Catholic Exchange

Minimum Daily Adult Requirement Christianity

I once knew a Baptist who was sleeping with her boyfriend. She knew this was wrong, but consoled herself that she was "bringing her boyfriend to Christ". She told me, "If I can just get him to salvation" (meaning 'saying the Sinner's Prayer and asking Jesus into his heart as his personal Lord and Savior') then he can't lose it." She believed in "eternal security". After the Prayer, they'd be free to pursue unfettered fornication.

Serious Catholics roll their eyes at this. We know "having said a prayer once" guarantees nothing. We recognize (at least when non-Catholics do stuff like this) that being a Christian is more than just a matter of Minimum Daily Adult Requirements.

However, Catholics can also slip into this sort of thinking. For instance, how many of our parishes have RCIA programs that are pretty much predicated on the notion that Baptism is the end, not the beginning of the journey of faith? How many new converts find themselves utterly abandoned to just flop around on the shore of the great Catholic Ocean after Easter? Might this have something to do with the enormous attrition rate among new converts?

Similarly, some Catholics can be positively Clintonian in parsing the "bottom line" on pet moral issues. On the Left, for instance, we find many ingenious attempts to explain away the Church's teaching regarding the intrinsically immoral act of abortion, while on the Right, similar efforts go into figuring out clever ways to defend the intrinsically immoral acts of torture sanctioned by the Bush Administration. Usually this feat is accomplished by reverting to the notion that obeying the Church's moral teaching is, again, a matter of Minimum Daily Adult Requirement thinking. "Just exactly when does human person come into existence? Can we really say that a cluster of cells is precisely, technically, exactly a person? Thomas Aquinas did not recognize ensoulment till the fortieth day after conception, you know! What is the precise boundary between removing cells and killing a person?" runs one line of sophistry on the Catholic Left.

Meanwhile, on the Catholic Right, the cry goes up that the Geneva Accords, which forbid "outrages on human dignity" and which seemed to work just fine for decades, are suddenly, in President Bush's words, "vague". Much chin-stroking ensues as some Catholics on the Right try to figure out just exactly how much you can waterboard, or inflict pain on, or otherwise frighten and torment prisoners before it's exactly, legally, technically, precisely, you know, torture.

 The problem is, all this sort of thinking is rubbish. For Jesus makes clear that the Ten Commandments, like all the prohibitions of the Law, are the floor, not the ceiling of the moral life.

This comes as a shock to people used to political blather about the Ten Commandments as "the sacred teachings that enshrine our highest values" and so forth. The Ten Commandments do not enshrine our highest values. They enshrine our lowest values. For it is the bare minimum of decency and common sense to say, "At the very least, don't kill, don't steal, don't commit adultery, have some respect for your parents, honor your Creator, etc." These are not "the highest ideals of the human race". They are the absolute bare minimum for a functioning human society.

Jesus makes this clear by insisting that laws like "Don't murder" or "Torture is intrinsically immoral" are there in order to be transcended, not parsed for loopholes. So, for instance, he not only reiterates the commandment against murder, but tells us that murder is found in the heart and must be conquered there. If you cherish hatred of another, you have already murdered him.

The point of this is to get us to realize, not that the Law is a bad thing, but that, as Paul says, "Love is the fulfillment of the Law". The Law is the floor below which we may not go. But love is the ceiling or, better still, the sky—and the sky's the limit. Therefore, attempts at moral reasoning, like attempts at evangelism, which aim at asking, "What's the bare minimum of obedience to Christ I can get away with and still be saved?" are fundamentally wrong-headed, like the guy who asks just exactly how far he can go with the secretary before it's really precisely, technically, exactly, you know, adultery. To even ask the question is to already reveal your corruption. Similarly, the way you avoid injustice to the unborn babe or the prisoner is not to waste time trying to figure out how close you can come to killing or torturing him without "crossing the line". Instead you aim to love him and you will not accidentally kill or torture him. Seek first the kingdom and everything else will be added as well.

(This piece was first published in the National Catholic Register.)

Comments

  1. Guest Avatar
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    Rev. Fulton Sheen quoted St. Augustine's formula: "Love, and then do whatever you wish." This was not an invitation to anarchy and carnalism, but rather an affirmation that if we love God, we will never do anything to hurt Him. (The Confessions of St. Augustine, Random House, 1949)

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    Great article.

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    People with scruples have to act against what they are convinced is a mortal sin. Is it just that they are "sick?" What about the old belief that one can commit a mortal sin by internal consent to a thought or pleasure? What is "internal consent?" Does that mean you really enjoy it?

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    Mark Shea wrote:

    "Might this have something to do with the enormous attrition rate among new converts?"

    What is this enormous attrition rate? Is it over 50%?

    The converts I know, admittedly a very limited sample, are quite active in parish life and by all appearances are pursuing a life in Christ. I can't think of one I personally know of who is attrited.

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    You go, Guy!  This minimalist thinking is what many accept as the "Spirit of Vatican II" and therefore Modern.  After 2000 years, that's the best we can do?  Is that really what all the effort before, during, and since the Council was all about? 

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    Excellent article as usual, Mark.  Thanks so much! Smile

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    Excellent indeed! As a new convert to Catholicism, I am also discovering St. Francis who also responded decisively to the minimalist thinking of his day. I will never live up to the maximal standards of Jesus or even St. Francis, but as someone once said, "better to aim at a star and hit the moon than to aim at a tree and hit a mud puddle".

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    I have to respectfully take issue with Mr. Shea on his assessment of Catholic Right. First of all, President Bush is not Catholic, one would assume that a devout Catholic president would not do this. For all his faults, Kennedy made some great remarks when protestant reporters grilled him on following the Pope for governing the nation. If you ever get a chance to see the old footage it is well worth it. Also, we are not water boarding the innocent, we are water boarding the same group of people that want us all dead and tried to assassinate John Paul II. When dealing with "Law" I always go back to Old Testament Laws. Water boarding is alot less torture than a beheading on you tube. (an eye for an eye). Perhaps if Mr. Shea made these comment in, lets say Iran or Syria, Oh but wait, he can't because he would be tortured and killed. Not by the Catholic Right, but by the Islamic Socialists. And, had Bush not taken these measures, we would be having the same concern in old US of A. My ire is with Mr Shea's "lumping" of sins as equal. They drew first blood. Water boarding would stop when they either explain when we will be killed next. Or, stop killing us all together. He has made the same error in his explanation in the beginning of the article by lumping two groups together. There is a right and a wrong, not two wrongs. Some rights hurt more than others. Cutting a part of the body off to stop cancer would be wrong in Mr. Shea's view with his logic.
    Carlos Perez, the Catholic Right
     
  9. Guest Avatar
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    mickeyaddison: Mark's point is, however, well-taken I'd say. Harsh interrogation techniques do happen, and there is the sort of "chin-stroking" Mark describes among certain Catholics.

     

    "I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for the things you have hidden from the wise and the learned you have revealed to the merest children." -Matthew 11:25

  10. Guest Avatar
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    Great topics for discussion!

    Mark Shea wrote:

    "Much chin-stroking ensues as some Catholics on the Right try to figure out just exactly how much you can waterboard, or inflict pain on, or otherwise frighten and torment prisoners before it's exactly, legally, technically, precisely, you know, torture."

    But there are those who say that the use of certain restraints is torture, that leaving the lights on all night is torture, that having a female interrogator present during an interview is torture, and so on.  So someone has to do the chin-stroking to figure out how to confine bad guys acceptably — and for those reponsible for the public's safety, it will certainly be more than some without such responsibilites would allow.  

    + + +

    mickey, I agree with you to a point. There are rules against torture being followed and our soldiers are placing themselves between us and some evil doers.

    + + +

    carlos wrote:

    "Also, we are not water boarding the innocent, we are water boarding the same group of people that want us all dead and tried to assassinate John Paul II."

    First, Carlos, I share your desire to do something to protect ourselves from terrorists. But do you even know with certainty that we are actually waterboarding anyone at all? I think not.

    Second, innocence actually is presumed until a case is made otherwise.  Due process guaranteed by the US Constitution and all that. Habeus corpus is a method of preventing indefinite imprisonment without trial, which we have sidestepped by keeping certain folks outside the USA. This is not something to be proud of.

    Third, how exactly should we determine the group of people (not individual people) that want us all dead and tried to assassinate JPII, so we can waterboard them?  Muslim people?  Arab people? Communist people? And who determines this? A nameless analyst working in a nameless office?

    We can do better; Jesus calls us to become who we are as children of God.

  11. Guest Avatar
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    Great article.  Spot on.  It hurts to see.  And that is good!

     

    Mickey and Carlos,

    God bless you.  The 10 commandments are great.  But, Christ's law and love are greater.  Turn the other cheek?  It is hard.  I don't think it will happen.  Christ's weakness and humility is what did Him in.  And yet, it saved us all.

    Pray for me.  I know we can't convince each other.  We are not trying to weigh the sins against each other.  We are shooting for the sky.  And that is impossible in this life without grace.  And I surely do not have enough grace.  I'l pray for you as well.

    GK – God is good!

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    GK…not sure I understand what you're trying (not) to convince me of…

    I am not arguing that torture is justifed…that is against our character as Americans and as Christians.  In fact, it is prohibited by civil law and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.  It is prohibited by the Law of Armed Conflict and international treaty.  Any act that even borders on maltreatment of detainees or prisoners is dealt harshly by military authorities (witness the harsh prison terms given to the soldiers who were responsible for mistreatment of their prisoners at Abu Graib…the result of an internal Army investigation underway long before the story hit the papers.)

    I'm pointing out that we're NOT TORTURING anyone.  It's not word-parsing nor justifying anything.  It's not political jingoism, it's fact.

    The problem is that too many people on the Left have been screaming this scandalous and hateful lie about their country for so long that people are begining to believe it (Repeat a lie often enough…).

    I am not arguing from afar either…I have personally spoken to men and women who have been there…and I have been to war myself.

    The United States does not torture anyone.   In fact, our military forces routinely put themselves in danger to avoid injuring anyone who might be innocent, and treat the prisoners under our care with respect they have neither earned nor deserve.

    As for Habeas Corpus…that applies to American citizens, it does not apply to foreign terrorists and illegal combatants caught on the battlefield in the act of harming or attempting to harm innocent people.  These are not car thieves and shoplifters…they are depraved, evil, murderous men who would kill innocents again if released.  They attack schools, houses of worship (particularly Christian ones), restaurants, markets, etc.  

    Even if we were to grant these depraved, evil men the same rights as a POW, they would still remain in custody until the war were over or they were paroled.  German, Italian, and Japanese POWs remained in US and Allied custody for years, that is, until WWII is over.

    Has critical thought been left at the TV remote?  THINK people! 

    Winking at torture?  What gall to assert that Americans would do such a thing! 

    Notwithstanding the occasional criminal in our ranks (a number far, far fewer than in civil society I hasten to add), the modern American military is the most professional in our history.  We execute our orders with honor, courage, and patriotism.  The "military" is not some faceless army of clone troopers…they are your sons and daughters.  They know right from wrong and are held to exceptionally high standards.  They all have high school diplomas, and many have Associates, Bachelor's, and even Masters degrees.  These are bright, professional, patriotic Americans.  They are all volunteers.

    Good people…I beseech you…as an American Airman and your son and brother….please, please do not believe the lies you have been fed in the press by the people who would prefer to destroy the country than see their political opponent succeed.  Each lie is a slap in the face of every Airman, Soldier, Marine, and Sailor.

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    Mr Shea is insightful but I have to take issue with his characterization of the coduct of American military forces and Administration policy regarding interrogation of terrorists.

    Mr Shea is just flat wrong.  The errors are legion, but I will address a couple here.

    First, the Geneva Conventions do not apply to the terrorists.  The Geneva Conventions apply only to the signatories of the treaties, of which Al Qaeda and the Taliban are not, and requires the signatories to abide by the Laws of War (e.g. clearly marked military forces under organized command, openly carrying weapons, avoidance of unnecessary injury or damage to non-combatants and their property, etc) 

    Second, it is the stated policy of the United States (by Executive Order), not to employ torture as an interogation technique.  The full EO is here but here is the applicable excerpt of the litany of prohibitions:

    C) other acts of violence serious enough to be considered comparable to murder, torture, mutilation, and cruel or inhuman treatment, as defined in section 2441(d) of title 18, United States Code;

    Note this is a re-iteration of Federal Law and Administration policy, not to mention the DoD policies under the Law of Armed Conflict, not a "new" policy.

    Third, enemy battlefield detainees (who are illegal combatants under the Geneva Conventions) receive extraordinarily humane treatment including (but not limited to) medical care, free exercise of their religion, and a special diet.  The guards at military prisons in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Cuba are very strictly supervised and highly trained.  Despite this, these same highly disciplined and motivated Airmen and Soldiers who conduct themselves with honor and integrity are subject to attack by the detainees (including throwing of feces, urine, and semen, physical attacks with homemade weapons, etc).

    What is the most hurtful, however, is the uninformed ridicule of uninformed Americans.  Some of America's finest young men and women have voluntarily placed their bodies between and evil depraved enemy and the innocent, they deserve more respect than to be accused falsely of torture.

  14. Guest Avatar
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    As a Baptist I never even questioned things like capital punishment – it was always justified.  After 3 attempts of RCIA I still never really understood Catholic teaching on sin.  Of course I had to study the church's documents for myself.  Also, as a Baptist, contraception was good because God gave us the intelligence to make it.  HA!  I LOVE the Catholic church – I no longer have to figure it out on my own or make it up as I go along.  The Church is the living example of how Christ taught us to live, when I don't understand something, I always turn to the Church!  Thank you Jesus for giving those keys to Peter!  My job is to pray for George Bush, not necessilarily defend an action I'm not sure is right or wrong!  Love, Love, Love…is the greatest commandment of all!!!

  15. Guest Avatar
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    mickeyaddison thanks for all your remarks.  I would have said the same things only I didn't know how to articulate them as well as you.

    Semper Fi! 

  16. Guest Avatar
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    mickey,

    As a recent retiree from the Army and with a couple of tours and some confinement experience under my belt, I understand what you are saying. Our commanders and their troops take great risk and go to great lengths to do the right thing. 

    The problem is shown most clearly when the highest levels of our national leadership refuse to categorically deny the use of techniques which we have routinely prosecuted as torture for decades.

    When this happens, those tremendous efforts of our commanders and troops are undermined. Again, this is testimony before the US Congress by leaders at the highest levels of our national government, not lies fed to the press by the people who would prefer to destroy the country than see their political opponent succeed.

    The argument that we don't want the terrorists to know what techniques we may or may not use against them because we don't want them to prepare to resist it is thin soup when our enemies make hearty meat and potatoes from this as prima facia evidence of the US's hidden crimes.

    I am not saying any of this is easy; but I am saying it is vitally important. We face a real danger of missing the higher purpose of our struggle against evil and becoming evil ourselves.

  17. Guest Avatar
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    PTR,

    But they have categorically denied the use of said techniques…and what more categorical denial is required than for the Commander in Chief and the Secretary of State to say, "We do not torture"?  The President's own Executive Order is quite specific on what is allowed and what isn't.  Refusal to get into debate on the floor of Congress on specific tactics, techniques, and procedures is something we should applaud as good operational security rather than use as "evidence" of tilting toward evil.

    Why are we so willing to believe the enemy over our own government?  Why is a denial by the President prima facie evidence and a propaganda tape on Al Jazeera from murderers considered fact?

    I confess a bit of thin skin on this, but I am weary of people assuming their own government is "evil" without a shred of evidence to back it up.

  18. Guest Avatar
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    God loves you .

    I have to note that our ‘tortures’ of our captured enemies has less to do with the old rack-and-rod for ‘confession’ than extracting information that can be both corroborated and corroborating.

    Of waterboarding – it is fear of death, not any actual killing or real pain, that loosens lips about terrorist futures. In that they would have us fear death at their arbitrarily violent hands, I can hardly think causing them such fears – and not really harming them – is actual ‘torture’.

    One colonel ‘tortured’ Saddam Hussein in his last days by using simple methods for getting his deeper cooperation for advanced intelligence. One way: since Saddam liked to wash his fresh fruit in baby wipes; so, wipes came as his cooperation came. Another way: he let Saddam cry on his shoulder about his impending execution – Saddam treated the colonel as a true friend and compassionate companion. Some ‘torture’.

    I believe that at heart I can be a very ‘cafeteria Catholic’, and that I can hope more than hope honors for me. Still, and all . . .

    One must see that these enemies in our custody would think it ‘torture’ against them for me to pray for Christ’s love for them in their hearing. Think what they might tell us if I ‘threatened’ them with a daily Rosary! Whoo-hoo!

    “Oh, no, NO! Not the Apostles Creed again!”

    Remember, I love you, too .

    In the Suffering of Christ, and in His hope of His Resurrection,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or … yahoo.com)

  19. Guest Avatar
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    "Mr Shea is insightful but I have to take issue with his characterization of the coduct of American military forces"

    I don't find that he characterized the conduct of American military forces in the article. I think he is charactierizing the tendency we all have to look for justification for our own actions and beliefs and still hope to squeeze through the narrow gate. 

  20. Guest Avatar
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    I dare say we live in an imperfect world.  Certainly our nation is imperfect.  Yet if you look around the world will you find a better nation who is concerned with doing the right thing even under intolerable conditions and pressure? 

    It is difficult to rationalize that abortion is not killing, period. 

    The fact that radical Islam kills and maims in the name of God is in stark contrast to our view of God.  We, like they, feel we are the way to heaven. Do you think either side could convince the other is wrong?  This would be an exercise in futility. As Catholics we are taught that the end does not justify the means. Yet, the old testament is replete with examples of God sanctioning the loss of human life to accomplish a higher good i.e. David and Goliath, The passage through the Red Sea and even the turning of people into salt.  God has sanctioned death and yet we know that God does not do evil things. This weeks homily is a recognition that wars will occur and people will be killed.  Judicious use of practical tools of persuasion makes good sense to save all of us .The positive results may well prevent further loss of life. This has been the case when Sheik Mo hammed was water boarded, unless you chose not to believe our government. As a Catholic from the right I am proud of our country and its president. 

    Although George is not a Catholic his brother Jeb is.

  21. Guest Avatar
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    mickey,

    I think we would agree that there is nothing magical about being a US citizen — just the blessing of being in a country that recognizes that every human being is endowed by the Creator with certain inalienable human rights. The Constitution does not create these rights; God does. The Constitution merely protects them. Citizenship is merely the limit to the jurisdiction of the US government's protection of those rights. That same US government ought not be in the business of ignoring such rights because it is not bound by territory.

    Good operational security indeed — are we to risk losing the war to preserve some dubious (at best) interrogation techniques?

    The USA has prosecuted cases of waterboarding as torture for many years.  As recently as last week, we had the Attorney General of the USA refusing to say waterboarding is torture. We're not even getting into what happens under extraordinary rendition.

    It is not a matter of whether we (I assume you mean US citizens) believe Al Qaeda over our own government. The center of gravity is not the US population.   The center of gravity is the support of the civilian populations of Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and that whole region of the world.  Their opinion is the center of gravity for this entire global effort against terror.  Their support is the center of gravity, which we yield by not clearly saying we won't participate in the exact same behavior we have prosecuted as torture.

  22. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    What I'd like to know is why even 'water boarding'? Why use fear or pain? That seems so counter productive.

    It seems to me that there is a tremendous lack of imagination in our state department.The best way would be to humanize them and gain their trust.

    Really….give me a detainee, and I'll have him singing like a bird with in a day.

    For entertainment have them watch only soft calming shows like things like 'SHUSHYBYE', and Care Bears, or that Zen painter on PBS, you know…the guy with the afro who paints nature scenes. I'd suggest Julia Child, but watching her mutilate chickens might give them ideas.

    Get them addicted to video games like game boy, then withdraw said video games…they'll talk.

    For the real hard cases then use 24/7 hours of the Barnie song (I love you, you love me) at 80 or 90 decibels….with strobe lights.

    Think outside the box.Wink

    Madeline

     

  23. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    PTR….good points.

    First, tho, I think you underestimate the value of the US citizen as a center of gravity.  American forces are dominant in the battlespace, only a lack of resolve and "abandoning our post" can enable Al Qaeda to win.

    Further, the constant drumbeat of erroneous information and downright lies by the opposition (both here and abroad) erode not only foriegner's faith in our cause, but the American people's resolve….the end result is the same.

    BTW…in Sept, Gen Hayden (CIA Director and AF officer) removed waterboarding from the list of Congressionally-approved 'enhanced interrogation techniques'.

    Oh…and on the Attorney General's comments…

    Whether he should or shouldn't have made a comment is moot since the practice has been discontinued anyway, but the reason he didn't comment was the same reasons he gave in his 30 Oct letter to the Senate Judiciary Committee:

    – he was not briefed about the details of any interrogation program to the extent they are classified, and thus does not know what the precise techniques at issue are

    – he did not want his uninformed statements to place our professional interrogators and those responsible for reviewing their conduct in legal jeopardy

    – he did not want his statements to provide our enemies with a window into the limits or contours of any interrogation program we have in place.

    He probably has an opinion, and wisely kept that to himself.  Good call, in my opinion.

  24. Guest Avatar
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    mickey,

    Fair enough.  Perhaps I should have said the support of the Iraqi, Afghan, and that region's population is our enemy's center of gravity. The US troops obviously need the support of the American people.

    We are the good guys and it is frustrating when we collectively do not get the word out.  It is most vital that we understand that when we send our fine young knights out to fight the monster, we make it an imperative they do not become the monster.

  25. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dalmer, John Wayne Gaycie (sp?), Clifford Olson*, and the Unabomber all got the benefit habeas corpus and all of the other protections of the law. Except for the Unabomber,these men are all categorically more evil than the few detainees that actually are terrorists (the Unabomber is merely as evil). Many of the detainees are innocent people in the wrong place, at the wrong time. One poor kuwaiti cartoonist ended up in Guantanaimo Bay for being a foreigner in Pakistan– he is not alone in that plight. Habeus corpus is a basic duty of the state. The state has a duty to explain why someone is imprisoned, especially if there are no plans to give them a trial.

    Human rights must be conferred on all humans, even the ones that hate us.

     

    * Clifford Olsen murdered several children. Although he has been in prison for years, and will never get out, he continues to employ his cruel cunning to inflict yet more suffering on those that knew his victims through creative abuse of the legal system.

  26. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Well, all I can say is I have no idea what "Baptist church" this young lady attended but it surely was not the one I attended when young.  I would have been about branded like banished Cain had I pulled a stunt like that and made such a comment.

     

    Joseph Bailey

  27. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Madeline,

    Many of those outside the box things have been tried — Barney, the works.  And while some innocent men did get caught up, there are also a serious number of very bad men being held.  They are on the whole fairly well-educated, very well-trained and have deeply held beliefs; they are committed to kill or die trying. Many can not even be sent home because their home countries will not take them. And we're going on five years now with a few of these people.

    This is not a simple thing.

     

  28. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    It's hard to argue against what Mark has written in the abstract, but what about realities of the world. Was it wrong for the US to fight the Nazi's? Did our soldiers back then comit a sin when they killed an enemy combatant?

     

    If murder is murder is murder which is what i thnk your saying in this artcile, then how did the "Just War" doctrine come into existance?

  29. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Many of those outside the box things have been tried — Barney, the works.  And while some innocent men did get caught up, there are also a serious number of very bad men being held.  They are on the whole fairly well-educated, very well-trained and have deeply held beliefs; they are committed to kill or die trying. ]]

     

    I understand.

    There are no easy answers…and I didn't mean to be flippant.

    Madeline 

     

     

     

  30. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Nor did I mean to over-react.

    Sometimes it's difficult on these forums to convey a light-hearted post without bringing the house down on you.

     

  31. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    God loves you .

    MREINER16 – go back and read the essay more carefully. I don’t think that Mark Shea is questioning ‘just war’, especially in the self-defense of such as WWII.

    He is questioning when we say ‘just war’ to justify things beyond the pall of an infantryman’s foxhole and defense after being attacked. In this he is opening the thread for some give-and-take to yield some conclusions. One important one is how anything that can be ‘torture’ fits into any justice, in war or any situation.

    He may be looking for volunteers among us to get ‘tortured’ in various non-permanently-damaging ways so we can vote whether that was torture or not. He will publish his results as the Shea Seattle Suffering Studies – make money off guys like me who might be goofy enough to show up. If I get past water-boarding, he may make me eat pasta without a good Chianti. Then – no cigarettes for a week! If I get past those, he may have me read to his children, and all their friends, from all their favorite books until my voice finally makes them nap – torture is, I don’t get to nap. And, I LOVE my naps.

    This thread does make one wonder – there are tortures and, then, there ARE tortures.

    Remember, I love you, too .

    In the Suffering of Christ, and in His hope of His Resurrection,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or … yahoo.com)

  32. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Hey, Warren, I only have a dial-up internet connection.  Is that not torture?

  33. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    I think Mark tried to be balanced and evenhanded in comparing the sins of the Left and the Right. Luckily he thought of this lame example of "torture", otherwise the article might have still been in process.

  34. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    "Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dalmer, John Wayne Gaycie (sp?), Clifford Olson*, and the Unabomber all got the benefit habeas corpus and all of the other protections of the law. Except for the Unabomber,these men are all categorically more evil than the few detainees that actually are terrorists (the Unabomber is merely as evil). Many of the detainees are innocent people in the wrong place, at the wrong time. One poor kuwaiti cartoonist ended up in Guantanaimo Bay for being a foreigner in Pakistan– he is not alone in that plight. Habeus corpus is a basic duty of the state. The state has a duty to explain why someone is imprisoned, especially if there are no plans to give them a trial.

    Human rights must be conferred on all humans, even the ones that hate us.

     

    Yes…and all are American citizens entitled to these rights, even men like the ones you named.  Foreigners, captured on a foreign battlefield, are not entitled to these rights.

    Detainees are not afforded the rights of a citizen because they are evil men; they are not afforded the rights of a citizen because they are not citizens.

    They are imprisoned because the alternatives, summary execution or release, are: in the first case heavy-handed and unChristian, and in the second dangerous.

  35. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Enemy or suspected enemy combatants have always been held in prison camps. The rights of citizens never applied to them and never will. Those are the rules of war. It is questionable whether the current group of detainees is even governed by the Geneva Convention because they do not wear the uniform or insignia of any nation or legal entity. They are international criminals, terrorists. They are being treated far better than they would be as citizen prisoners in their own countries.

    The argument and comparison that Mark started is ludicrous. He was looking for fault in the Bush administration and on the Right. Not a good find. If I were to point out unchristian behavior on the Right I would have focused on self-righteousness. The Right thrives on being legal, correct and righteous. At the extreme this tends to produce self-righteousness which Christ called washed sepulchers. 

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    Guest

    Again, we are grouping people. I am not against Arabs or Muslims, nor am I against guns, knives, dynamite, etc. I am against a person that uses these things for evil. There are evil people in this world. You can choose to ignore this fact and think that some poor missunderstood soul is trying to express his religious freedom by beheading Jews and Christians.  I believe God gave us logic and thought, which by the way these same evil people want to deny us. Turning the other cheek until we are dead and Christianity is wiped from the face of the earth is something that people may wish to consider. I, would love to see everyone come to Christ, and seek peace, but becoming a target of a terrorist because I and others believe this is lunacy. You do not hand your soul to the devil, you fight him with Christ. Jesus knocked over a few tables once. Knowing the difference between Good and Evil is fundamental. We will all be judged evetually, and believe me I am taking shorts and flip flops where I am headed, but I would like to see my Church last a little longer for the generations to come.

    Carlos Perez

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    I do not know how many Iraqis, Saudis, Pakistanis, Afghans, or Muslims in general the posters on this thread know, but they are not terrorists; the terrorists are a very small subset of them.

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    Allow me to make various replies to various folk.

    Mr. Perez sez:

    President Bush is not Catholic, one would assume that a devout Catholic president would not do this.

    Irrelevant.  The Catechism says this is a matter of natural law, not revelation:

    2312 The Church and human reason both assert the permanent validity of the moral law during armed conflict. "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."109

    2313 Non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.

    For all his faults, Kennedy made some great remarks when protestant reporters grilled him on following the Pope for governing the nation. If you ever get a chance to see the old footage it is well worth it.

    This defense of the intrinsic and grave moral evil of torture sounds exactly like Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, and Mario Cuomo talking about abortion, Carlos. 

    Also, we are not water boarding the innocent, we are water boarding the same group of people that want us all dead and tried to assassinate John Paul II.

    Two points.  First, throughout this discussion, recall that we are talking about torture, not merely the species of torture called "waterboarding".

    Second, it is false to say that we are not torturing the innocent.  We have, on several different ocassions, tortured or threatened to torture the innocent. And not just the innocent, but their families (including children) as well.

    When dealing with "Law" I always go back to Old Testament Laws.

    A Catholic, when dealing with "Law" should try consulting the Catechism.  One moral principle you will discover there is that saying, "Water boarding is alot less torture than a beheading on you tube. (an eye for an eye)." is crap.  You shall not do evil. Being slightly less barbarous than barbarians is still barbaric.  I repeat: "The mere fact that war has regrettably broken out does not mean that everything becomes licit between the warring parties."

    [H]ad Bush not taken these measures, we would be having the same concern in old US of A.

    This is a lie.  We did not have to act like Nazis to beat the Nazis and we did not have to behave like the Commies to beat the Commies.  We do not have to behave like barbarian to defeat Islamic barbarians. 

    My ire is with Mr Shea's "lumping" of sins as equal.

    It is Veritatis Splendor 80, not me, that declares torture to be intrinsically immoral–just like abortion. 

    They drew first blood. Water boarding would stop when they either explain when we will be killed next. Or, stop killing us all together.

    Thanks for that eloquent demonstration of *exactly* what I'm talking about in my piece.  Your contempt for CCC 2312-2313 speaks more loudly and clearly of the Right's consequentialism than anything I could write. 

    Mickey:

    Thanks for your honorable defense of our troops.  My quarrel is not with them.  It is with the Bush Administration's strenuous (and regrettably successful) attempts to make torture part of our nation's policy, with the lies the Administration and its apologists in the "conservative" media tell, and with the attempts of some Christians to tidy this up theologically.

    The fact is, we do torture.  Waterboarding, which is but one form of torture, was used on Khalid Sheik Mohammed (as was the threat to harm his children).  And he is by no means alone.  Indeed, we have not only tortured prisoners, we have murdered them (and the Bush Administration has made sure that the CIA spook who did it has faced no consequences).  The Pentagon, to its great credit, has tried very hard to resist the pressure the Bush Administration has put on them to loosen the regs to make it easier to order torture.  But the Bush Administration has tried just as hard to make sure that torture remains one of the "tools" the Administration employs.

    So the fact is, Bush is lying when he says "we do not torture".  The CIA has employed waterboarding, cold cells and strappado in the past.  Waterboarding was, when employed by the Japanese, judged a war crime by the US.  Cold cells were pioneered by the KGB and have resulted in deaths from hypothermia (and aggressive treatment for same in the case of WoT prisoners).

    The Bush Administration has, in theory, made a show of pretending to renounce torture with the Military Commissions Act.  But the fact is, just as he has lied in saying we do not torture, he has likewise deceived the public here.  He has done this in two ways.  First, the Act does not cover the actions of the CIA, which remains free to use torture.  Second, Bush has made liberal use of "signing statement" by which he effectively declares that the law means whatever he chooses to make it means and if he doesn't feel like applying it to himself, he doesn't have to.

     Finally, I'm not particularly interested in the Geneva Convention per se.  I'm interested in Catholic moral teaching, which declares that prisoner *must* be treated humanely.  This doe not mean "treated to feather pillows and bon bons".  It means "humanely"–as we have traditionally treated prisoners in all our past wars.  There is no reason the Bush Administration should be permitted to sully America's great heritage with this cowardly recourse to barbarism and the status of the prisoner as an illegal combatant has, essentially, nothing to do with the question.  We do not, under the natural law, have the right to torture or murder somebody in our custody merely because they are illegal combatants.  And, at any rate, not all the people we have tortured were, in fact, legal combatants.  That's the thing about torture: you often use to *find out* if the person you are torturing has done anything wrong.

     It is precisely *because* I honor the great dedication and sacrifice of our troops that I am so angered by the cowardice and dishonor of the Administration in attempting force upon them a situation where some politician can order a grunt to use "enhance interrogation" (a term first concocted by the Gestapo) and then, when the lowly grunt is forced to comply and gets caught, the politician can denounce the grunt as a war criminal and keep his own skirts all neat and clean.  That is the arrangement the Bush Administration has been laboring to produce and it is to the great credit of the military that they have fought Bush and Cheney tooth and nail on it–precisely because they are honorable men.

    Thanks for your service, Mickey!

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    Mark,

     

    Unfortunately you're "facts" are not facts at all.  Your entire "case" hinges on the assertion that the Administration ordered the mistreatment of prisoners…the facts are the opposite.  Contrary to your assertion, the misguided and false accusations you repeat soil the same soldiers you profess to support  You cannot say you "support the troops" on one side of your mouth and then repeat the same old tired lies about our Commander-in-Chief and our own conduct from the other.

     

    The sources you cite as "proof" the President has lied and that American military and CIA personnel have tortured and murdered prisoners as a matter of policy are simply wrong on the facts.

     

    First of all, it is the policy of the United States that those in charge of detainees do not torture.  CIA and military personnel receive training and the President has issued orders through the chain of command that we are to treat detainees humanely.  These orders are carried out.  On the rare occasion where a criminal in our ranks has broken that trust, they have been prosecuted and held responsible.

     

    The fact is, we do not torture as a matter of policy.

     

    There have been no "Administration orders" to "grunts" to torture so they can "keep their shirts clean"…in fact the exact opposite is true. 

     

    You cite Abu Ghraib as evidence that the Bush Administration sanctions the mistreatment of detainees.  That was the case of a handful of criminals mistreating a handful of prisoners.  When they were caught, their entire chain of command was disciplined, including a general officer, and the soldiers who mistreated the detainees were jailed.  The investigation that resulted in these sanctions was underway before it made the press.  They were jailed/reprimanded because they violated the Uniform Code of Military Justice and the Laws of War.  What they did was repugnant, it soiled out honor, but it was an isolated incident counter to the Bush Administration's policy, their training, the UCMJ,  and the laws of the land.

    Any discussion of waterboarding is moot since that Congessionally-approved interrogation technique is not employed by the United States forces or the CIA, per the order of the Director of Central Intelligence in 2006. 

     

    The Laws of War, under which the Geneva Conventions are a part, are relevant here not because they somehow supersede or evade Natural Law as outlined in the Catechism, but because they are based on Natural Law and Catholic Just War theology.  Administration  policy is congruent with both as it requires the humane treatment of prisoners.

     

    You assert that the president has ordered or sanctioned torture and the mistreatment of prisoners.  The facts do not support that assertion.

     

    In the opening days of the WoT, American forces were explicitly instructed to treat prisoners humanely.  In September 2001, the President himself instructed all United States personnel to treat detained personnel (see Section 3) "humanely, without any adverse distinction based on race, color, religion, gender, birth, wealth, or any similar criteria; (c) afforded adequate food, drinking water, shelter, clothing, and medical treatment;  (d) allowed the free exercise of religion consistent with the requirements of such detention; and (e) detained in accordance with such other conditions as the Secretary of Defense may prescribe. "  

     

    The President further issued an executive order that firmly and explicitly outlines the treatment of prisoners under US control.  It merely reiterates a host of existing policies, treaties, and Federal law.  It prohibits torture and requires the humane treatment of detainees.

     

    Your description of an honorable president as "coward" & "liar" is unjust, un-called for, and inaccurate.  Your implied comparison of officials of the United States with the Nazis Gestapo is disgusting.  Frankly, you're words are not worthy of you.

     

    Please use that brilliant critical thinking you're famous for, and examine the facts, not the leftists' talking points.

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