Catholic Exchange

How I Wrecked Two Parish Ministries

I didn’t start out with the intention of wrecking anything. In fact, when in both cases the meeting ended in angry shouts and people running out the door breathing hard, I was as shocked as anybody. Here is what happened:

The time was the late l970’s. I was a new Catholic, with Jewish roots and a seven-year stint in an Evangelical church where I had learned to revere the Bible. I knew there was a lot of controversy within the Church, but I don’t think I really understood that the gentle “spirit of Vatican II” had turned into a gale-force wind ripping through Good Pope John’s “open windows” and leaving rubble all over the spiritual landscape.

One day our parish bulletin announced a weekly Bible study for adults, which I signed up for with happy expectations. It was to be taught by a young man named… let’s call him Mr. U, for Updated, because he reminded us several times that he had taken a six-month course in Updated Theology under the auspices of the diocese. The word “updated” didn’t ring any alarm bells in my innocent ears at that time, as it did later on when I heard it used to mean something more like “uprooted.”

The first class began tamely enough. We got settled down with our Bibles and Mr. U. began to teach, beginning with the infancy narratives in Matthew and Luke. It soon became clear that the main fact we needed to know was that the whole thing was a pack of lies invented by a cunning cabal called the Early Christian Community, for God alone knew what reason.

As he continued teaching, I began to notice stricken looks on the faces of some of the students. After demolishing angels, shepherds, Magi, and stars, and throwing doubt on anything that suggested the supernatural at all, Mr. U. tore into the Hebrew Bible. The God of the Old Testament, we learned, was not the true God at all, but a product of the primitive Hebrew mentality — a cosmic bully with anger management problems. At this point my Jewish blood began to simmer. We were all getting restive and starting to object to one thing or another. Mr. U. kept reminding us that this was all “the teaching of the Council,” and anyway, he had taken that six-month course….

He went further. Jesus was not the Messiah of Israel; those Jews had it all wrong, as usual. By this time I had so many things to say at once that I was reduced to silence, like Reepicheep on the slaver’s back. But my guardian angel must have felt sorry for me because he whispered an inspiration into my ear.

“Mr. U,” I said sweetly, “Do you happen to know how the word Messiah — Mashiach in Hebrew — is translated into English?

“No,” he replied.

“It’s Christ.”

“Oh,” he said.

“So you’re saying Jesus is not the Christ, right?”

There was a short silence, and then — I have to give him credit for honesty — he said, “Yes, Jesus is not the Christ.”

That little dialog is among my happier memories because my usual practice in these situations is to get angry and blurt out something stupid, as you will see by the end of this story. But this one time, my angel came through and shoved my enemy neatly into a hole of his own making. My fellow students were edified; they might not have been scholars, but by Heaven, they knew enough to call Jesus the Christ.

wreakingball.jpgStill, the demolition went on; confusion spread over us all like smog. At one point Mr. U. enlightened us about the authority and infallibility of the Pope, neither of which existed; it was all a tragic two-thousand-year-old misunderstanding that was finally being corrected. In short, the Bible was a collection of fairy tales and the Pope’s word was nothing but his own opinion. Only one source of truth was infallible and unquestionable: heaven and earth would pass away but the word of Mr. U. would not pass away.

Week Two:  I came armed. I brought my copy of the Vatican II Documents, with certain passages book-marked. The meeting was very brief. After we prayed, I spoke up in a polite way.

“Mr. U,” I said. (Everyone held their breath.) “In connection with something you said last week, do you mind if I just read a short passage from the Documents of Vatican II?”

No answer. We sat there a while and then Mr. U. got up and put on his coat in silence. He walked to the door and said in a tone of barely-restrained fury, “If you people won’t accept my authority, I’m not going to teach you anymore!” And he walked out of the house. Nobody begged him to stay. I got a chance to read all my bookmarked passages to the other students and we all had a good talk.

But there were no more Bible studies in the parish after that. And later on I learned something about our teacher which, had I known it beforehand, would have kept me from saying anything. Mr. U. had an inoperable brain tumor; he was a dying man. It’s not unlikely that I hastened his death by questioning his authority. From all accounts he was a good man, popular with everyone and admired for his courage. But he was poisoning Christian souls.

Did I do wrong? I don’t know. God could have arranged things so that I knew about the brain tumor before the classes began, but He didn’t. Does that mean He wanted me to challenge Mr. U the way I did? Who knows?

The whole event had a rather odd post-script. After the first class I asked an Evangelical friend to pray for us. I told her what doctrines Mr. U. was teaching and she was quite shocked. After the second class I told her about the brain tumor and she was relieved to hear it, in a way. “So that’s where he got all those crazy ideas! They were the effect of a brain tumor! No wonder!”

I didn’t think it was prudent to tell her that they came, not from brain cancer, but from the teaching of Catholic Bible scholars in a class approved by our bishop.

Now let’s go ahead a few years. Mr. U. died (God rest his soul). We got a new pastor. The parish became for a while more sane. A few of us got together to form a pro-life group, and our Associate Pastor offered to be our chaplain. “Father O” (for orthodox and obedient) was a fine, dedicated priest who had done the parish a lot of good. Unfortunately he was also a victim of bi-polar disorder and he could be difficult. But we all felt that with patience and prayer we could work together. Maybe that should have been with prayer and fasting, and without the Troublemaker, me.

We got off to a good start, giving out leaflets after Mass and running a booth at a town Health Fair showing models of fetal development. We also took part in some prayer vigils outside our local, um, women’s “reproductive health” facility.

Next we decided to get closer to the root of the problem and arrange a chastity presentation for parish teens. There were several good ones available but Father O. astonished us by insisting on using a program that was notorious for its modernist teaching. I didn’t have to say anything; the whole group rose in protest, explaining what was wrong and asking Father to consider something more appropriate. Unfortunately he was not in the mood to compromise. When someone finally asked Father why he was so set on this particular program, he said it was because it was recommended by someone trustworthy — none other than Mr. U., my departed nemesis.

If my guardian angel was whispering anything in my ear this time (like maybe SHUT UP) I was too upset to listen. I didn’t stop and pray, I didn’t count to ten, I just opened my mouth and sealed my fate — and also, as it turned out, the fate of the whole pro-life group.

“Mr. U,” I declared in my winning way, “was a FLAMING HERETIC!”

Long silence. I suddenly got that déjà vu feeling. But this time it was not the leader who walked out the door but the troublemaker herself, together with her husband. We were, to be more accurate, thrown out, and told never to come back. The pro-life group limped along for a few more weeks and then folded. It was years before another one formed.

Thus ended chapter two of my short and lurid career in parish ministry. Since then I have stuck to more informal attempts at serving God, the kind that don’t involve meetings. Some people just aren’t meant to work in groups. I don’t want to wreck any more apostolates, or spend any more sleepless nights trying to figure out exactly how I went wrong — not to mention the big question of where my overwrought mind had picked up that melodramatic adjective, flaming. Could it be there was lurking in my mind the image of an auto-da-fe? Worse, could I have been taking pleasure in the image?

If anybody wants to know the moral of this story I can suggest two possibilities:

(1) “The wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.”

(2) Don’t use the word “heretic.” It makes people think of flames.

 [Copyright 2009 Catholic Exchange]

Comments

41 responses to “How I Wrecked Two Parish Ministries”

  1. Cooky642 Avatar
    Cooky642

    As a convert and a re-vert, I can sympathize with your problem. Nothing gets my goat faster than a Catholic who doesn’t know–because he/she doesn’t WANT to know!–the Truth!

    However, I have a suggestion for your problem with “Mr. U”. Has it occured to you, yet, that perhaps God was using you to try and get “Mr. U”‘s attention before it was too late? After all, God knew about the brain tumor long before you did–way before “Mr. U” did! Perhaps, a loving Father was using you to invite His son to come home.

  2. noelfitz Avatar
    noelfitz

    I enjoyed the article by Ms Hever.

    I am fortunate that that those active in our parish are all solid in the Faith.

    However (sorry) I do disagree with Ms Hever when she wrote:

    “…the word Messiah — Mashiach in Hebrew — is translated into English?

    “No,” he replied.

    “It’s Christ.””

    I would suggest that the English of Messiah should be translated as “The Anointed One”, which in Greek is “Christos”.

    Messiah means the anointed one promised by God.

    God bless,

    NoelFitz.
    _________________________________________________

    In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
    _________________________________________________

  3. PrairieHawk Avatar

    I feel like I’ve gone through my life as a Catholic with blinders on. I’ve hardly even heard a bad homily in the 15 years I’ve been a re-vert. Sure, there were a few Masses celebrated with dealcoholized wine and leavened bread, and one suggestion from a very young pastor that perhaps Jesus’ multiplication of the loaves and fishes meant that the crowd was encouraged to generously share the food they had brought with them. Then there was the Jesuit spiritual director who didn’t believe in the Real Presence, and who pointedly said so every chance he got.

    Okay, I’m talking myself out of my main point. The main point is, God has taken care of me, and I’m very grateful. The Church is still the Church, thank Heaven, and we’re all still safe within her bounds. Jesus is the Head of the Church, it’s His Church, and He’s going to get us all safely to our destination. So “do not let your hearts be troubled,” for He has overcome the world.

    But there’s nothing wrong with calling a heretic a heretic, either.

  4. delynn Avatar
    delynn

    I guess I find myself wondering what would have happened if we, the average Catholics in the pews, handled the illicit changes and teachings in the past with the simple, honest truth that you spoke. Would we have saved ourselves many problems?

    Although Maschiach may translate to “the annointed one promised by G-d,” and legitimately I think, can be understood in the same way as the Messiah that we use, the leap to Christ is not far. I aruge that it works and is acceptable.

  5. noelfitz Avatar
    noelfitz

    Delynn

    I think you miss my point. Maschiach in Hebrew means Chistos in Greek and Anointed One in English.

    Jesus is the Messiah, the Christ and the Anointed One; they are all the same in different languages.

    God bless,

    NoelFitz.
    _________________________________________________

    In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
    _________________________________________________

  6. wgsullivan Avatar
    wgsullivan

    The point of the article is we have dissenters and how do we define the line of faith working through love. At what point do we take off the gloves in instructing the ignorant?
    My wife and I partake in an ecumenical bible study just to see what our kids are experiencing at school. I can’t decide if the leader is ignorant (he has many years of bible study, pastorate, and bible college degree behind him) or dishonest. Most of the time I find myself biting my lip so as not to make the hosts upset and appear as a troublemaker but I can’t just sit by and let the contradictions go by.
    I tend to respond with facts and not questions, especially if I feel the comments are “drive-by shootings”.
    The art of being the gullible Catholic trying to find the truth through the fog is one I am still working on.

  7. baptizedsoul Avatar
    baptizedsoul

    I am aconvert of 25 years now. From the moment I entered the Catholic Church I was determined to learn, live and teach the truth and nothing but the truth. Anytime I encountered anyone or anything that dosen’t sound kosher I challenge it without hesitation. When a person priest or lay-person attempts to reduce sacramentals or the sacarments to “little cute magical things” I make a point of pointing out the error immediately through the Holy Scriptures and the CCC. I have never encourntered a person of any caliber preaching error that can publicly withstand divine fire / truth. Thus, through three parishes and 25 years I have made a point in either building or supporting sound Bible Study and Apologetic groups and help create additional CCD instruction classes strengthen RCIA classes, and all this in the effort of combating ignorance of Holy Scripture and Catholic Doctine. I say to one and all, study your Bible and CCC daily, pray often, and fear not, stand up and preach and teach and admonish anyone if and when they are out of order. Ask the Holy Spirit to assist you in your calling to live your faith daily, openly and with courage and love of God and His Church.

  8. elkabrikir Avatar
    elkabrikir

    Regarding “Mr U”, brain tumors really can change your personality and make you “crazy”. Possibly his irrational behavior and inability to listen were due to the tumor.

    Brain tumors are a horrible way to die.

    I pray, through the intercession of St Joseph, that we all have a happy death.
    ————————————–

    In God’s mercy and justice, my faith has been built on the blood of the martyrs (and white martyrs) who resisted the heretics. What a grace it is to be given faithful witnesses to Christ.

    May we always testify to the Christ, Jesus of Nazareth.

  9. LarryW2LJ Avatar
    LarryW2LJ

    Marilyn,

    I don’t think for a minute that you “wrecked” two ministries. You stood up for the Truth in difficult circumstances. Brain tumor or not, the Truth remains the Truth. Thank you for having the courage to witness it.

    Larry W2LJ

  10. liturgylover Avatar
    liturgylover

    This story sounds frighteningly familiar to a story which was recounted to me by a student of recent class in a our diocesan sponsored lay education program. Dr. N, in this case, also started with the debunking of the infancy narratives and ended with his attack of the perpetual virginity – or lack there of -of Mary. Unfortunately, all but one student, sat blank faced bobbing their heads like the head dogs in the back windows of cars.

  11. papist Avatar
    papist

    I liked that Marilyn used the documents of Vatican II against Mr. U, who claimed to have the backing of “the teachings of the Council.” I doubt the man ever read the documents. Perhaps the best tool to use against those lukewarm Catholics who claim “Vatican II allows us to do this” is the documents themselves.
    The priest at my parish is an amazing man, and yet when he first came to the parish people whispered about him being “traditional” or “pre-Vatican II.” I would reply that he is actually the definition of what Vatican II was all about and then encourage them to read the documents themselves.
    The word “heretic” is a wonderful and historic word that has unfortunately fallen out of use because it is thought to sound “too harsh” and will hurt peoples deinty little egos. If someone cringes at that word then perhaps use the word schismatic or dissenter in its place?

  12. Claire Avatar
    Claire

    Cooky, I was thinking the exact same thing: that maybe the author was being used to convert Mr. U’s heart before he died.

  13. Dave Avatar
    Dave

    I am amazed while reading articles such as this. Because of information readily available, I have come to realize in the past several years that there is indeed evil in the Church. I was never exposed to bad priests, much less a bad parish in my 60+ years. I’m still trying to adjust to so-called “Pro-Choice” Catholics. The obvious question is where are the shepherds of wayward parishes? Surely these bishops are aware of what is happening. And, if not so, how could they have been elevated to their positions of authority? Is the USCCB that ineffectual?

  14. JimAroo Avatar
    JimAroo

    Brain tumor has nothing to do with his errors….. brain washing was the problem. He had been misled and misformed by people in positions of authority. Almost every person I know who has taken the diocesan formation programs in this arch diocese has lost all sense of his or her faith. The only ones who escape having their faith slaughtered are those who are such poor students that they simply pay no attention to the material or the speakers.

  15. Jim Avatar
    Jim

    A recent Vatican report on the state of seminaries suggested that while they were overall, healthy, there was a problem with a lack of traditional Catholic devotions (rosary, stations of the cross, etc.) and a subtle dissent from Church teachings on the part of some professors. It seems to me that we get these problems, and more obvious ones like Mr. U in the article, because the Church simply does not want to FIRE anyone. A precondition to “employment” for lack of a better word, is to either agree with Church teachings the way you are supposed to or be invited to seek employment elsewhere. It is not that hard. And it applies to bishops, clergy and religious as well. If a theologian won’t seek a Mandatum from his/her bishop, then the theologian should not be allowed to teach. Period. Thanks.

  16. noelfitz Avatar
    noelfitz

    Things really are not as dismal as many here suggest.

    Please look at https://archive.catholicexchange.com/2007/06/05/90591/

    “These new-wave Catholic schools consider their linkage to the Church an integral part of their lives. In doing so, they remind us that doctrine is liberating, even in institutions dedicated to critical thought.”

    God bless,

    NoelFitz.
    _________________________________________________

    In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
    _________________________________________________

  17. mattjp78 Avatar
    mattjp78

    I agree with the other poster who said the best thing you can do is go back to the Magisterial teaching of the church. It protected your first group, God be praised. Lies can’t stand up in the face of truth, and that era was full of lies which, alas, haven’t been corrected yet.

    But, I also agree that the word “heretic” is a little too charged. Alas, I used it myself a few times before I internalized that. What you said isn’t inaccurate, though. Presentation matters, and calmly saying that “The lessons that Mr. U presented on the theology of Vatican II deviated substantially from the text of the documents.” It strikes me as funny as I write it how very Protestant that might come across, to put more stock in your own reading of the texts than in the word of the person authorized to teach you about them. But if the documents clearly say “apple” and the teacher clearly says “orange,” it’s at least taking it up the chain.

    I myself have been lax in reading the documents of Vatican II (which I bought a long time ago), and this is good motivation not to let buying them get me off the hook for actually knowing what’s in them.

    God bless.

  18. HomeschoolNfpDad Avatar
    HomeschoolNfpDad

    An observation: heretic comes from a Greek word meaning “to pick and choose.” In previous years, people (many of whom understood enough Greek to know) knew what the word referred to.

    But the whole article reminded me of nothing moreso than good St. Polycarp himself. In Against Heresies, book III, chapter 3, St. Irenaeus recounts the tale of Polycarp meeting Marcion in the street:

    “And Polycarp himself replied to Marcion, who met him on one occasion, and said, ‘Do you know me?’ ‘I do know you, the first-born of Satan.’ Such was the horror which the apostles and their disciples had against holding even verbal communication with any corrupters of the truth” (you can get the text from Newadvent.org).

    Aside from all that, I can understand your deduced morals in the context of Father O. But asking questions and citing source material is expected behavior in all reasonable scholarly environments. Independent of the relative faithfulness of any of the parties involved in that Vatican II discussion, it would have been simple decency to allow the open discussion of the actual documents. If someone chooses to take offense at the act of digging through source documents, it is not your fault, whatever the offended party’s particular circumstances might be.

    No one should be shamed for citing the documents of history.

  19. Mary Kochan Avatar
    Mary Kochan

    I understand the seriousness of the topic and the comments, but am I the only person who laughed out loud reading this?

  20. unclefrank Avatar
    unclefrank

    I laud the author for standing up for the Truth. Would it have been better to sit silently and waste ones time and efforts in a parish ministry that was formed on a faulty basis and may cause more harm and confusion than good? What would Irenaus say? What about all those great saints and martyrs who stood up against heresy and in so doing gave us the Church as we know it. Niceness is good, but not necessary. Truth is necessary.

  21. attagirl Avatar
    attagirl

    Mary, I too laughed out loud. I think we have all been there at one time or another. If we weren’t debating theology in front of a committee, we were sitting uncomfortably watching others do so! If only, as Jesus prayed before His death, the Church would be united…

  22. terrygeorge Avatar
    terrygeorge

    I have also had the displeasure of ‘wrecking’ a wayward parish bible study. I helped start a bible study in a parish years ago. The leaders later invited a local gentleman to assist in leading it. He attended a protestant church known for proselytizing Catholics. I have no doubt that he earnestly sought to teach what he understood to be the truth, but it was a fundamental Protestant interpretation of the scriptures, frequently opposed to the Truth as preserved by the Magisterium. I was not silent long, and we butted heads weekly, to the dismay of the other participants, both of us becoming more frustrated with each other. I think that I failed to utilize church documents well to assert the proper Catholic understanding.
    Eventually, those who had invited him expressed that they felt I was disrupting the bible study, and I rejoined that I was only bringing up Church teaching. They stated that the bible study was for sharing people’s personal interpretations of the scriptures, not Church teaching, to which I responded that my personal interpretation was to believe the Catholic Church. We were getting nowhere.
    I wanted a group that would help people learn and grow and be comforted in the Truth. I was more than happy to let anyone express their opinions, as long as the relevant Church teachings were also being designated so. That wasn’t happening. I shared my concerns with the priest, who did not regularly participate. He expressed concern. I soon was moving away again, and the group seemed to fold soon after. I finally concluded that it was better if it ended than for people to continue excluding Holy Mother Church’s teachings.
    One thing I learned: when people are opposing the Truth and their logic is shown to be faulty, they tend to start accusing those who uphold the Truth of arrogance.

  23. Grace Harman Avatar
    Grace Harman

    “Dissent” began with “Humanae Vitae”. Before that everyone knew it was HERESY to reject Church teaching.
    Perhaps the “Humanist Manefesto” of the 1930’s which infected our schools and psychology at that time, may have set the stage for this though, for that was its main point -to accept contraception as permisable (and sex between adults as a private matter). Only the Catholic Church stood firm against contraception and Pope Paul VI was only repeating accepted teachings. But even Bishops around the world were questioning rejection of the “pill” and that was why it was called dissent instead of heresy. The poor nations quickly saw they needed God and came back, but the industrialized nations did not and chose contraception.

  24. tednkate Avatar
    tednkate

    No, Mary (Kochan): I had a good laugh too reading this.

    I can just picture the author saying “FLAMING HERETIC” and the priest’s eyes just sort of glazing over.

    Actually, I am assuming by the use of the author’s all caps, she kind of shouted at the priest. If true, good to know I am not the only one. Alas, my story isn’t nearly as funny. Hmm, and typing this reply up is causing me to remember it more than I wish, so I’ll wish you a good evening.

    🙂

    Kathyrn

  25. fjindra Avatar

    Wow,

    I can believe this is not tongue-in-cheek. (Yet, it did cause a sad smile.) I have had all too many events happen to me from the other side of ordination. Interesting though, I had an unfortunate encounter with a “Vatican II priest” in 1975 that had no small influence in me leaving the military and heading for the priesthood myself.

    Knowing I do not have the guarantee of infallibility, I often preface my “personal points” with a “red-flag… personal opinion following…” statement. I have many times told my parishioners to challenge me if they think something is said wrong – there have been a few times where I have had to go back and do furhter research to verify my position. And, yes, I have been proven wrong on occasion (I have needed some re-training from my seminary! 🙂 )

    Lastly, thank you for some of your comments regarding Bible Studies. I have been running them in my parishes for years. I usually spend most of the time as a lecturer, with openness to comments. Rather than just “sharing of thoughts/feelings” about the Bible, I have been more directive. Recently I have thought that maybe going more “conversational” might attract more people. I don’t think I will go that way after reading everyone’s comments. Thanks again.

    God bless, everyone.

    Fr. Frank

  26. GaryT Avatar
    GaryT

    Fr. Frank,
    I think sharing can be good in the context of clear church teaching. Perhaps you could start by explaining Church interpretation of a particular passage and then let others share how they attempt to live up to the ideal of the passage, etc. Basically set up your questions so as to avoid the “what do you suppose the author meant here”, but rather “how should I apply this teaching to my life”.

    When my son was going through 1st Eucharist prep, they showed a film that basically emphasized that “Jesus was sharing a meal with his friends, and that is what is important”. I don’t remember the real presence being emphasized at all. I couldnt’t decide if it was explicitly heretical or just tetering at the border of heresy. I sat in stunned silence as our Director or RE gushed about how much she loved the video. I would love to hear from others how is a charitable approach to correctly such teachings when dealing with people who are supposed to be authority figures.

  27. Cooky642 Avatar
    Cooky642

    Claire, thanks: reading through the comments, I wondered if I was the only one who saw God’s Hand in what happened. (On the other hand, that would not be unusual…!)

    Yes, Mary, I did laugh, too: mostly from seeing myself through another person’s eyes! Marilyn and I have a “been there, done that” connection. In my case, one priest just “glazed over” and walked away and it was never discussed again. In the other 2 cases, tantrums were thrown in the middle of (daily) Masses; in one instance, I stepped away to resolve the stand-off; in the other, when the priest finally stopped screaming, he did give me Holy Communion and I never went back to that particular parish.

  28. Doris Rodriguez Avatar
    Doris Rodriguez

    As a young twenty-something in the late 70’s and being the product of a Catholic father and a Protestant mother, I literally had one foot in both worlds. I took a Religious Studies class at St. Edward’s University in Austin while in attendance there and immediately ran into a priest/professor who felt it was his personal mission to debunk all of the miracles of the Old and New Testament. My Protestant ear perked up immediately in protest … and my Catholic ear began to wonder what in the world the Catholic church truly believed about such things. Could this man be speaking for the Church with authority? If so, he and IT was wrong.

    Being young and not very knowledgeable about my faith or the Catholic church, I did not know (or maybe it wasn’t in existence yet) that there was a very large book called the Catechism of the Catholic Church that might have answered a few questions. We also did not have Natural Family Planning at that time in our parish so as a newlywed I ended up choosing the “pill” over the Church after the birth of three beautiful sons … and my Catholic husband and I became fully Protestant for over twenty years, mainly because we knew we were in error and did not want to partake of the Eucharist unworthily or be hypocritical – therefore, we felt like our only option was to leave the Church and “do what seemed right in our own eyes”.

    When we finally “came to our senses” and returned to the Catholic Church, I was armed with my Bible, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Relevant Radio, and Catholic Exchange AND empowered by the presence of the Holy Spirit through the Sacraments, prayers, and devotions of the Church. KNOW YOUR FAITH! TEACH YOUR FAITH! DEFEND YOUR FAITH! I wasted so many precious years being confused and on the outside looking in … and I wouldn’t want that for anyone! Being Catholic is not always easy; as a matter of fact, it is often very difficult, but I know that the Church teaches the TRUTH and I want to live in that truth to the very best of my ability. God bless.

  29. noelfitz Avatar
    noelfitz

    Cooky642
    You wrote:
    In the other 2 cases, tantrums were thrown in the middle of (daily) Masses; in one instance, I stepped away to resolve the stand-off; in the other, when the priest finally stopped screaming, he did give me Holy Communion and I never went back to that particular parish.

    I was sorry to read this. I really wonder does your post help to build up the Church.

    God bless,

    NoelFitz.
    _________________________________________________

    In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
    _________________________________________________

  30. HomeschoolNfpDad Avatar
    HomeschoolNfpDad

    Noel, I think Cooky’s post does help to build up the Church. The behavior, perhaps, does not — but neither does priestly dissent that is voiced during the Mass. As for speaking of it afterward, the Church is supposed to reflect the Light of Christ. That Light is intended to reveal all that is hidden. What I see in Cooky’s post is that she spoke with a priest outside of Mass, and he then chose to blow up in front of everyone during the Mass. He was still in possession of his free will. He was not directly provoked. He simply chose to behave inappropriately. That is an abuse of the sacred trust given to priests as stewards of the Mass — and light must be shone upon it to correct the priest.

    A priest speaks of the Truth with his very person. Therefore, when a priest openly dissents from the Church — not makes a mistake or has a bad day or proves himself human but openly and repeatedly dissents — he winds up preaching the Truth without living it himself. That makes him a Pharisee — which given the charged nature of heretic, might be a better description of the behavior described in this article. Indeed, if one refers back to the Catechism of the Council of Trent, in which the council Fathers admonish the faithful to obey even wicked pastors, it is clear that such was the intent of the council. The justification for obedience granted to wicked pastors is that they nevertheless speak the Truth, just as Jesus observed to His disciples about the Pharisees: they spoke the truth but did not live it. Therefore, Jesus concludes that His disciples must obey the Truthful commands even of those who do not live the Truth themselves.

    This, of course, requires that the ordained, religious and lay faithful all understand what it means to obey. On the one hand, we ought readily to obey even the prudential commands of a bishop, priest, or lay member of the diocesan or parish staff. But commands (and especially prudential commands) must be in accord with Divine Law — and therefore with Natural Law. No authority can command obedience to an immoral act. Such commands are themselves void immediately. Setting them aside, though spoken by a priest or bishop, is the solemn duty of all the faithful. Challenging such commands, if possible, is also our solemn duty. I have found that gentle but firm argument is the best way to address these sorts of problems, which suggests that starting out by writing a letter is a good idea. Writing a letter allows you to think over your words carefully and to correct any unnecessary incordiality before mailing. Writing a letter also allows you to think through what transpired so that if you are making a mountain out of a molehill, you can simply throw the paper away or delete the file. I have written several such letters but sent only a few.

    Of course you may not be successful with any of this. So pray, especially for any individual who has wronged the Church.

  31. HomeschoolNfpDad Avatar
    HomeschoolNfpDad

    I should also add that in every one of these cases, there is a clear right and a clear wrong — but the facts are usually muddled, often by our own perceptions. Stepping away and getting a different perspective is always a good idea — a fact I can attest to from both the positive experience of doing so and the negative experience of failing to do so.

  32. Grace Harman Avatar
    Grace Harman

    Heresy is denial of Church Truth. The term “dissent” came to be with the rejection of Humanae Vitae which was NOT a new teaching, but merely reaffirmed tradietional Church teachings on contraception. Priests and Bishops from around the world were misled by Humanist ideas, but the poorer nations quickly saw that they needed God more than they needed “birth control”. Sadly industrialized nations chose to cut their population and found out too late they then needed to import workers to do work they were too old to do.
    Dissent IS heresy. Abortion IS murder. A baby IS human from fertilization on and that is science.

  33. jlwrocks Avatar
    jlwrocks

    A heretic as defined in the catholic source book is an individual who has been baptized but is denying some of the truths taught by Jesus.As per this definition Mr.U is a heretic–the issue here is if he is aware that what he is teaching isn’t correct.I believe the real problem lies with the lack of sufficient teaching of what the church teaches to be true.Catechism lessons need to be based on Jesus (every lesson-no exceptions).The priests need to convey all that the church teaches from the pulpit.All to often some priests do not talk about confession,eucharist being real,abortion and many other things that might offend some of the people.It is my opinion that if we are instructed correctly and often,we will return if we stray from the path for we know where to return.If we are not taught correctly then we might not reaquire the path that God meant for us and that would be a terrible uneccessary loss of souls.I’m still trying to learn what I should have known decades ago.I’m very fortunate to have a wonderful priest now that clearly is doing his best to instruct us properly.It is a wonderful gift from God.

  34. Mary Kochan Avatar
    Mary Kochan

    Grace, thank you for pointing that out about the term “dissent” — that never occured to me before: the very word itself was adopted to provide cover for people who in earlier times would have been identified as the heretics they were.

  35. HomeschoolNfpDad Avatar
    HomeschoolNfpDad

    There still might be better ways of communicating about the problem. Calling dissent “heresy” will probably get people to close their minds off to further communication. Calling dissent “sinful” might just get some folks thinking instead.

    Moreover, I get the feeling that the term “Pharisee” is commonly used (incorrectly, I might add) to refer to Catholics (like us) who understand the Law and attempt to apply it to our daily lives, giving a pass either to ignoring the Law (which is anti-Christian) or ignoring personal application thereof (which is what a true Pharisee does).

  36. madhattertea Avatar

    What bothers me the most from this story(great article BTW, so no criticism of the author first off) was the part where Mr. U., the bible study leader is presumed to have absolute authority, which I find to be the case in most “post Vatican II” DRE’s and those they place in the teaching ministry. I wonder why the Pope cannot ‘demand’ absolute compliance, yet they demand it. They tend to be real tyrants.

    I never understood it.

    This article illustrates that perfectly.

    madeline

  37. noelfitz Avatar
    noelfitz

    This is a great discussion. It has provided laughs and is deadly serious.

    It is like old times when in the Forum “Faith and Life” we used to have great discussions among believing Catholics who differed on inessentials. I look forward to having the Forums open again.

    I have just been reading a wonderful article on “Deepening the Reception of Dei Verbum: the Bishops Synod on the Word of God”. Essentially it was very encouraging. In the Church today Bible appreciation has increased. Implementation of the ideqas of Dei Verbum has grown over the years. The recent Bishops’ Synod on the Word of God was a great success.

    Minor local problems should not make us forget the Holy Spirit is still with the Church and there is no need to fear scholarship.

    I quote “The Synod restated that the Word of God lies at the very heart of the Church’s life and mission”, however during the Synod “[t]here was frequent reference to fundamentalist misrepresentation of Scripture and to the sects”.

    God bless,

    NoelFitz.
    _________________________________________________

    In necessariis, unitas; in dubiis, libertas; in omnibus, caritas.
    _________________________________________________

  38. yblegen Avatar
    yblegen

    I, too, laughed so hard I have tears in my eyes!!!!

    Hey, I took an applied biblical studies course in my parish. The course was suppose to be on the book of Genesis, but it turned out to be a course in mythology. No one,except myself, in that class seemed to have a problem with that.

  39. Cooky642 Avatar
    Cooky642

    Dear Noelfitz,
    Yes, I believe my 2nd post DOES serve to build up the Church in the sense that lay Catholics have RIGHTS they may not be aware of. Sorry, can’t point you to a website where they are listed and laid out for you. One of them is to receive Holy Communion when you present yourself, another Right is to be taught the truth of the Magisterium. The laity cannot defend themselves from abusive priests (and I mean THEOLOGICALLY abusive) if they don’t know they can!

    To NFPDad (sorry for the shorthand): The only incident that happened outside of Mass was the first. Fr. was talking liabilty insurance (as a cover for his lack of enthusiam for the Real Presence), and I laid out precisely why I was genuflecting before receiving Jesus. He had no answer, but often referred to me (and others) as “being more Catholic than the Pope”. The other 2 incidents did happen within the context of thinly-attended daily Mass. The one priest fancied himself an actor (my opinion: he missed his calling in life) and regularly abused the proper form of Transubstantiation. When he “caught” me checking up on his performance, he stopped Mass, threw himself into a pew, and declared he couldn’t go on with the “orthodoxy police” checking his every move. I thought, frankly, that my 2-yr-old granddaughter could teach him a thing or three about throwing a proper tantrum, but I apologized to him and the congregation and went into the next room which was an Adoration chapel. As I expected, he gathered sympthizers around him, and eventually finished the Mass. The last incident actually happened between the other two. I was visiting a parish I’d never been to because I’d heard the pastor was the one who had led me back into the Church when I re-verted. I’d planned a happy reunion after Mass. When I genuflected before receiving Jesus, he lost it. (I never did reveal our previous connection to him–obviously, we’d both changed way beyond the “happy reunion” stage in the interim.)

    Sorry this is so long and detailed, but you can’t form the proper conclusions if you don’t know what happened. Perhaps my story will help others stand up for the truth civilly and politely but firmly.

  40. HomeschoolNfpDad Avatar
    HomeschoolNfpDad

    Cooky, you should try going to a Spanish Mass. The music is hit or miss. However, many people will genuflect or kneel immediately prior to receiving the Blessed Sacrament. And there are still grandmothers in the pews who might have firm and proper words for anyone who thought to criticize such action.

  41. Cooky642 Avatar
    Cooky642

    Thanks for the encouragement, HomeschoolNfpDad. I have been to several Spanish Masses (even though my grasp of Espanol loses a lot in the ‘translation’ [sorry: couldn’t resist!]). My stories came from years ago, and I am now too diabled to genuflect anywhere for any reason, so the issue is moot. However, I was pleasantly surprised to find that, when I genuflected, others began doing it, too. I’m sure the first priest, the pastor, pulled his hair out over it, but he never mentioned it again. Don’tcha just love what God can do with a little faithfulness on our part???! 😉

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