I am sure that most of us reading your words are nodding in aggreement. It should be a no-brainer. But I am also encountering blind, ignorant Catholcs like SanGabriel [is encountering] who don’t even know that they are selling their soul to the slick talker of empty promises.

    edit by mkochan

  7. asdwanamaker Avatar
    asdwanamaker

    yblegen…I think you’re mischaracterizing SanGabriel, who clearly does not support Obama and was talking about family members who do.

    [I have edited yblegen’s comment to reflect what I think was really meant and not be offensive – mkochan]

  8. Lucky Mom of 7 Avatar
    Lucky Mom of 7

    Personally, I’m planning to join Democrats for Life and begin attacking the abortion movement at its source. I can be an angry, militant woman too. Righteous anger is strength.

    Lucky

  9. Lucky Mom of 7 Avatar
    Lucky Mom of 7

    Stutman,

    My experience is that the rational, intelligent people I know who support abortion prefer to stay in denial. I have done my own share of inviting people to view images of abortion and they’re always rationalized away. Denial is so comfortable, you know.

    The change really has to come from those of us who are enlightened. I was having a discussion/debate with one of my friends and I concluded saying, “So what you’re saying is that my child of rape is nothing more than a “choice” and everything I suffered bringing him into the world was pointless folly.” They just don’t get it and they don’t want to. We have to stand at abortion mills and show photos, hold signs, demonstrate, protest and speak at every opportunity. It’s up to us. The responsiblity is ours.

    Lucky

  10. prairiehawk Avatar

    I sure wish our bishops would say “to heck with the tax exemption” and instruct every priest in every diocese in the country to tell his parishioners on Sunday to vote for McCain. Right now Obama is asking, “How many divisions has the Pope?” and is calculating that faithful Catholics aren’t going to be able to sway the election. Well, so far he’s right. I’d like to see him miscalculate badly.

    While we’re being reckless, the same bishops who get McCain into office should tell him to call out the National Guard and close all the abortion mills on the afternoon of his inauguration. Then we’ll have a big constitutional mess to sort out, but thousands of lives will be saved. The constitution doesn’t mean a whole lot anymore, anyway, if it supports abortion on demand.

    If you’re guessing that I’m frustrated, you’d be right.

  11. yblegen Avatar
    yblegen

    Thanks Mary for editing my remarks. I was agreeing with SanGabriel.

  12. elkabrikir Avatar
    elkabrikir

    prairiehawk.

    I agree, dump the tax exempt staus…render unto Ceasar, render unto God…..

    Amen to the Constitutional argument too.

    I’ve thought that if FOCA gets passed into fed law a huge Constitutional crisis will occur because I believer states won’t follow it and the test cases will go to the Supreme Court.

    I actually do believe that we will see violence in the streets, sad to say, as your comment regarding the Nat’l Guard implies. This issue must come to a head. There are too many of us who can no longer tolerate the blood in the streets. I think that prolifers are reaching a critical mass. And I think the bishops just may be able to lead sometime this century. Until then, Father Pavone will lead the charge. St Joan of Arc pray for us.

  13. guitarmom Avatar
    guitarmom

    Lucky Mom of 7

    God bless you. You are a hero. I’m so sorry that people don’t understand what a wonderful thing you did.

    Guitarmom

  14. elkabrikir Avatar
    elkabrikir

    I had the rape “red herring” discussion with one of my kids yesterday. (they initiated it). I reminded them that if abortion had been readily available over the centuries that most probably none of us on this planet today would be here. I believe there is an almost certainty that all of us are the product of rape somewhere in our family tree. For goodness sake, it was a military tactic to leave the conquerors’ “seed” behind.

    Thank you to your life’s witness, Lucky.

    BTW, I suggested to one of my kid’s African American female teachers that she, as a black leader in her community, check out http://www.blackgenocide.org (that’s all I said, I didn’t need a dialogue, just her searching for truth)

    What do we have to lose by taking a risk? Far less than a woman and her baby do….excepting our eternal soul. As Amos said, “Woe to you who recline on your ivory couches….” Don’t get too comfortable during your exile.

  15. candeo Avatar
    candeo

    THANK GOODNESS someone has FINALLY outlined the incredibly namby-pamby, confusing, and even damaging poor-excuse-of-a-document that the bishops have provided us as a “guide” for voting!! I have had the exact experiences with it that the author describes–I have referred “Catholic” friends to it who are pro-B. Hussein Obama, and they have all come back “justified” in their voting choice! It is a DANGEROUS document precisely because it does not make the choice CLEAR enough even in this black-and-white election. I think our bishops have done all the faithful a huge injustice by it, and they should scurry to release an accurate guide before Tuesday, when their negligence may have the effect of costing many more innocent lives.

  16. Lucky Mom of 7 Avatar
    Lucky Mom of 7

    Thanks for the support. 🙂 It wasn’t until a few months ago that I was actually able to recognize the rape. My therapist helped me. She said, “There is the kind we normally think of that involves physical force. Then there’s the kind that involves mind games, coercion, subtle threats, control.” I suffered the second kind. The fact that I won’t use contraception and was charting my cycle was used against me. It was rape and religious abuse. Once I was able to fully understand what happened to me, I started recognizing the strength God gave me to survive it. Until that time I felt abandoned by God. It has empowered me to speak and act.

    I still can’t tell people I know what happened. My husband was my rapist. He’s been in therapy himself and wants to save the marriage. (It’s about more than just the one incident. He’s always been abusive.) I understand the most salient pro-abortion argument because I LIVE IT. I fought despair through my entire pregnancy, even battling the devil the night before I was scheduled to be induced. I hid under the mantle of the Blessed Mother and fought the fantasies that the baby or I or both of us would die in childbirth. I felt the pull to abort, though I would have never done it. This is why I know abortion is a holocaust, but I also know that women who are in trapped in abusive relationships need real alternatives to abortion. Our society has a long way to go. Ending abortion will require battle on many fronts. I am undertaking it.

    Lucky

  17. elkabrikir Avatar
    elkabrikir

    Abortion is Satan’s gift to Man. They can continue exploiting women without fear of recourse.

    I prayed before the abortion mill last Sat. All 5 women I saw left slumped in a crumpled heap in the front seat. One man drove in with rap music wailing and wheels squealing to pick up a post abortive woman!

    Abortion hurts women. Post abortive women need to be encouraged and supported to speak out about their experiences. Jennifer O’Neil has done a great service to the prolife cause. Here is her website: http://afterabortionhealing.org/resources.html

    Many pregnancies occur in the manner that Lucky describes or in similar ways. I doubt that college women recognize that they’ve been raped as in date rape. College women abort at very high rates letting men off the hook and women in despair. Belmont Abbey College in NC has opened a Room at the Inn house so college women can continue their education while pregnant. It is a model of support for girls in a crisis pregnancy.
    http://www.rati.org/content/AboutUs/BoardofDirectors/tabid/61/Default.aspx

    Lucky you’re in my prayers

  18. fwtagge Avatar
    fwtagge

    It is unfortunate that many of our priests and Catholic papers have downplayed, or not CLEARLY addressed the issues. I have engaged a priest in dialog about the elections, and what I have seen as the lack of education given from the pulpit. It seems (I could be wrong) that even many of our priests don’t “get” that life trumps other issues. I have in essence been told that abortion, etc needs to be “at the top”, but must be considered among all the other issues. Seems to me this is — at best — sidestepping the real issue of life.

    We must pray constantly for our leaders — secular and Church — and all voters in this election.

  19. Paul Avatar
    Paul

    Just to show how deeply people are in denial at Mass the other morning, in his homily, Father related that a parishioner, who attends Mass regularly, was making a big deal out of who he was going to vote for. Father told him that voting for a pro-abortion candidate was cooperation with evil, the man replied ‘no its not’. Father then told him that abortion is murder; the man replied ‘not its not’.

    This doesn’t sound like someone who is misinformed but rather someone who pays lip service to ‘I believe in one holy Catholic Church’ the son who says he will serve his father by going to work in the field but does not.

    This really sounds like a spiritual problem, not an informational problem. It is people who will neither seek nor knock but rather be like gods judging for themselves what is good and what is bad. Gen3:5

    Dado

  20. Lucky Mom of 7 Avatar
    Lucky Mom of 7

    elkabrikir,

    Feminists for Life is focusing its efforts on providing for pregnant women on campus. I’ve experienced that too, actually. I was married and living off campus, but it was still very difficult. If felt I had to be apologetic about. None of my professors gave me a hard time about it, but “sex education” on college campuses is endemic and it’s all about avoiding pregnancy. How can it be seen as anything other than a failure?

    Dado, I think it’s both spiritual and intellectual. Showing photos of the remains of aborted babies is probably the most effective way to overcome the intellectual denial. Undoubtedly our priests and bishops are cowards, in general. How can we judge them if we don’t act ourselves?

    Fight the good fight, to the end. Election day isn’t over yet. The McCain campaign is looking for volunteers to call undecided voters. http://www.johnmccain.com.

    Lucky

  21. asdwanamaker Avatar
    asdwanamaker

    I thank and praise the Lord that our pastor has spoken openly about abortion and has urged support for candidates who advocate for the sanctity of life.

    My own personal experience is that many Catholic priests and non-Catholic pro-life Christian pastors are T-E-R-R-I-F-I-E-D of losing their tax-exempt status if they speak about abortion as an issue, even without ever mentioning candidates by name. They are either horribly uninformed about what constitutes political speech in a church, or they are, themselves in a state of denial.

    I confess to not having read Faithful Citizenship, but have for years made my voting decisions first and foremost on which candidates are most likely to secure the rights of the unborn. That said, if the document says, “We are not single issue voters!” I’m actually appalled. I am proud to be a single issue voter because one issue is reflective of a candidate’s thinking on so many others. Imagine if slavery were still legal today, but were highly contentious. Would the bishops have any problem suggesting that it’s preferable to be a single issue voter who votes in support of abolitionist positions? I think not.

  22. goodfriend Avatar
    goodfriend

    Prayer is the strongest weapon we have as Catholics. Should we not be praying for those who do not get it on the abortion issue – bishops, priests, other Catholics and OBAMA – to change their minds and hearts. The Lord asked us to pray for and LOVE all including our leaders, enemies and those who persecute us. Are there Obama lovers out there?

    Peace

  23. laurak Avatar
    laurak

    The weekly newspaper in my diocese published two articles about the presidential election. One supported McCain and the other supported Obama. Both views were presented on equal footing. If the Catholic church is so strongly pro-life, then why are we offering both view points equally, in our own Catholic newspaper? This isn’t a public arena. It is our own Catholic community newspaper. I just don’t understand this. The bishop has not spoken out assertively for life. Why can’t he do this without specifically naming candidates?

    It looks like this election will be decided on the basis of money. And our church is no better, because we won’t speak out assertively for life because of money too. We can not love God and money. Isn’t this what we believe? Even if it hurts us in the process, it is the right thing to do, to vote for life.

    Laura K.

  24. crum12 Avatar
    crum12

    This is the most embarrassing article I’ve ever read. This stance this article takes–that any Democratic Catholic is foolish and barbaric–is an outrageously arrogant stance to take. I’ve always prided myself on the open-mindedness, while staying strong to their issues, of Catholics. I am humiliated.

    Choosing a single issue is a foolish mentality to say the least. What, support abortion while ignoring the poor starving on the streets and the genocide in Darfur? I realize these topics are more difficult to understand for armchair theologians but they still exist.

    Not to mention, what, you think McCain’s elected and badabingbadaboom, no more abortion? This change starts in the heart. I promise you abortion rates will fall very little, back alley ‘doctors’ will just become the ones doing it. I am adamantly against abortion, and I do indeed think it is the government’s job to step in to block it, but I am a barbarian because I am intelligent enough to realize that a “law” doesn’t mark the end of a practice?

    Oh, and Obama “supports terrorism in and out of the womb” proves how outright political this post was.

    Open your eyes. I have no problem with McCain supporters. I have no problem with people who support for McCain on the single issue of abortion. Yes, it’s a big deal. The point I’m trying to convey that it is unCatholic, arrogant, and foolish of you to generalize all people who don’t think identically to you. I would prefer to think Catholics are above that.

  25. Andrew James Avatar
    Andrew James

    Just today I got into an argument with a Catholic woman who used the same old tired liberal argument that abortion is just one issue, and she defended Obama because of his stance on the dealth penalty. The matter very clear; abortion is an intrinsic evil and the death penalty is not. There are times when we are justified taking another life, such as to protect ourselves from grave danger. Abortion is NEVER justified.

  26. Mary Kochan Avatar
    Mary Kochan

    crum12, why don’t you scroll up and click over there to the right on that Obama video and see what his aims are regarding the unborn and then go to here and read this page https://archive.catholicexchange.com/2008/10/29/114298/ and after you have digested that come back and tell us why you think that people who want to see every pro-life gain of the past 30 years overturned aren’t barbaric. Tell us why you think that people who are willing to go along with the dismemberment of over 4000 small human beings every day are not barbaric.

  27. Mark Avatar

    I have no problem not voting for Obama. Implied in that however is that Catholics should vote for McCain, the lesser of two evils. Republicans and McCain do not support the Catholic life position; that all life should be protected from the moment of conception until natural death. Republicans, like McCain have supported exceptions like rape, incest and when the life of the Mother is in danger. McCain told us there would be no litmus test on Supreme Court justices he would appoint on life issues. McCain and Republicans have, for the most part, presided over the killing of nearly 50 million babies and have courted the Catholic vote, but done little the slaughter. McCain and Republicans supported artificial contraception, again against what the Church teaches. And finally, during the debate McCain said he would support, just like Obama embryonic stem cell research, again against the teaching of the Church. The only party then that Catholics could vote for would be Chuck Baldwin, the Constitution Party candidate, which supports all the above-mentioned Church teachings. Voting for McCain or supporting Republicans or Democrats is continuing the pattern of the evil that has brought this country to spiritual ruin for the last 35 years. Remember that Arnold Swartznegger is a Republican too and holds even more radical views that McCain and yet is a member of the GOP. God would not ever call us to be successful with our vote, he would call us only to be faithful to the teachings of his Church and vote for a candidate that supports those teachings.

  28. janemartin Avatar
    janemartin

    My five year old son witnessed to a dear friend recently…He asked her why she had an Obama sticker on her car. She is a kind woman who said, “oh, I just do.” My son said…”But Mrs. Johnson, John McCain will protect the babies. Who will protect them if Barack Obama is President”. She told him not to worry, that God would protect them. (I only know this because she related the conversation to me, with her Obama button proudly worn on her lapel.) I looked into her eyes and said, “We pray everyday for the protection of unborn children.” Not sure if this will stir her or not but pray that it will.

    It is irony of ironies to me that if abortion had been legal 47 years ago, there would likely be no Barack Obama, yet he can not see, nor his supporters, the injustice behind the Freedom of Choice Act. I guess he is just one of the “lucky” ones to be conceived prior to legalization of abortion.

  29. vtanco Avatar
    vtanco

    crum12 says, “Open your eyes. . . . The point I’m trying to convey that it is unCatholic, arrogant, and foolish of you to generalize all people who don’t think identically to you. I would prefer to think Catholics are above that.”

    I would suggest, sir or ma’am, that you might want to open YOUR eyes. And there is nothing wrong with thinking alike, if your thinking is about what is good and true.

    “Complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind” – Phil 2:2

  30. asdwanamaker Avatar
    asdwanamaker

    Like Pontius Pilate, crum12 basically is saying, “What is truth?”

    I recall a statement made by our parish priest at the dinner table once. We were speaking about an issue over which he and our bishop didn’t completely agree. Our priest said, “I didn’t take a vow to agree, but I DID take a vow to be obedient.”

    I don’t necessarily agree with the Church on every single issue, but I AM willing to give her the benefit of the doubt of 2,000 years of experience, wisdom and development of doctrine. To be Catholic is to give ascent to the authority of the Church.

    The authority of the Church says that the single most important political issue of our time is society’s responsibility to recognize the unalienable right to life for every human being, from conception to natural death.

    Catholics are free to disagree, sure. But Catholics are not free to be disobedient. Not with a clear conscience, anyway.

  31. fjindra Avatar

    adswanamaker: the problem with positions taken like crum12 has done is that there is, sad to say, an ill-formed conscience. I have no idea how old crum12 is, but I would guess among the unfortunate age bracket of silly or non-existant catechesis. That leaves poorly formed consciences. A properly formed conscience is one that looks at the teaching autority of the Church as something more than just another voice in the crowd. Yet that seems to be what crom12 thinks of the Magisterium (oooh, scary word!!) That is not to treat everything on an equal basis, but to recognize there is a hieracrchy of issues.

    From the writing of the “Didache” in the 2nd century on, there has been a condemnation of abortion. People who refuse to ackowledge this as a fundamental issue are not only being un-Catholic, but un-American. To bring it forward to the 18th century: what does “we hold these truths to be self evident…” mean when followed by “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”?

    What is needed more than anything else is a relearning of the basics of moral thought and how that is molded by Natural Law and Church teaching and Tradition.

    I could write more, but let me finish with this: as a veteran, I am unwilling to trust someone with the defense of our country who cannot defend the most defenseless in our country.

    Fr. Frank

  32. crum12 Avatar
    crum12

    Mary Kochan: Why don’t YOU actually read what I wrote? I didn’t say Obama was against abortion. I didn’t say anything like that. Tell me why you think that it’s not barbaric to hand money to the rich while the poor starve on the street. Tell me why you think it’s not barbaric to allow genocide in Darfur to continue while we have money to burn. You can’t typify a whole half a nation as barbaric on such a simple basis.

    vtanco: You classified my argument as one that is illogical. I didn’t say agreement was wrong. Obviously then the entire political spectrum would be wrong for agreeing with fellow party members. I said lumping people into categories like that is wrong. Who does that? Racists. Sexists. Prejudicial people of all types. You can’t form such a strong view on a person from a simple look at a complex issue.

    asdwanamaker: You also apparently didn’t read what I wrote. Both parties have stances that disagree and agree with the church, hence why it is such a complex issue that cannot be taken with simple rules. Hate to tell you, but abortion is the only threat to human life…

    fjindra: Did you too not read my post? “I am adamantly against abortion.” The issue here is not whether I am prolife or not. I have already explained, I don’t believe the government outlawing abortion will begin to solve the problem, and so I place my votes instead to problems I know the government can solve.

    I UNDERSTAND that abortion is wrong. Need I say it again? The government has the duty to step in to protect the lives of the unborn. However, if a vote for Obama won’t solve this problem but will solve a plethora of others, there isn’t anything barbaric in that. Matthew 7:1 says, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.” Have people forgotten that? You cannot take such a complex spectrum of issues that cover the issues of this election and view through one narrow viewpoint, over the political line, and arrogantly deem yourself worthy of labeling someone a “barbarian.”

  33. Mary Kochan Avatar
    Mary Kochan

    Yes there are other ways to be barbaric besides in how one treats the unborn.

    However, the litmus test for a politician for a Catholic has to be the life issues because they are foundational.

    Did you read the bishop’s statement that I linked?

    One does not say to any politician, “Well, ok I see you are a rabid pro-abort and you want to remove every legislative protection for the unborn that has been established since Roe v. Wade and I see that you want to overturn conscience protection for medical personnel so that those who don’t want to partiicipate in abortion will have to do so or lose their jobs, but please tell me where do you stand on taxes.” Sorry — that is barbaric.

    What we are supposed to do as Catholics is rule out the running any politician who supports abortion because laws that allow abortion according to the Catechism are not laws at all but a form of violence. Then after we have assembled the remaining candidates who are pro-life, we may choose among them regarding other issues. If Catholics had been consistently doing this for the past 30 years, we would have pro-life candidates running from all parties and then we could legitimately be questioning them on other issues.

  34. Grace Harman Avatar
    Grace Harman

    Abortion kills 1.2 million babies (or more)each year. Nothing else (AIDS, the war, cancer, suicide, death penalty, or even all combined, reaches this amount.
    The president appoints supreme court justices that have the power to support or stop abortion for decades to come. In this way he can save or kill millions.
    The abortionists target the poor, blacks, & other minorities, by their placement of clinics, making it a racist issue as well.
    If you have been aborted you have no other rights or priveleges.(not housing. schools, jobs, savings, or home ownership.) but the gift of life comes from God NOT the government. Government is supposed to protect the people, and we need leaders who know the difference between protecting the people and killing them, as Fr. Pavone says. We need to impeach, vote out, or refuse to elect those who support killing the weak or defensless, and we need to support those who protect life and Christian values – now – before we have lost our freedoms through foolish or selfish choices..

  35. crum12 Avatar
    crum12

    Look, Mary Kochan, I’m not saying that one shouldn’t use abortion as a litmus test for choosing a candidate. That’s your prerogative. I really am absolutely fine if you choose to do that, in fact, it’s probably good that people like you DO represent a strong voice in politics so that change CAN be effected.

    However, using Democrat/Republican as a litmus test for whether or not a person is barbaric is utterly wrong. From your last response, I believe we’re on different wavelengths. I’m not pro-choice or saying that using a single issue as a way to find a candidate. What I am saying is there is no clear way for a human being to call another a barbarian because of a simplified view on a very, very complex issue- politics.

    I would hope that THIS of all places would be last to judge and first to tolerate.

  36. Mary Kochan Avatar
    Mary Kochan

    But we are NOT using Democrat/ Republican as a litmus test; we ARE using abortion.

    It is NOT OUR FAULT that the Democrats have decided to become the party of death for the unborn.

    Anyone who puts party loyalty above saving the babies is a barbarian. If everything else were the same about their policies, but their respecitve positions on abortion were opposite of what they really are, I would have voted for Obama.

    Try this? Can you simply say whether abortion is barbaric?

  37. crum12 Avatar
    crum12

    Maybe those who have commented have misinterpreted what I’ve said. The issue I take it that the article declares that barbarians vote Democratic.

    I wholly agree that the PRACTICE of abortion is utterly barbaric. But I will not declare that people who support people who support abortion for other reasons are barbaric. I refuse to even declare proponents of abortion barbaric; I simply believe they are misled. A human simply cannot judge another person in this way, it’s foolish, arrogant, and unfair. I promise my vote would be toward McCain if I actually believed that he, in office, would be the key to ending abortion. I do not; yet I am not a barbarian.

    I will declare abortion in itself sick and barbaric, however. We can agree there.

  38. Mary Kochan Avatar
    Mary Kochan

    So because you think it is sick and barbaric, you are going to vote for someone who will force us to pay for it through our tax dollars?

    Because you think it is sick and barbaric, you will vote for someone who promises to overturn every law limiting it?

    Because you think it is sick and barbaric, you will vote for someone who wants to remove the rights of doctors and nurses not to participate in it?

    Because you think it is sick and barbaric you will vote for a man who has promised to appoint judges who will extend the abortion reign of terror over the unborn in this country?

    Because you think it is sick and barbaric you reject voting for a candidate that
    has a 100% pro-life voting record and vote instead for the one that has the hightest rating from NARAL?

    Because you think it is sick and barbaric, you think you should ignore the teaching of the Church regarding voting for a pro-abortion candidate? You think it is ok to ignore the teaching that we must try with our vote to limit this evil even if we cannot completely stop it?

    You announce to us that will do all in the power of your vote to extend and enshrine in law for decades a practice that you yourself admit is sick and barbaric, yet you declare to us that we have no right to judge you as being a barbarian?

    Amazing.

    Trust me, our judgement of you is the least of your worries.

  39. crum12 Avatar
    crum12

    I’m going to ignore your irrelevant comments.

    THE POINT I AM GETTING ACROSS IS THAT YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO JUDGE ANYONE. I don’t know who you think you are, but you cannot judge my own sense of morality unless you are GOD HIMSELF. I have my own reasons. I am absolutely astounded that you can be so self-righteous in your sanctimony, I really am. You are a human being. It is not your place to call anyone a barbarian or condemn anyone to Hell. Go read Matthew 7. You can say my vote is wrong all you want, I don’t care. I don’t call you a barbarian for voting for a candidate who condones the death penalty, more pointless and deadly wars, and ignoring genocide around the world. It is not my place.

    So, I would like to see in your next post a detailed description of what gives you the right to judge.

  40. Mary Kochan Avatar
    Mary Kochan

    Neither the death penalty, nor war are INTRINSIC EVILS.

    Catholics may, according to Church teaching, support either or both of them at certain times and places for certain reasons. Haven’t you ever heard of “just war doctrine”? Although the Church protests use of the dp in most cases, the Church recognizes the right of the state to sometimes impose it. Go read your Catechism.

    Abortion is an INTRINSIC EVIL. That is why there is no “just abortion doctrine”? It is always wrong and can never be supported for any reason. The Church teaches that absolutely no one can ever under any circumstance justify it, nor can it be legally supported. It must be always and everywhere opposed AND CATHOLICS ARE OBLIGATED TO SEE TO IT THAT THE UNBORN ARE PROTECTED BY LAW! Go read your Catechism.

    It is sheer stupidity to bring in “genocide” as an excuse for your anti-Catholic position. That would only apply if John McCain were advocating genocide — speaking of it approvingly and making promises that he would support and expand genocide throughout the world if elected. Right now the only candidate supporting genocide is Barak Obama — abortion is genocide.

    And finally, cut the crap about how I may not “judge” you. The only thing that I may not judge is your eternal soul. I am well within my rights to judge your words as stupid and wicked. I am well within my rights to judge your position as barbaric. The burden of proof according to Church teaching, lies with you, Buster. You have to supply a proportionate reason — proportionate to the deaths of over a millions innocent children a year, which would be greatly expanded here and abroad under Obama — in order to justify voting for him.

    It is not my fault that you have been so lax in forming your conscience and your intellect as a Catholic so that your brain has turned into mush and you have decided to let your emotions run you intead of the reason and intellect that God gave you. Now you wish to impose upon me this mushiheadedness that cannot call things what they are because it recoils from the plain truth of things. It is not my fault that the only words of scripture you know are the ones that Christ addressed to the pharisees about judging and you are worried about Catholics seeming “intolerant.”

    Jesus repeatedly taught men to judge rightly, insisting they “judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24) and He praised a man who “rightly judged” (Luke 7:43). St. Paul shamed the Corinthian Christians because no one among them was willing to “judge the smallest matters” (1 Cor. 6:2). As the Apostle wrote, “He who is spiritual judges all things” for “we have the mind of Christ” (1 Cor. 2:15‑16).

    It is not my fault that you have fallen under the spell of the heresy that robs Christians of discernment. God warns against “hypocrisy” commanding men to “abhor what is evil” (Rom. 12:9). Yet to abhor evil, someone must first judge evil. The Church has already judged abortion as evil and voting for abortion-promoting candidates as evil — therefor I am on perfectly safe ground judging your words and your intended action in support of abortion as evil (i.e. barbaric). It must never be tolerated. You don’t have a leg to stand on.

    And BTW, I do not tolerate you. I love you. We are commanded by God to LOVE ONE ANOTHER, not tolerate one another. I love you and do not wish you to endanger your soul by your advocation of an intrinsic evil. I love others who might be caused to stumble by your excuses for evil and so I oppose you, just as St. Paul opposed St. Peter when St. Peter’s actions were going to cause others to stumble (i.e. to be scandalized). That is the truly loving thing to do.

  41. crum12 Avatar
    crum12

    I am fully aware of that, thanks a lot. The point I was attempting to make is reasons can be found to label you a ‘barbarian’ too, I just choose not to do it.

    “I am well within my rights to judge your words as stupid and wicked. I am well within my rights to judge your position as barbaric.” Yes, you are. However, that is not what you are doing. You are judging me… along with half the people in the country… as barbarians doomed to Hell. That is what I have a problem with. That is neither tolerating nor loving. You can judge someone’s soul without actually sending them to Hell, by labeling them a barbarian you judge them as well.

    Luke 7:43 and 1 Corinthians 6:2 do not refer to the judgment of a person, it refers to the judgment of a situation… don’t really know what else to say there other than that it’s entirely irrelevant.
    1 Corinthians 2:15-16 refers to the judgment in a decision, not of a person as well.

    John 7:24, on the other hand, I think actually helps my case.

    But regardless, you didn’t include your list of why you have the right to judge me.

  42. Mary Kochan Avatar
    Mary Kochan

    I have not judged your soul. I have repeatedly said that I judge your words and actions. Caling someone a barbarian, is not the same as condemning him to hell.

    It is the Church that warns you that your cooperation with an intrinsic evil endangers your soul.

    Barbarians is a term rightly descibing those who promote or defend barbarism. Since abortion is barbaric, those who would promote it through election of the most pro-abortion executive ever in this country are quite rightly termed barbarians. It is called connecting the dots. It is not rocket science. As the author said, “Barbaric actions are what make barbaric people, and barbarians even come in the polite variety.”

    The writer of this article can make that judgement and I can do it because we are not mesmerized. We are not morally stupid. We are not blinded by party loyalty. We are reasonable and truthful and we can call things by their names.

    We not only CAN do it; we have a moral obligation to do it.

    You have no reason to call me a barbarian, because I am working to limit evil not expand it. You have given me every reason to call you a barbarian. I have not told you you are going to hell. I hope not, but I have a moral obligation to warn you that your knowing support of a pro-abortion candidate endangers your soul. That is the truth. It may make you feel uuncomfortable; it may make you squirm. But it is the truth.

    You can always repent.

    (And you are polite.)

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