Catholic Exchange

Why Humility Opens Doors

Written by

Marcellino D’Ambrosio, Ph.D.

in

"Nice guys finish last," says the world.  "The last will be first," replies Jesus.

My guess is that the Lord of creation knows best who really wins in the end.  And he says in  yesterday's gospel, "whoever exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted" (Luke 14:11).

To understand why the humble get ahead and why the meek shall inherit the earth, we need to be sure that we understand what humility and meekness really are. 

Humility does not mean looking down on oneself or thinking ill of oneself.  It really means not thinking of oneself very much at all.

The humble are free to forget themselves because they are secure.  They accept the fact that, as creatures, they are small, vulnerable, and not ultimately in control.  But they know there is a Creator who is great, omnipotent, and totally in control.  And they know that they've been made in the image and likeness of that Creator.  That gives them a dignity that they don't have to earn and can never be taken away.  Though they've tarnished the divine likeness through sin, they know that the Creator came down from the heights of heaven to become human and fix what they couldn't fix.

So when they mess up, the humble don't have to cover up.  They just say "Please forgive me," give thanks for God's mercy, and move on.  And when their creaturely limitations cause them to fail, they are not surprised.  They realize that they are not God.

All this is simply a way of saying that the humble are in touch with reality.  If the definition of insanity is being out of touch with reality, then our proud world with its "nice guys finish last" illusion is clearly insane.

Since the humble are secure, they are strong.  And since they have nothing to prove, they don't have to flaunt their strength or use it to dominate others.  Humility leads to meekness.  And meekness is not weakness.  Rather, it is strength under control, power used to build up rather than tear down.

The humble are not threatened either by God's greatness or the reflection of that greatness in the talents of others.  In fact, this is what naturally catches their eye and absorbs their attention — the goodness of God, wherever it may be found.

The form of prayer that extols God's goodness is called praise.  The activity that honors God's goodness in other people is called affirmation.  The humble take delight in praising God and affirming people.

The reason the humble take the last place of honor at the table is not because they think ill of themselves, but because they are preoccupied with honoring others.  And the reason people ask them to move higher is because they know this admirable attitude is rare.  In fact it is actually divine.  It is exactly the way the three Divine Persons relate to each other.  The Father glorifies the Son, the Son glorifies the Father, and the Spirit is so preoccupied with glorifying the Father and the Son that most of us feel we really don't know much about Him.

"An attentive ear is a wise man's joy" (Sir 3:28).  The humble are able truly to listen to another with genuine interest and delight in the other's goodness.  The humble are the people who give you their undivided attention and make you feel special and appreciated.  You love to have them around.  You love to work hard for them.  You cheer when they are honored.

The proud, on the other hand, are so self-absorbed that their conversations become monologues.  When you are speaking, they are not listening.  They are just thinking about what they are going to say next.  Eventually you smile, yawn, and do your best to get away from them.  You roll your eyes when they brag of their exploits.  If you work for them, you do the minimum required while looking for a better job.  So those who exalt themselves are ultimately left alone.  But those who humble themselves gather a crowd of admirers.

When asked to name the four Cardinal Virtues, St. Bernard of Clairvaux replied "humility, humility, humility, and humility."  He said this because the word "cardinal" means "hinge."  And everything hinges on humility.  Humility opens the door to the hearts of others and to the heart of God.

Comments

  1. Guest Avatar
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    I really like Dr.A's article. It makes me reflect on a number of things.

     One is the manner in which we as disciples of Christ converse with, attempt to witness to, and write about non-believers.

     Dr. A says the truly humble are secure because they deeply know God is control. That securuty, it seems to me, ought to reflect itself in our conversation and our overall "take" on non-believers.

    The truly humble, rather than always keeping non-believers in their gun sites, are able to affirm their goodness. Since the truly humble are secure in God's soverenty and providenctial care towards the eschaton, the truly humble aren't so strident and anxious about the future nor about the non-believers out there.

    Rather,the humble are capacitated by Christ to recognize and even affirm the " reflected talents of others", says Dr. A. And there is a plethora of "reflected talents" and goodness in the many non-believers of various stripes out there. 

    Since secure, the humble really have nothing to "prove" of themselves. Thus, they have no absolutely stock in calling people "the infidel" or in denigrating them to the core as "irrational amd incoherent."

    And as secure, the truly humble are not threatened by others. Rather than acting out one's underlying sense of insecurity in God by attacking and denigrating others's non-belief, even though it be  sin, the truly humble are not compelled always to paint the non-believer in partum pejoraum.

    Yet how many "Christians" prowl about like the lion, all too ready and eager to leap out against them, to "expose" the non-believers fallen will ; and to powerfully " bring the Gospel to bear" on them.

    Rather, the truly humble are "naturally" uninterested in partum pejorum portaryals of the other because not "threatened either by God's greatness or the reflected talents of others".

     Rather you will find the truly humble person as one noticably affirming and recognizing the good in others, as Dr. A says. Yes, the good found even in the non-beliver.

    This natural picking out and recognizing the good of others "wherever it is found" and the "natural" affirmation of the other is a disticntive mark of the truly humble – an affirmer not a negator.The contrary, sadly, is so often the case in Christianity. 

    For it is "natural" for the humble to give way place at the banquet table as  Luke 14 as Our Lord teaches us. Part of giving way to place to the other would, it seems to me, entails affirmation of the good "wherever it is found".

     Humility then eschews the penchant for constructing recurring commentaries on the falleness and the non-belief of others. He is secure and meek, knows that only by the grace of God does he believe, trusts, and is free to affirm the other and the banquet.  

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    I liked it also. Humility really is a cardinal virtue; a "hinge" which opens doors.

  3. Guest Avatar
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    Iwall, it is you who are preoccupied with the non-believer and not Mark. In a dozen different ways in your comment you say as much. Now there's nothing wrong with that and in fact it's a missionary attitude toward the atheist. My guess is that you run into a lot of them in the lofty perches of academia. My issue with that lot is not that they are entitled to their belief or non-belief but that they are in positions to infect the impressionable. The prowling is usually done by those who want to infect. We in opposition take the humble role of fighting off the infection.

  4. Guest Avatar
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    Protect: It is indeed much more rewrding for all to be appropriately affirming of others, as was the Lord, no?

    Later.

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    Goral: You are way off base. You have crossed the line.

    I have only responded to the defense of an apparently on-going assault against atheists, non-believers, humanists, gays, et.al which is put forth in very direct and not so direct ways recurringly by certain ones on this site.

    Yes, I am very concerned about the specious and ersatz arguments deployed here and the spreading of venom all supposedly in His name!

    Are you suffering from paranoia?  

    "That lot" ??? – whatever such an ambiguous term might mean – is trying to infect you? Or just who?  

    Is there an atheist conspiracy out there?

    That lot??? Really, goral?

    That lot! Are you referring to my esteemed academic colleagues and friends in the departments of philosophy and religion, faithfully continuing the trademark and unsavory habit of many CE's posters which is to rush to summary judgement from afar and without knowing anything?

    That lot! Are you perhaps referring to my fellow physicians who labor tirelessly with me each day? Or perhaps to my academic colleagues at the medical school?

    You persume to know that I " run into a lot of them { a lot of them =s "That lot" ?} in the lofty perches of academia" so you say.

    So you first cast aspersions on my associates without knowing them or their views, and then cast aspersions on academia without knowing anything of that either, or I so I must assume given your ascerbic remarks.

    You verbal behavior is exactly what I am referring to and denouncing. 

    What a nice way to affirm others.

    What a great Chrsitian you must be.

    Wow! I am so impressed. 

    I'm sure others on this site will be too.

      

     

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    “I have only responded to the defense of an apparently on-going assault against atheists, non-believers, humanists, gays, et.al which is put forth in very direct and not so direct ways recurringly by certain ones on this site.”

    Iwall, I’m sure there are pockets of this going on. I occasionally let loose an insensitive remark but Dr D’Ambrosio’s article certainly didn’t make reference to any of the topics that we label as paranoiac against each other. I just picked up on your “doth protest too much” defense of the non-believers. In response I posit that a humble Christian in the ranks of “that lot” would be relegated to the back of the bus as we always see happening in academia. I’ve witnessed the venom and disrespect that is hurled at speakers in the academia. On the other hand humanists and non-Christian guests are always treated well in Christian circles. You’re being presumptuous when you include yourself and your esteemed colleagues in the company of “that lot” (intentional ambiguity for "if the shoe fits….") I could not put you or your associates into that category because I don’t know enough. Au contraire, I’m happy that there are even self-styled Christians like yourself in those circles because I detect a certain balance in your academic jargon and it’s good that you have influence in these enclaves that are anything but humble.

    Why would I want to impress you or anyone else? The beauty of this forum is our anonymity which allows us to be transparent but respectfully so. If I was somewhat imposing and rash with my interpretation of your comment, you have my apology. I do not apologize to those who pretend to have the answers to life's big questions. As Chesterton said: "All the profound questions in life should be asked with one syllable words, the answers should be one syllable also."

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    lwall,

    We all fall short of the mark set forth for us.  The falling short is a universal phenomenon (everyone in the world falls short).  Some groups recognize that falling short is undesirable and work to avoid it, but fail nonetheless.  Some groups recognize that falling short is undesirable, but since it is inevitable, resign themselves to falling short and resent those who would speak out and warn those that falling short might be undesirable.

    If you knew a friend was drinking himself to death, wouldn't you try to get him to warn him, get him help through a detox program, and then provide him with a support system to keep him from drinking again?  If your friend was really an alcoholic, he would resent your "help", resent your intrusion, and it might even cause him to stop being your friend.  But, he might also seek the help that you suggest/provide and learn to live.  Why should it be different if someone is engaging in an activity that will lead to them to lose their eternal life?  Wouldn't a friend be obligated to advising, helping, and pointing towards a better way?

    I don't know you, but Christ calls me to love you anyway because you are a child of God.  A lot of the time, Christ asks us to do things that are difficult and seem ridiculous, but I have to try to do them.  In order to love you (be charitable to you), it may take an enormous amount of effort and concentration and I would probably struggle with it and resort to "un-Christian" behavior in response to your arrogance, sarcasm, and hatefulness.  I think that goral was engaged in the same struggle while responding to your posts.

     

    Yours in Christ,

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    lwall,

    Protect: It is indeed much more rewrding for all to be appropriately affirming of others, as was the Lord, no?

     

    I would suggest that our Lord was always charitable and loving to others, especially sinners (all of us).  However, he didn't hesitate to call a sin a sin and to let the sinner know that what they were doing was sinful and that they should "go and sin no more".  He would grant forgiveness for those who repented, but he admonished, not affirmed, the sin of the sinner.  To those who would encourage those, either through commission or omission, to sin, He was especially admonishing.

     

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    Although from most of society one finds too little admonishing (unless it is to admonish those who variously espouse Truth as an objective thing) and too much "affirming our okayness."  But from many of us within the Church one finds too much admonishing and too little affirming.

    And there needs to be more humility all the way around.

    Seems to me, anyways.

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    mamreilly: Yes, of course.

    Now I doubt that neither you nor I would revel at the prospect of all Christians in the world simultaneously and each day going round eyeing the behavior and attitides of everyone else, other Christians included, pointing out the degree of sinfulness of actions and thoughts, be it small or great. Sounding aloud in a Cecil B. DeMill Christ -like tonality, "Go. Sin no more." Play it out a bit in the imagination. It gets pretty laughable.

     

    There would be not enough time in the day to ferret out and denounce the daily and very ubiquitous sins of all Chrsitians in the world.

    Surely there is much more fruitful dialogue with our fellow Christians to be had than the marking of each others's sins. Jesus spent precious little time doing it.

    As with our fellow Chrsitians, so with our fellow non-believers. I can think of nothing much more futile than pointing out sin to someone for whom neither God nor sin are live options. What then to do with them – cast them to the sea? Yes, for some. No, for me.

    We are a human community like it or not.

    I can, however, envisage a productive dialogue with non-believers concerning things both of us hold dear albeit for differnt reasons, such as a host of social justice issues for starters.  

    I also see little to no value in continuing to paint black those who are not graced with faith – as being incoherent, irrational, interiorly troubled, willful, unyielding before the facts, etc.

     

    What arrogance and pride exudes from them who do!

    What an embarassment to the faith.    

  11. Guest Avatar
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    We all have bad days and sometimes our words don’t always convey our intentions. 

    Marcellino d'Ambrosio has written several excellent essays about humility.

    Humility is fundamental to all the virtues.  It’s a beginning.  When we began our first day of school we proceeded carefully.  We were not too proud to ask questions and follow instructions.  We were willing to take risks (a sign of hope) to achieve our goals.  

    Humility works in a similar way in our spiritual growth.  Proceed carefully…ask questions…follow instructions.  Don’t be afraid to ask for advice.  When we make mistakes, don’t be too proud to admit it.  Be willing to try again.  Have the confidence to take risks to achieve our spiritual goals.

    Dr. d'Amborosio from the article: So when they mess up, the humble don't have to cover up.  They just say "Please forgive me," give thanks for God's mercy, and move on.  And when their creaturely limitations cause them to fail, they are not surprised.  They realize that they are not God.

    Peace to all.

  12. Guest Avatar
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    "The activity that honors God's goodness in other people is called affirmation.  The humble take delight in praising God and affirming people." To quote just a couple of sentences from the text. Throughout the article the virtue of humility is tied to the Creator God. This is authentic humility with a proper reference. To argue it's merits apart from God is the real exercise in futility. Should we then not apply it to those who don't see it our way? Perish the thought. Should we allow those who disagree with this Christian concept to define humility by and on their terms? God forbid!

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    lwall,

    Couple of passages from the Bible that might be appropriate.  The first deals with how we are called to deal with non-believers and those who obstinately reject the Truth.

    "Therefore, be imitators of God, as beloved children.  And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.   …Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater) has any inheritance in the kingdom of God.  Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.  Therefore, do not associate with them, for once you were darkness, but now you are the light in the Lord; walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and true) and try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord.  Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.  For it is a shame even to speak of the things that they do in secret; but when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.  (Eph 5:1-2, 5-13)

    The next one is from our Lord when he was warning his disciples about preaching the Good News to those whose hearts are hardened against the Truth:

     "Do not give dogs what is holy; and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under foot and turn to attack you." (Mt 7:6) 

    Here's one from St. Paul talking about the wise and worldly:

    "For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is the power of God.  For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwart."  Where is the wise man?  Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age?  Had not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?"  (1 Cor 1: 18-20) 

    I'm not sure why you would place so much stock in the opinions and thoughts of people that don't share the most fundamental beliefs that we hold true?  If you can't agree on the basic truth that we were created by a all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving God for the sole purpose of knowing, loving, and serving Him on this earth so that we can spend the rest of eternity with Him in Heaven, then what value is their opinion on "social issues"?  If they are wise in the world, but foolish in the eyes of God, then why would I want to listen/follow their counsel on issues of morality, ethics, or listen to their flawed view of the issues of the world? 

    Here's one more where Paul is warning against "mixed" marriages between believers and unbelievers.  It doesn't just apply to marriages, but all of our associations:

    "Do not be mismated with unbelievers.  For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity?  Or what fellowship has light with darkness?  What accord has Christ with Be'lial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever?  What agreement has the temple of God with idols?" (2 Cor 6: 14-16)

    One of the first things I learned in logic class is that if you can't agree with someone on the premise, than any argument or discussion about the conclusions based on that premise that is a waste of carbon (breath).

    What is the premise? That "…God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ… chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him.  He destined us in love to be his sons and daughters through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace which he freely bestowed upon us in the Beloved.  In him we  have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace which he lavished upon us.  For he made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of his will, according to his purpose which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth." (Eph 1:3-10)

    Don't take this the wrong way, but wouldn't my time be better spent working with people who share a common faith to solve the problems of our families and communities than with people that would ridicule and mock our Lord, denigrate our faith as a "delusion of God", and insist that our religious views have no place in the discussion of public policy or "issues"?  They may be the smartest people in the world, but if their wisdom has caused them to reject the one thing that is important, than I don't really put any stock in what their ideas are about "solving the world's problems".  But, I am going to know what they're saying so I can warn other believers about them…

    Yours in Christ,

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    goral : We offer affirmation, we get into relation with, we encourage, dialogue with, and we listen to all those whom God has created in His image. All goodness, wherever it is found is, of the Creator. You are required to recognize God in all instances of goodness. Duh!

    Goodness as a reflection of the Creator is not an exclusive possession of Christianity. When are Catholics on this site ever going to learn this!

    Besides, who told you to make an isolated holy fortress of yourself! Scripture,Tradition? References please.

    You would not affirm the goodness of others unless sharing your views? You exclaim in an aire of holy shock, " Perish the thought."

    You have a very strange idea of Chrsit, who invited all types to the table. Did they all convert? Hardly.

    The text refers to the truly humble as affirmimg the goodness in people wherever it {goodness} is found." The humble can do this, because they are absent the pride that would otherwise have allowed them to prop themselves up on a holy pedestal just as you have done of yourself.

    The truly humble are not shaken to the core nor threatened by  the goodness of non-believers, because the truly humble also possess meekness. You apparently do not.

    They don't say to themselves nonsense such as , " Oh darn! That agnostic [ humanist,Jew, Muslim] over there is leading a fund raiser for the ghetto gradeschool kids's book fund. I thought goodness was only in our hands!"  See the arrticle.

    You, however, in your prideful self-enclosed fortress , would constrain "wherever found" to mean "wherever found within Christian circles only".

    Have you never felt the goodness of a friend or acquaintance from India? Have you never been around Jews, Muslims, agnostics, atheists so-called, Hindus,….of them all are you willing to say, "Ah! It is only I who am good; it is only I in my reflection of God that should be affirmed."

    There is no doubt that any Catholic educated in the faith knows that there is goodness in the Jew, Buddhist, Protestant, Hindu, the humanist, and, yes, even in the [ some] atheist who seeks to live a good life. Check VII documents and CCC.

    Again. Goodness is not a Christian exclusive!!

    Your post is a valuable example of the type of Christian arrogance and exclusivity done "in the name of Christ!" that apparently draws many of the same ilk to congegate on this site. It should be denounced. It is patently an anti-Christian view and one of the root causes of our culture's mounting negative opinion of Christianity and the Church. The horrofic sex scandals are rate right up there also, especially the blind eye and permission given to  perpetrators by Bishops.

    Do you really care to build a community of goodness on this earth, or sit in judgement of others?

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    lwall,

    Do you believe that a person who rejects that Faith will go to heaven simply because they lead a good life?   Before you answer, I am not asking about someone who, through no fault of their own, is not exposed to the Truth of the Gospel. 

     

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    The "holy shock" Iwall is literary drama and if you read the sentence correctly you'll understand that we definitley need to apply humility in our interaction with non-believers. The people of different faiths that you cite are believers who have a lot in common with us. The late great JP2 went out to all of them in humility. We Catholics traditionally do the same. Dr. D'Amrosio is talking about humility in Christian context. St. Bernard is a doctor of the Catholic Church. When the topic turns to Native Americans and their understanding of humility we can explore it then, because they also have it. From my "prideful, self-enclosed fortress" I dared make the statement that if one is looking for humility then one need not look in academia. But on a good day it can sometimes be found even there. That's what got you 'unhinged', Iwall. Hmm?!

    Why bring up the topic of the horrific sex scandals in this exchange? Because it's another favorite of the anti-church and anti-Catholic "lot", as I humbly call them.

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    goral: I bring up sex scandals of the Church within the context of my post, which context refers to the turn-off negativity, exclusivity, arrogance, and scandal of the Church which you and your ilk are perpetrating. Both your attitude and, God knows, probably your actions towards non-believers too rank up there as scandal.

    I don't think for one second that D'Ambrosio would restrict affirmation, dialogue, friendship, and humility to just our our fellow Christians. You are so sure about it?  Why don't you ask him!

      would be shocked if he should agree with you and say that his article  applies only to Christians; that affirmation of others, recognizing their goodness, engaging in dialogue, etc. are meant for Christian to Chrisitian only! 

    You – in this supercilious arrogance and "holier- than -thou fortress" ypu have built  -are a scandal to the Christ that countless millions know and love.

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    mamreilly:  Your barrage of quotes leaves me with the following commentary to make:

    1. I teach logic… but not this semester.

    2. Scripture does not hold equal wieght from book to book. Some scripture emerged as a polemical and defensive commentary within the caldron of persecution and temple exclusion. You should know and recognize this. It's language tells the story. It is not applicable in our context. Some of your quotes are like that.

    3. The "darkness" and "unfruitful works of darkness" can not and do not refer to the goodness of God reflected by His creatues, be they believers, Jews, Muslims, atheists, agnostics, humanists.

    Again: Christians do not have an exclusive right to all goodness!!!.

    That would contradict the inherent goodness of the human race despite the woundedness off the so-called Fall. It also contradicts the Church's teaching on natural law. Besides, it is empirically contardictory to our human experience. Good exists outside Christianity.

    I 'm sorry. I know just how very special and holy you want to be and what a good soldier for Christ you must aspire to…knocking down unbelievers wherever they may be……

    4. Most of your quotes address how to live as a disciple of Christ and are intended for the exhoratation a nd instruction of believers within the churches Paul is adressing. They are pastoral and do not address the issue at hand.

    5.. " Empty works" is not a reference to the many, many good works of non-believers who, by the way, don't spend their time worrying about their belief structures and justifications etc. because they – at least very many – possess a natural humanistic tendency to care for the needs and goods of others. Good is not synonymous with religious. One does not have to believe in God to do good. Read the VII documentsand CCC.

    6. Your own quote exposes your error: " The fruit of light is found in all that is good."

     

    I suppose you would have sent back the 22 million dollar check donated by an avowed atheist to the Archdiocese of New York's paraochial schools because as an atheist he was "of the world", or was consorting with the forces of darkness, or did not share your love of the Lord. Well, by your own arguments you are committed to send back the check ! The Church did not send it back. Thank God that the Church and you just don't agree!!!

     

     

     

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    lwall,

    Wow.

    #2 – You're kidding, right?  The Catholic Church teaches that the Word of God (all 73 books of the Bible) are inspired by the God through the Holy Spirit and therefore, perfect, inerrant, and non-contradictory.  If you don't agree with that…  there's no point in continuing this discussion.

    I'll pray for you.  You are obviously extremely angry and bitter for some reason and have issues with your Catholic faith (I assume that you profess to be a Catholic; otherwise why would you care what is said on a Catholic website) and the Church.  You've obviously taken it upon yourself to interpret the Bible, the Catechism, and Vatican II (if you've even read AND studied them) from your own angered and embittered perspective rather than seeking true understanding through the actual teachings Catholic Church. 

    And, by the way, no, I wouldn't have and you have no basis for making your last statement.    But then again, you've missed the point that everyone has tried to make to you throughout this discussion and then thrown out some out-of-left field comment at the end of every post so you can say "THERE, SEE HOW STUPID YOU ARE?" 

     

    Have a beautiful day.  

     

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    mamreilly: You are dead wrong! Any modicum of reading and studying would reveal to you that Church's teaching on scripture weighting is exacctly as I have said.

    I doubt you have studied the Pontifical Commisssion's documents on Biblical interpretation. You are opinionated without justification. Basically, you haven't a clue about what you are saying on this post. It is truly frigtening!  You are a pseudo-Christian bigot.

    You stupidly accuse me of subjective interpretation?

    Here is a quote from LG 16 referring to the goodness and the salvation of non-believers which, for some reason, your prejudiced little heart and brain just can't accept:  "..those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways." …..

    The section lists first the Jews, then the Moslems, and then those who have no explicit knowledge of God or of the Gospel but rather live according to their humanistic consciences, " Those who, though who no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel…but, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it throught he dictates of their conscience –those too may acheive eternal salvation."

    Referring again to non-believers, " Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life." 

    As to your idiotic and ignorant insistence that we must avoid non-believers, explicitly GS 21 states , " Although she rejects atheism, she [ the Church]  nevertheless sincerely proclaims that all men, those who believe as well as those who do not, should help to establish right order in this world where all live together. This certainly cannot be done without a dialogue that is sincere and prudent. The Church therefore deplores the discrimination between believers and nonbelievers…"

    So before you start accusing me or anyone of having trouble with the Church, I suggest you get some basic knowkedge first.  It seems that you are the one who has trouble with the Church

    By the way, you skirted my questiion about the 22 million dollar check from the atheist donor…. hmmmmm!! 

     

     

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    lwall,

    You're right.  You win.

    And I was wrong – you're not angry or bitter.

    God bless.

  22. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    mamreilly: Your last post is a typical CE non-response and brush off when backed into a corner and embarrassed.

    Having twice evaded the "22 million dollar question" as well as not responding to the quotes from VII in total support of my claims, you shamefully end your little grandstanding with a dismissive irony.

    It probably fools a fwe peiple. Not the astute ones, however.

    I am almost ready to say that I hope never to encounter the likes of you again.  That would be wrong of me.

    Even for someome as close minded and self- aggrandizing as you – and ignorant at the same time! – nonetheless, there still is hope!  

  23. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    I was neither embarrassed nor backed into a corner.  I chose not to continue a pointless discussion that would laden with anger and insults. 

    Nor was I using irony.  I was being sarcastic. 

    I would have accepted the 22 million dollar check.  It doesn't have relevance to the points I was trying to make and that you were so effective in ignoring during your sermon on the superiority and value of the opinions and actions of unbelievers over practising members of the Church. 

    Thank you for showing me how to be truly humble and charitable through your example.  While I would hesitate to use the techniques you showed me in discussions within the Church, perhaps they will be useful and fruitful as I engage in future dialogue with unbelievers.  I'm sure that they will elicit a positive and fruitful response.

    Thank you also for showing me how not to be close-minded or self-aggrandizing.  I will re-read your posts and attempt to learn how I should have behaved throughout this entire discussion.

    I will not be dishonest and tell you that I would hope that we could continue this discussion/encounter, because I don't.  I am very aware that I am fallen and I find it very hard to love those that are so offensive, but I realize that God loves you even if I don't, much as He loves me even if you don't.  I will end this, again, by telling you that I will pray for you and ask you to pray for me that we can truly approach each other in humility and charity.  Until then, it is best if we avoid this occasion of sin.

    Yours in Christ, 

     

     

  24. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    mamreilly: Yes, your entire project and all your claims made on this site were thoroughly embarrassed. You were shown to be wrong hearted and wrong minded. You made no comments about the exerpts from VII even now! Rather,you hide behind a veil of sarcasm when shown that your beliefs and attitudes do not conform to Catholic teaching.

    You should recant your views and apologize to all people of good will evethough they may not be Christians. You should apologize to me.

     

    The 22 million dollar question was very relevant since it was intended to cause you to raelize the absurdity of your position. As a real life event, this massive act of goodness by an atheist was intended for you to think through your own position's many deleterious spiritual and worldly implications.

    The discussion was indeed pointless so long as you persisted in your obstinance and pride. And of course this you did. Part of wisdfom is knowing when you don't know. You lack that part of wisdom.

    The discussion was point filled if you could have been brought to a more Christ -like dispositon and activity towards your fellow human beings other than casting them as the infidel, or as steeped in darkness, or as unworthy of your time and interaction, etc ad nauseum.

    You did  not say these things? Oh yes. I suggest you go back and take another look at your posts. 

     

    The only way ever to approach each other in charity is that you begin to get off your high horse of exclusivity and privilege that allows you to hold the opinions you do about the non-Christian world out there. You can be a disciple of Christ while loving/affirming others unlike yourself, remember? 

  25. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    lwall,

    Are you actually looking for an apology and for me to agree with you?

    If I did, would you believe it?

    It's apparent from this discussion and your other posts that you're not interested in sincere and prudent dialogue.  You're just about making your point and bludgeoning anyone who doesn't agree with you.  You are neither loving nor affirming to others unlike yourself, and yet you expect me to be? 

    I indicated that I have responded inappropriately to your insults and attacks, as have others that you have attacked on this post, while you have not extended the same courtesy or respect for differing opinions.  I, myself, struggle to understand why you would keep coming back to a website that you so violently disagree with for any other reason that to be a shrill voice of dissent and to belittle the columnists and other people posting.

    So, if it makes you feel any better, I'll tell you that you won.  You've silenced the discussion. 

    Have a good night.

     

     

     

  26. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Humility opens doors.

  27. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Yes, it does.  I've got a long way to go.

  28. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    You and me both, mamreilly.

  29. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    your explanation of sundays gospel using saint thomas mores life as an example is one of the best i have ever heard or read it certently makes me understand the scriputure. I am 67 years old and thank you for your efforts.

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