Catholic Exchange

The Incoherence of Atheism, Part 2

Last week, we discussed one facet of the incoherence of atheism, namely its dependence on materialism and naturalism to try to explain away the supernatural.  It seems like a pretty promising road at first.  The atheist loves to recite little tropes like "Once, people thought thunder was the voice of God.  Now we know that it's caused by discharges of electricity."  And so, we are invited to assume that absolutely everything is equally explicable in terms of material causes.

The problem is that, as we saw last week, a purely material explanation of the human mind itself means that the human mind is not free, but is merely a result of mindless chemical processes.  And we know that thoughts which are merely caused by nature, yet not rooted in a rational soul that is created in the image and likeness of the Reason or Logos of God are valid, at best, only by luck and usually not at all.  The proof of this is seen in the way materialists themselves talk:  "People who claim to see ghosts are suffering from a chemical imbalance that causes them to see things that aren't there."  Likewise, most humans argue along the same lines: "He doesn't believe in capitalism because of a sound reason.  He believes in it because he wants to keep his money"; "You trust the police because you are a fascist"; "You believe in God because you need a Father figure to keep you safe."  Thoughts which are merely caused by irrational forces but not rooted in Reason are, in short, just electrochemical activity that happens to be going on in a three pound piece of meat behind your eyes.  Yet that is what all thought must be according to the atheist, because nature is all there is.

Now the curious thing is that atheists themselves do not really believe this, if we watch what they do and not merely what they say.  For atheist authors like Daniel Dennett and Richard Dawkins do pretty much nothing all day but give lectures and write books like Breaking the Spell and The God Delusion in which they try to persuade people to freely change their minds about belief in God.  But if what we call free will and reason are simply illusions (as atheist materialists like William Provine claim) then this a monumental exercise in wasted time.

 Beyond this, however, is the curious fact that atheists do not simply live as though free will and reason are real despite their own rhetoric: they even compound this by getting angry at theists.  They do not simply speak like mathematicians coolly concerned about an erroneous miscalculation.  They typically write as moralists outraged at evil and even (perish the thought) sin!  And so we get the peculiar spectacle of the atheist attempting to say, "La de dah!  Religion is completely transparent and soluble to the Rational Mind" as he tries to come up with a completely naturalistic explanation of its origins.  Yet, at the same time, the atheist is given to outbursts of anger and rage at "faithheads" and "Godidiots" whose religious beliefs are the source of everything from the Holocaust to long lines at the post office during Christmas.  Read virtually any atheist for even a few pages and the anger strikes you in the face like the heat of a furnace.

But here's the thing: a man like Dawkins (whose expertise is actually in creatures like wasps), does not seem to have any outrage at all for these critters when they lay their eggs in a paralyzed insect and leave their young to eat their way out of the helpless victim.  Yet by his own account, the religious impulse is just as much an artifact of blind and purposeless forces as the wasp's breeding habits.  So why all the outrage?

Moral: One can be a materialist or a moralist, but not both.  Most atheists are emphatically both, claiming that religion is a purely natural secretion of the brain, just as insulin is a purely natural secretion of the pancreas.  But if religion is a naturalistically evolved epiphenomenon of the brain that can no more be eliminated than the pancreas' naturalistically evolved tendency to secrete insulin, why get angry at it?  Do we berate the modern pancreas for having so much in common with the pancreas of our barbaric ancestors?  Why then, are atheists so irritated at ordinary human beings for having brains which, by their own account, cannot resist the impulse to see Somebody at work behind the natural order, just as our (allegedly) foolish ancestors did?  Why, it's almost as though atheists are conscious of a human relationship to some supernatural standard of goodness which other creatures do not share since they lack a free rational soul.

And that leads to a final question, which we will look at next week.

(This piece was first published in the National Catholic Register.)

Comments

79 responses to “The Incoherence of Atheism, Part 2”

  1. Guest Avatar
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    Mark, I am trying to give latitude to this article,but alas I can not:

    (1). All points you make are grouded on atheistic matrerial reductionsim which proves fatal to this article.

    (2). Most modern and contemporary literary atheists – Rorty, Bernstein, Putnam, Dewey, James, Mill – are mostly insouciant about theories of the ultimate nature of things such as materialistic reductionism. Most of them dismissive of all -isms! This insouciance drives theists crazy and angers them towards atheists, calling forth all sorts of real un-Christian epithets!

    (3). And,furthermore, for those who do espouse matrerialism, they are not committed viz. " materialism" to any strict determinism such that no free will or reason in the human being is granted. Soft determinism, as just one example, allows that the neurochemical workings of the brain exhibit many and frequent pauses whereby we mull over, deliberate, think, and will. Thus, Dawkins and Dennett are not incoherent atheists because they attempt to persuade people as you claim. Locke when faced with a similar accusation replied. [ paraphrase] " So you, who believe in God, can not grant that the Almighty Creator of matter might have created thinking matter?" The weakness of your grounding argument- materialism – is virtually fatal to your article, Mark. (4). That one can not be both a materialist and a moralist is wrong. As mentioned, most literary atheists ( above) are just insouciant about "materialism" in the first place, and their works are replete with moral /ethical concerns, especially Rorty. The entire corpus of Western moral philosophical literature is chocked full of moral concerns  penned by [ supposed ]materialistic moralists! To hold your point on this, you would have to argue that their notion of morality is not truly morality at all. Can you do that?

    (5). As to the incoherence of the atheist who decries the religious impulse while explaining religion as a natural impulse in the human…the answer by the atheist must be that not all things natural are natural goods! For him, the natural impulse to religion -especially if that impulse engenders certain undesirable human behaviors, dispositions,and beliefs- is a natural bad. Thus the impulse must be attenuated. The pancreas naturally secretes digestive enzymes, and that is a natural good. But the pancreas can become naturally cancerous or cease secreting insulin, and these are natural bads.

    (6). You ask, " Why the [atheists's] outrage…" Mark, I can't quite believe that someone of your intellect and scope of literacy can find no legitamate criticism of Christianity. Can only an insider critique? I trust this is not your position. We should listen to the valid arguments of our deteractors, just as Copenhagen should have listened to Kierkegaard, Europe and America to parts of Nietzsche,  Dewey, Rorty, and others. You will do no good nor argumentatively win in attempting to portray atheists as incoherent or irrational. But, when they claim of us that we hold irrationmal beliefs – the supra natural realm, Incarnation, hypostatic union,Resurrection, trans-substantiation – they are correct. Yet, here it is here that mystery enters!

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    The reason for the anger of atheists is simple. It's called sin. The atheist does not want to "owe" God anything, does not want to admit that he was created and is held in existence by Another, does not want to be subject to Someone other than himself. He wants to choose his own code of behavior, pick and choose his ethical and moral stances, and justify this self-idolatry by stating that the One Who made him doesn't exist.

    I would be angry if I was an atheist. I would spend my life vehemently and vituperatively and loudly trying to justify my way of life, my "sins."

    The real danger is the atheist who has lost his anger, and instead found a more sinister apathy toward good and evil–someone who refuses to fight because the fire that once animated his heart has been coaxed into dust by the lies of the Evil One.

    At the abortion mill where I sidewalk counsel, I have observed that the most adamant and vilely angry abortion-bound couples are the ones closest to conversion. The regulars, like the workers and the abortionist, are the ones who ignore us and who don't even give us the finger anymore; they have found a complacency in their sin.

    I sincerely believe that the same is true of atheists. The ones who decry the existence of God the loudest are the ones whose feet are hurting from running in His direction, whether they acknowledge it or not.

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    @lwall

    You are confusing. I do not understand why you rush to the defense of atheists so quickly and why you attack Mr. Shea's points so vehemently. The article and points are extremely cogent and scholarly. Can you please explain why you take offense at having the inconsistencies and transparencies of atheist "beliefs" exposed?

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    To Candeo: I have patiently and thoroughly explained the deficiencies of Marks's article. I do not believe his arguments are academic at all and I argue this judgment. His entire article is premised and grounded on assigning a materialist reductionist view to atheists ibywhich Mark tried to catch'em in an "incoherency" viz. free will and reason;  which attempt,as I explained, fails. Please refrain from knee jerk and emotional responses, so quickly to defend poor Mark. He, just like all of us, should be evaluated on the merits of his words. I am certain that Mark would agree. However, this is almost never done.  Why not relax, sit back, and address the points I made one at a time. I even listed them 1-6 for you and everyone. Now, I personally know no angry atheists nor do I encounter anger when reading those listed in my post. I am sure there are some angry atheists and for various resaons. There are some very hostile Christians too.! So much for anger.  It is strictly an hominem retort and does no work in communicating ideas with or about these  peoples with whom we happen to inhabit the earth and upon whom God shines his light too ( on the just and unjust, the righteous and unrightreous… remember Scripture?) 

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    As to the incoherence of the atheist who decries the religious impulse while explaining religion as a natural impulse in the human…the answer by the atheist must be that not all things natural are natural goods! For him, the natural impulse to religion -especially if that impulse engenders certain undesirable human behaviors, dispositions,and beliefs- is a natural bad.

    You miss the point. Where does good or bad come from? If they are natural they are neither good not bad. Good and bad only come from supernature. The supernatural is precisely what they are trying to deny. You are right that most atheists try to avoid this problem by simple not thinking it through. They want the fruit of christianity but they want to get rid of the trees. They just ignore the fact that fruit comes from trees.

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    To Randy Gritter:This ridiculous and unlearned complaint – namely,that atheists have no warrant to denominate experience or values as good or bad b/c they reject supernature – is such a shop-worn and boring criticism that I am almost unable to tap the keyboard in response. Fot the last time, please!  Humans are capable of ajudicatng things as good/desirable or as bad/undesirable without that judgment having to refer to a supernatural location or source of  Good or Bad. I can hardly believe what my fellow Christians think! No wonder we get such a bad rap! Sorry, but I do not "miss the point." I get very well your dogmatic point. For the last time, good does not entail God unless you believe in God. 

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    lwall:



    Mark's explanation is easy for this pew Catholic to follow.  Yours is not.  I do not understand some of your references.  I do not follow some of your arguments. Those that I do get do not seem to have anything to do with what I have read of what Dawkins and Dennet have put out there, and I am unfamiliar with the "literary" atheists that you name.


    Are you saying that these atheists do not believe that everything is reduced to physical explanations, and that they believe there is, in fact, a realm that is outside of the ability of our senses to perceive? That is all I can understand from your term materialist reductionist, since I have made no study of atheism. 


    In fact, my only contacts with atheism are when someone who is waving its banner comes forward to castigate most of the people in the world (who are trying to use their beliefs in God, whatever they may be, to make the world they find a better place.)  Atheists have a right to preach their religious views and deists of all stripes, including Christians, have a right to relate to their understandings of such preachings by comparing and contrasting to their own views.


    My point is: if you want us to understand the atheist religious understanding, you will have to relate it in some way to Catholic religious understanding, since this is a Catholic site.  Most of us are not as erudite as Mark Shea in the areas of comparing religious understandings, and if you wish to influence our understanding, you will have to use vocabulary and imagery that we can follow.


    If you just wish to argue with Mark Shea, email works better.
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    Iwall:  Are you familiar with the word "bombastic"?  I suspect you write, not so much because you believe or disbelieve this or that, but you have some need to be seen as a very smart fellow that reads the right books – much smarter then the unwashed that differ with you – which you may very well be. I had a couple profs in college like that and I never learned anything from them.

    Have you noticed that people are not persuaded to your views? You should not be so impatient with them.  It may not be because you teach from a couple levels above them, it could be that you simply do not know how to be convincing. Let me suggest something that might help.  Try to make the same points, but leave out all of the big two dollar words, leave out the references to various big-time authors, and pretend that you see others as having an intellect equal to your own.

     

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    The six points made are good points, but it essentially brings us to the real conflict between the two beliefs.  I feel the point that Mark was making is that in fact atheists can and do moralize, but to do so implies that the morality of one person is better than that of another person which is contrary to atheism.  An atheist may be able to moralize, since this is a natural human activity, but atheism cannot as it is the lack of belief in any standard.  This is in direct contrast to Christianity which states that only one morality is correct the one that is from God. 

           The incoherence of stating that certain things are good and others bad, but then stating that there is no standard by which to judge what is good and bad is obvious.  If hundreds of athiests get together and decide on a standard of right(them) and wrong(us) then they have ceased to be aethists and have begun to have some sort of theism.

         This is similar to the incoherence of anarchy.  If I am a member of a group of anarchists then I am forming a certain set of opinions and desires for action.  This is of course the opposite of anarchy.

         This is not to say that the logic that the atheists have leads them directly to Christianity, but it does lead them to either anarchy, which as I stated has its own incoherence, or to some form of theism. 

          

    God Bless,

  10. Guest Avatar
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    My God! I am appalled! It is Mark's deployment of materaialism that I critique. This you do not understand!! You sound like a blind disciple /devotee of Mark Shea. I doubt that Mark would feel satisifed with such a confession of ignorance from his entire readership. I certainly hope not anyway! The points in criticism I make of Mark' material reductionist criticism of atheism  [ viz. his unsuccessfully argued claim of the "incoherency of  atheism"]; that good does not imply God; the "religion is natural " inconsistency Mark sees atheists as making; that one can not be both a naturalist ( even a materialist) and moralist at the same time …all of my points of criticism are rather elementary. I am equally appalled that you have read none of the writers I mention, yet are comfortable with your state of ignorance and cock-sure about all of Mark's points. It seems you want only to have your own beliefs and affirmations echoed and tickled by him or whomever. Simple metaphors you want? And you wish to have it all related to Catholic religious understanding? You want spoon feedings it seems. Why don't you get off your duff and read something! The Catholic understanding ypu mention includes attempts at reconciliation of those "not of our ilk", and that does not mean only conversion. We would do much better trying to underscore our commonalities with atheists, viz. ethical/ moral vision, the poor, education, freedoms, philanthropy, employment, wide sentiments of solidarity both here and abroad …better than assailing them for their alleged "incoherence". It does no work except negative work! By the way, Mark probably will respond to my earlier post. Thanks.

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    @lwall
    For someone who labels my simple question about why you rush to defend atheists as a "knee jerk and emotional" response, I find your knee jerk, emotional response to Randy Gritter quite amusing.

    On to your points. Please note that I do not disagree with you on all of them.

    (1) You do not need (1) because you go on to qualify the statement in (3).

    (2) I assume you are referencing Mr. Dawkins' refusal to address the problem of free will by changing the topic before any inconsistencies in his beliefs could be publicly exposed (see "Incoherency," Part I). You enumerate atheists who casually dismiss "materialist reductionism" (which, for we newbs, attempts to reduce all things to matter and energy, and "assumes that all consciousness can be reduced to mere brain activity").

    I think what you are saying in (2) is that we cannot even meet for discussion on these topics because they are simply unimportant for atheists; they refuse to do battle on those grounds. Just as we cannot argue anything with people who deny reality and the existence of objective truth, we can't argue with atheists about free will. That is what I think you are saying; correct me if I am wrong. And if that is what you are saying, then I DISAGREE with that point.

    We theists should not allow atheists to retreat from a discussion purely on the basis of their own discomfort. (Is there NO atheist with enough guts to step up to the plate and answer questions on these issues? Is the threat of embarrassment so great?) That is precisely because their discomfort is most likely due to the fact that there is inconsistency in their concocted and self-defined belief system that can, with good discussion, be brought to light so that the Truth (Who is Christ) can reign.

    (3) What you are saying here is: If we theists can make up a God and follow His rules, atheists can make up anything they want to justify living any way they want. This means that atheists who adhere to material reductionism can still concoct a system that includes free will, deliberation, and thought. I don't disagree that they can come up with any system they want, but it won't be the right one, because there is only one "right" "morality."

    (4) Here is where the real debate begins. You say: "That one cannot be both a materialist and a moralist is wrong…To prove [that this is incorrect], you would have to argue that [the materialist moralist atheist's] notion of morality is not truly morality at all. Can you do this?"

    YES, but only if a common premise can be agreed upon: the existence of absolute truth, and a corollary, that moral absolute truth exists. If you cannot agree on this, there is no convincing an atheist that his concocted system of "morality" is any "worse" than your own, and you certainly cannot show him how "materialism" and "morality" are diametrically opposed. You can, however, point out the foolishness and problems resulting from having a subjective view of morality–for example, unstable and unsafe societies: "My moral code does not admit that murder is wrong; therefore, I may murder you and still remain 'moral.'" ETC.

    (5) "Natural goods" and "natural bads." I think Randy Gritter did an excellent job addressing this. The atheist has no right to discuss (or define) what is "good" and what is "bad" because these notions are placed in us by the very God he denies; they are inherent in who we are as human beings, inscribed in our hearts according to the Natural Law, of which God is the Author. So admitting the existence of "good" and "evil" is ipso facto an admission of the existence of God (though atheists will never admit this). Yet, how do they explain natural law, this ingrained sense of good and evil? Do the atoms just fall randomly the same way inside all of us? (And they think our belief in God is far-fetched?)

    (6) We are all fallen, defective human beings. There have always been errant Christians, even "bad" ones. Everyone has the right to criticize members of the Church. But this does not mean that the truths of our faith are unreasonable or that our faith is blind. For more information about this, I urge you to read "Fides et Ratio" by JPII, in which he describes the beautiful marriage of Faith and Reason. "Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2)."

    And by the way, mysteries are not illogical. They are inexplicable.

  12. Guest Avatar
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    BTW, excellent response, Mr. Stengel. Succinct and to the point (which I hardly ever accomplish).

  13. Guest Avatar
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    A few quick responses. I do not have a knee jerk response. And,Yes, I am saying that the free will argument is pointless. There are goods that atheists and you share. The premise of absolute truth prejudices the argument in favor of theists. This is what atheists abjure. You point 5 is embarrassingly circular, my friend! Inherent in the human being does not mean "..and put there by God.." necessarily. Do you know of anyone who extols murder as an example of atheistic immorality? The only point I agree with is your last sentence.

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    "good/desirable good/ desirable or as bad/undesirable or as bad/undesirable." 

    The atheist can claim NOTHING more then that what he/she complains about is UNDISIREABLE to he / she.  They have absolutely no frame of reference by which to argue that the same things should or should not be undesirable to anyone else, because the presupposition that the supernatural ( note: I did not say God or gods) does not exist is the equivalent to the assertion that the natural is all that exists.

      The natural normally being defined to the realm of that which is materialistically explainable. For an atheist to claim _I_ should or should not do or believe ANYTHING is to falsify their own base assumption.  They make the claim that there are no transcendent absolutes by which the natural world can be judged.  To claim _I_ should do or believe anything is to appeal to a whole series of assumptions which in the end are entirely unjustified if there is no moral transcendence. 

    Specifically: Any claim that _I_ or anyone other then the atheist themselves should or should not believe anything appeals at least to these principles. 

    1) one should not believe what is not true and belief should be based on evidence and reason.

    2) we should care about the affects of our actions, including our beliefs, on others the world etc.

    3) we should be motivated by something other the pure selfishness and maximal self pleasure ( short and long term).

    4) long term cumulative (good) is better then short term good that shortens ones life. 

    Lwall –  since you claim to have such in depth knowledge of atheistic philosophy can you explain to me starting with the assumption that there is no transcendent absolute that any one of the above is logically sustainable?

    Especially number 1: ( because if it isn’t the rest are obviously not sustainable OR at least wholly irrelevant)

    I hold that anyone who claims there is no morally transcendent absolute has no right to speak in the public square because their basic belief disavows any real value of public discourse.  So publicly claiming that anyone ( other then themselves) should believe anything is hypocrisy at best and intentionally dishonest at worse.

    Also, could you please explain to me on what principle the idea that I should care what an atheist has to say can be based.

     

    I think from the athiestic prespective it is untenable.

    and from the christian prespective it is equally untenable because any argument they might make starts from the complete false princple and is therfore bound to be frought with error.

    In the end athiesm is the belief that something which does exist does not exist and as such is a form of insanity.  Not really different from someone who doesn't believe that hitting people with a baseball bat hurt s them.  It primary diffence is that nearly every one suffers from it to some degree.

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    Iwall,

    You strike me as being very supercilious.

    1)  It is not necessary for me to read every book on a given topic to form an opinion as to whether the author of an article on that topic is making sense.

    2)  In this case, Mark Shea makes a great amount of sense.  He says nothing contradictory that I can see, and yet your arguments seem to be full of contradictions.

    Feel free to send me a library of books on atheism or by atheists, but I doubt that reading any or all of them will change either of the two views I've stated above.  Why?  Because nothing beyond what Mark Shea said, needs to be said to understand his point of view.

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    "Do you know anyone who extols murder as an example of atheistic immorality?"

     

        This statement is exactly the point trying to be made.  There are common moral principles among us and the atheists, but the question is, why?  The fact that they in the end come to many of the same conclusions is the very point trying to be made.  If I by means of faith and reason come to the Truth and you by pure reason come to the same truth what does that say about truth?  Is it universal or pluralistic?  If an atheist condems murder for being wrong both personally and universally how can he/she then say I personally (by pure reason) came to the conclusion that eugenics is ok (has been done) and not demand that it be universally acceptable? 

         The problem is that there is a desire by atheists to have both set standards on some things and be pluralistic on others.  While this can be done (Christianity does it), it does not fit a purely rational system which would either be dogmatic, overbearing, and moralized or completely pluralistic.  If it is both then it contradicts itself.

          Christianity however avoids this problem by not trying to rely purely on reason or purely on faith.  Most of the heresies in Church history have arisen by someone trying to eliminate faith or eliminate reason. Follows a good quote, "Love without truth, lies.  Truth without love, kills."

     

    God Bless

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    Lwall – try this on for size and see if you can argue with it from the perspective of atheism.

      

    Premise 1:

    If ( “god does not exist”) is a true statement, then what is true is less important then what is pleasurable , because the only relevance of truth is how it affects the potential of pleasure and pain I encounter. So the truth of the statement “god does not exist” is less important then what is pleasurable.

     

    Premise 2:

    I claim and can easily prove to myself at least it is more pleasurable to believe without reservation that God does in fact exist then to believe he does not.

     

    Thus it is proved if “god does not exist” is a true statement then is a wholly irrelevant one to and I should not believe it to be true even if it is in fact true.

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    "Do you know anyone who extols murder as an example of atheistic immorality?" 

    I assume you mean athiestic morality?

    Yes. the children and columbine high school and Mr. Chou of virgina tech fame are two recent examples. 

    They all claimed what that what they did was not wrong because of the fact that there is no God. 

    It is a common enough claim about sex and other things.  I have known many people who justifed both theft and rape in exactly the same fashion.  It is very common amongst the promoters of abortion and Gay rights and it is not a difficualt step of reasoning to extend it to murder.

     

    If it is not wrong to have sex when and how you please because there is no God. It follows in like fashion it is not wrong to have an abortion.  If it is not wrong to have an abortion it follows that it is not wrong to 'abort' post delievy people of any age and health when they are a sufficent inconvience.

    I know some people who, at least claim, to believe that whole heartedly and the only reason they don't murder people is because they don't want to be punished.  Many of them are members of the 'goth' sub culture.  Othes are common criminals. a few have been put in jail.

     

    One of the problems I have with your defense lwall, is you are defendending academics who write books and don't really put what they believe into practice.  I have known people who believe and practice fully what the academics only pretend to believe and they are not good or happy people.  In fact some of them are out right dangerous to be around, because they have utter contempt for human life including thier own.

     

     

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    Columbine and VMI exemplify mental illness. The people you know as goths are certainly not formed by atheism, especially the humanitarian atheists, although they may beatheists. The evil is in this world is not exclusively due to any particular world view. The people I know as atheists are not hypocrites,sorry. This incoherence argument is lame all the way down. It does not work.

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    To the attention of the site moderator. Please stop this madness. There is no point in continuing this 'discussion' on the criticism of Mr. Shea'a article initiated by lwall. It should be clear that the exchange is not producing anything besides the lw

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    To the attention of the site moderator. Please stop this madness. There is no point in continuing this 'discussion' on the criticism of Mr. Shea'a article initiated by lwall. It should be clear that the exchange is not producing anything besides the lw

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    No problem for me. I will glady recede into the background.

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    I don’t see why lwall should recede into the background. Though I’ve got no skin in this game I like to see the point-counterpoint.

    And thanks, lwall, for giving some white-space to your post. It is much easier to read.

    Michael
    “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried”

    “The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.” – GK Chesterton

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    Lwall, you are quite welcome to the discussion.

    However, your shock ("My God! I am appalled!") at finding that the majority of our readers are not philosophy majors does quickly wear thin.

    What's the difference between the points Mark outlined and the Copleston/Ayers exchange.  Been years since I read it, but I thought it resolved in pretty much the same way, didn't it? I realize that Copleston was facing down positivism, but what I am getting from you is that the that is not the currency of the atheists we face today.

    Elaborate if you like.

    Blessings,

    Mary Kochan, Senior Editor Catholic Exchange.

    PS to all:  None of us are above criticism. Mark would never make that claim about himself or his writings.  The fact that something is hard to understand does not make it wrong… or right. Ditto for it being easy.

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    To mkocan: Thank God for fresh air! Thanks mkocahn. There is a new brand of atheism so to speak ,yes, you are correct. The ones I teach and have familiarity with include the entire pragmatist landscape…James, Dewey, and as you  know ny now, Richard Rorty. These are gentile, sensitive, and  wonderful people. Their take on Christianity is not to be primarily concerned with debunking its claims. Rather they see that  Christianity, even if a fiction, may for some people serve as an locus imaginarus and may advance  values espoused by both so-called atheists and Christians. These values include (1) "sentimental identification" with others by familiarizing oneself from within narrative the stories of the other tribe, (2) creating wider solidarity and narrower invidious distinctions amongst peoples and nations, (3) enlarging the "circle of us", (4) promoting wider toleration, education, freedoms of expression, economic security, and peace. Most contributors to this web post shockingly  believe that these writers ( or the generic " atheists") are sinister folk, incapable of "good" and "morality", irrational, and angry. I believe we can do much to further the Kingdom of God by allying ourselves with tmany of these peoples and their values. I  see in them resonances of Christ and the Church. I suggest further that the epithets "incoherent" and "not rational" aptly apply to our beliefs in the Incarnation, Resurrection, etc…we believe them not because of any knock- down, compelling rational argument that only a fool or a stubborn "sinner" would fail to embrace. We believe because of grace. Others are not so fortunate because prejudiced against God from many angles such that the grace offered them is abjured. Often, I am sorry to say, the lives of Christians make a mockery of the faith as Kierkegaard and others correctly pointed out. But today the atheist philosphers of repute don't run around trumpeting their atheism or criticizing Christianity. They are too busy. What is maddening to many on this post is (1) atheistic recalcitrance and ( 2) atheistic insoucuiance towards what we hold so dear. We need to learn a non-divisive way of relating! 

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    Just a reminder, I'm responding to the so-called "New Atheists" (who are really antique Old Atheists of the 18th and 19th Centuries).  Whatever my readers may say, I emphatically do *not* say that the New Atheists are immoral.  I say that they cannot give a coherent account of their intense moralism, because (if their materialist worldview is true) we live in a Universe of Is from which it is utterly impossible to derive a single real "ought".  Ultimately, their thoughts and feelings regarding good and evil are simply one more biochemical response to a stimulus, having just as much "real truth" as an itch, yawn, or vomit.  Hitchens' rage at theistic perfidy is what the chemicals of his brain happen to be doing at the moment.  The New Atheists are not sinister and immoral.  They are just gloriously inconsistent with their own materialism, to their great credit.

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    Lwall, could you perhaps be more specific on how you think we ought to respond to them.

    Also, do you not agree that atheism requires an intellectual response, beyond asking what natural law conclusions we can mutaully aggree with them on?

    I'm just not sure they are as benign as you suggest. Once their beliefs are concretized in public policy, we see something that resembles what one of the 20th century's greatest philosophers called "a culture of death."

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    I don't think anyone is saying that atheists are immoral, just that arbitrarily defining one's own code of morality is dangerous and leads to societal problems if it does not coincide with what is actually moral and based on absolute truth. And I don't think anyone has said that the New Atheists in particular are immoral.

    I'd like to comment on Mr. Shea's statement: "The New Atheists are not sinister…" I think there is an inherent sinister quality about atheism, New or Old, that mkochan has pointed out regarding the Culture of Death. For instance, a "gentle and sensitive" atheist could easily conclude that it is a "merciful and sensitive" act to euthanize the elderly in nursing homes. (Of course a Christian could too, but it is easier to rationalize such things when you do not acknowledge the Logos.) Or, he could think it the "loving" thing to do to drive his girlfriend to the abortion clinic to get rid of that "parasite." ETC

    What is the origin of this sinister quality? Christian theists believe we are created in the image and likeness of God, and we therefore believe in, value, and protect the sanctity of human life. Anyone who does not have a core belief in God cannot assent to the inherent sanctity of human life as easily, if at all (and if he can, then it is thanks to natural law, which can be "muddied" by our sensibilities and thus misinterpreted, making our notions of it fallible).

    In that sense, atheism is always sinister, and those who choose to espouse its tenets cannot truly be free from its pitfalls and the evils it inspires.

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    mark, thanks for changing topics of your articles.  I'm beginning to enjoy them again.Smile

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    I don't know.  I know many athiests.  Some of whom are very moral people.  What they are not however is people who have any good reason to be moral.  They are moral only because they like being that way.  They have no way of explaining to someone else why they should be moral.  The more honest athiest acknowledges that it really does not make any difference at all weather or not the person next to them believes in God or not and goes about doing thier 'thing' whatever that may be for no other reason then because they want to.

     

    There is no reason a athiest SHOULD be moral or should expect anyone else to act morally.  For instance why should you not commit murder if it makes you happy from the athiestic prespective.

     

    as to chou and those kids at columbine being mentally ill.  I have yet to see any evidnece of that with the exception that they were positively caring out the effects of thier world view.  I'd say any athiest is mental ill though as a foregone conclusion.  They are dilusional because they do not belive that what is real is actually real.

     

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    I just can't help but wondering if Mark and lwall are talking about two different kinds of athiests here.  lwall is referring to athiest philosophers, while the likes of Dawkins are definitely not philosophers.

    I had the misfortune of reading one of Dawkins books thinking I was going to read about evolution.  What I got instead was an attack on religion thinly disguised as science.  I might add that his arguments were thoroughly unconvincing, (nor even logical) in part because he was using the scientific method to attempt to prove things that are inherently beyond the scientific method (and yes I am quite familiar with the scientific method).  It is clear that the likes of Dawkins believes (note here an unprovable point) that the scientific method can be used to disprove the existence of God.  Folks like Dawkins are absolutely incoherent. 

    I won't attempt to make that statement true of all atheists since I have neither read them nor fully understand all of their reasoning.

     

    There is an important point made previously.  As Catholics, our moral philosphy, if you will, depends on a belief that all human life is worth protecting.  We root this in a belief in a loving creator God.  Anyone, atheist or not, who denies the belief in the protection of human life will ultimately promote a culture of death.  And it would be difficult to align ourselves with them.

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    Yeah, but — we seem to be arguing consequentialism here, i.e. atheism is wrong because of its horrible consequences vis a vis human morality when the atheist carries his thinking to its logical conclusion.

    That's pretty weak isn't it? Although I think it is weak through falling short in aiming at what is a better argument: the argument from degrees of perfection.

    Human reason (good philosophy) can get us to the truth that there is a personal God.  It cannot get us to the Trinity, Incarnation, Cross and Resurrection — mysteries of faith.

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    To Mark Shea and mkochan :: Mark, I am afraid that some or even many of your readers do claim that A. are immoral, sinister, and incapable of morality. Regrettably, they have deduced some of these opinions from your posts as you have laid the supposed conceptual underpinnings for these deductions. Ultimately these underpinnings derive from your attribution of a materialistic reductionism held by atheists which materialism, in your view,(1) can not generate nor "account " for moral behavior, (2) engenders egotism and , as with your latest claim, (3) is fatallydevoid of "ought." Mark, I believe you are mistaken in all of this. Some posts, in conformity with your underpinnings, say A. can not possibly be moral because they have no reason to be moral!  ( see post below Fishman et.al). Such an attitude directly derives from your claim that the atheistic materialistic universe precludes morality because, as you argue, all that is really going on is the random deterministic interplay of neurochemicals and neronal circuitry. And one needs much more than this matter- in -motion in order to be moral and capacitated to moral systems thinking. Once again, Mark, materialistic views do not preclude thought, ajudication, choice, goods- based preferencing, and heirarchical arrangement of ethical goods. ( not a bad definition of morality !). Furthermore, and against what you and others might say, even granting for the moment your materialist model, A. have not and do not espouse just any old thing that suits them. There is a biologistic framework and constraint in us humans that virtually guarantees a baseline, albiet, thin human ethic. Further, our biologistic selves engender thicker behaviors of social caring, compassion, sympathy, and a host of others which I will not now list. Consider this  : Catholic, non-Catholic Christians, as well as atheists practice birth control, get abortions, advocate euthanasia, engage in premarital sex and adultery, practice racial prejudice, cheat the IRS, lie, are unforgiving, aggressive, judgmental, etc. ad nauseum. Are we to say that Christainity causes such behavior? Of course not. How do we then claim that atheism has caused these behaviors? There are no necessary moral consequences issuing form atheism. Besides, the more disturbing phenomenon seems to me those Christians referred to above, not the atheists who are not so constained by a religious formation. You will answer that atheists are not in tune with Reality thus untethered to God and the Good. But I thought Christians, being so tightly tethered, would never espouse such atheistic evils! Oh well!  To switch topics. Mark, about the lack of " ought" in atheism – if we can  generalize atheism which I dislike doing. Your claim seems to be that atheists have no legitamate claim to "ought" because neurochemicals and neuronal circuits can not serve as a substratum for "ought"; only God can produce an "ought" in the human. So, you argue, because materialism is devoid of ought, no morality is possible. Furthermore, there can be no ''reasons"' or 'accounts' proffered for this atheistic faux morality. But this view is woefully shortsighted, Mark. "Ought" may derive from the inner pressure/ compulsion of one's biologistic self which generates baseline ethical behaviors and dispositions. "Ought" also derives from one's reflective self, butressed, informed, and augmented by experience and within the pressures and constaints of our social contexts. Humanistic "ought" is not thereby irreducibly subjective but intersubjective, public, and in this sense objective. Thus, Mark, you can not legitamately restrict "ought" to  mean only " I ought to X because it is God's will" as I assume you have done. Another example, look at Kant where "ought" derives from a sui generis moral feeling as one confronts the categorical imperative in conformity with practical reason. There is ought without God, no?  Furthermore, an atheistic rational accounting of "ought" might simply be, " I ought to further a wider inter-group solidarity here, because the goods that follow from this solidarity make for a better world". The A. can feel the internal pressure of "ought" because of his/her passioante committment to making a better world and without having to proffer any further account of "better" than to mean "more harmony, co-operaton, compassion, less greed, more peace, etc."  I assume, however, you and others would require that atheists must first give an "account" of just why these very concrete goods are indeed good? And, from what you have posted, I assume you would conclude that atheists have no basis for giving such an account, no basis for justifying their passion for a wider solidarity because, afterall, they are just reporting the random chemical events bouncing around in their mechanistically determined brains! And in this you would see a glaring incoherence, no? For you it is absurd to believe one can be both a materialist and a moralist, as you previously stated, Mark. I have already explained that your reductionistic model does not preclude thinking, valuing, and the arranging of goods. It does not preclude thought and moral vision. In fact, Catholic tradition teaches natural law. Can not some atheistic morality, as I have descibed it, serve as an instantiation of natural law?  Many atheists would just be indifferent to that accounting. So what! Besides, in reference to your matreialist model, no physicist conceives of matter as "atoms in the void" any longer. Matter is itself an illusive concept ( quarks, meson, bosons, weak and strong intranuclear forces, possibly a substarum of vibrating "strings"..) with unheard of potentials. I hear John Locke once again, Mark: could not God have created thinking matter?  At bottom I believe your "ought" criticism is circular and self-serving : for you,ought is legitamized only in reference to God. One more comment: incoherence and irrational are not the worst things in the world. Do you think my own and your belief in the Incarnation, hypostatic union, trans-substantiation,etc. hang together with rational thought and science; do you think these elements of our faith are rational such that only a fool, dunce, or sinner could fail to be see them as true? We believe these utterly irrational things because we have been graced and that itself is unprovable in argument. No shame in us Christians in quoting Matthew 16,17 here: the basis of our non-rational belief is grace ! Thanks. 

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    To mkochan: I want to  answer your post of Wed 8:44…do I think atheism requires an intellelctual response beyond engaging our shared natural law values…should we "do something" to avoid a culture of death…I hope this adequately represents your question to me…As to intellectual response, if you mean an attempt at intellectual conversion I supposes "yes", but I would qualify this attempt. Most high culture atheists would see no compelling moral reason for conversion since they already regard themselves as paradigmatically ethical. Their conception and empirical perceptions of Christainity counsel them against conversion to a very checkered and ambiguous Christian historical legacy, morally speaking. There would be an aversion to conversion to what they regard as either an unnecessary and superfluous concept God concept or conversion to a clumsy collection of metaphysical baggage that merely encumbers and obtunds the advancement of the truly human project as they see. Here, I think we must grant them their take on things. We will never win the Christian legacy argument no matter how much Christian good we adduce as anti-dote, nor will we score many victories by engaging in "proof of God arguments". We should discuss and persuade by reference to literature, reportage, journalism, even discussion of those writers – even philosophers ! – who might resonante with our vision of goods while employing no references to unshared Scriptural/Tradition teachings. Furthermore,no good to be had by denouncing their beliefs as immoral, irrational, incoherent,etc. We should walk with them as far as possible! Now, regarding your public policy concern, we Christians will ineviatbly run up against the stubborn separation of church-state issue with atheists and even with other Chrsitians. We will be accorded little quarter for religious justification language in the public square. So we must be clever enough to engage by other means. We will probably lose on many issues. Just how can we be persuasive on the town green? Again, we must familarize ourselves with the views of others so as to enable a more friutful interchange. By "view" I do not intend merely intellectual argument but rather getting inside of their concrete feelings;their view of a better world conveyed and informed by narratives, fiction, stories, reportage; visions of a less greedy culture, creation of wider sympathies, imaginative identification with others unlike us, more tolerance, etc. On many issues, however, we will find ourselves able to ally with some others, including atheists, and without compromise where there is commonality of vision. Importantly,we should not disparage views held by atheists  because atheists can not give an account of nor justifiy their beliefs by reference to God. Nor should we worry about their -isms such as materialism. Where there is resonance, there is resonance. I wish the world were truly Christuian. I wish Christians were truly Christian. Yes, positivism is sobering, no?

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    lwall – I think you are greatly deceived, given you last post.

     if your claim that 'ought' can be established without supernatural reference is true.  I suggest you put it to a simple test.

     

     Explain, without supernatural reference, why Hitler 'ought' not to have exterminated every Jew on earth? ( as I assume it is easy for most anyone to agree the ought not ot have).

     

     

    To what principle will you appeal?

     

    biological conditioning? ( obviously Hitler’s biological conditioning lead him to take his actions)

     

    that it doesn't feel right? ( once again biological condition that one should recondition).

     

    Social order? ( Hitler concluded he was improving it and many people believed him)

      

    The fact is that  a 'moral' atheist is a HYPOCRITE in the sense that the do not practice what the preach.  If they really lived out the atheistic ideal they would believe in 'survival of the fittest' and absolute hedonism. Their guiding principles should be 'if it feels good do it'.

     

    That should not exclude theft and murder and their only interest in law should be in how it affects them personally.  Anything less is failing to live out what they claim to be true.

      

    You have made a claim that I perceive as entirely untrue multiple times and I appeal to you for a third time to explain to me how I am in error on this point.

      

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    To Fishman: I shall not reply to your post.

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    sadly then I am left in the darkness having no further knowledge and must continue to belive your idea is wholly incorrect.

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    Fishman, how many atheists do you know who think that what Hitler did was ok?

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    I have met few, I've also run across some Satanist and some people who claimed to be Christian who didn't have a problem with Hitler,

     

    More importantly I have never met a SINGLE atheist who could explain WHY it is unacceptable to them or why anyone else should find it unacceptable.

     

    (consider the importance of that fact against the backdrop of trying to argue against communism or fascism prior to WWII. Or in the context of modern political debate on abortion which has caused the death of many more human beings then Hitler ever did.).

     

    In the bulk of my experience however the conversation usually goes like this:

     

    Me: explain to me why I should not murder you if I think it would be fun and am sure i won't be punished for it?

    Atheist: because that would make you a jerk.

     

    Me: why should I care if you think I'm a jerk when you are dead.

     

    atheist: storms off angry. ( they have no ability to answer the question, because from their perspective I'm entirely within my rights to murder them if I feel like it and can get away with it.)

     

    The same thing happens if you ask them about why Hitler should not have done what he did. They have no better answer then because he was a jerk to which I simply ask ' why shouldn't he be a jerk'.

     

    Hitler himself answer his critics in much the same way by saying "history is written by the victors".

    The logical conclusion is really simple if an atheist has a chance to steal a billion dollars ( or perform any other sufficient personally beneficial action) and get away with it and they don't there can be only one of two reasons:

     

    1) they are not living out the atheistic ideal but instead are letting 'social condition' control their actions uneasily. Thus they are not practicing what the preach but instead are hypocrites.

     

    OR

     

    2) they are feeling the call of God in their heart and obeying ( the atheist of coarse denies the possibility of this option and is restricted to # 1)

     

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    So you don't think that an atheist could subscribe to the Golden Rule? You don't think that an atheist could tell you that you would be wrong (not merely that you would be a jerk) to harm another human being?

    You need to start hanging around with better atheists.

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    lwall,

    I tried to read your long response carefully, and I find some of your arguments unconvincing.

    you wrote:

     "Ought" may derive from the inner pressure/ compulsion of one's biologistic self which generates baseline ethical behaviors and dispositions.

    By this definition, "ought" sounds like a synonym for "instinct".  I would presume that you and I would agree that instinct is not a basis for moral choice. If we behave strictly based on instinct then this is not morality.

    "Ought" also derives from one's reflective self, butressed, informed, and augmented by experience and within the pressures and constaints of our social contexts

    Okay now we are getting at a person making a free will choice, even if it is based on experience or pressure from others.  Free will enables us to make moral choices.  The question here is: does free will exist?

    At the risk of generalizing, athiests generally believe all results can be predicted using the scientific method.  If we can't yet, we will someday.  For instance, if I drop a ball in a vacuum, I can predict with certainty how long it will take to fall to the floor.  Further, this belief in the scientific method denies the possibility of miracles, since by definition, a miracle would be beyond the ability to  predict the outcome. By this definition, free will is a miracle!  (Imagine every last little choice we make disproves science as the sole means of viewing reality!)

     

    So now we have a bit of a conundrum here.  Either our behavior is pure instinct shaped by our experiences in which case there is no possibility of morality or our behavior is miraculous and morality is possible (in which case so is the possibility of a creator God).

     

    I suspect most athiests don't ponder this conundrum very much.  In any case, I do agree with you that they do see the possibility of morality.  The difference between us and them is that we see morality based in God, while they place their authority somewhere else such as a person they respect or perhaps themselves.

    Now the difficulty for an atheist is to decide if their version of morality is objectively true vs. other people's version of morality.  Was Hitler right or was Stalin?  Is social Darwinism right?  Or none of the above?

    Importantly,we should not disparage views held by atheists  because atheists can not give an account of nor justifiy their beliefs

    I certainly agree we need not disparage them for their views or beliefs.  But the important point is to recognize is that atheists, like Christians, base morality on beliefs, not the scientific method, not reason alone.  Please recall that belief and faith are synonyms.  Thus, even athiests must have faith/belief in something, a point that at least some athiests have difficulty admitting.

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    To Gary T : You conflate ought – when understood as "just another one of my blieefs and committments under very high pressue where the  pressure may locate within myself or from community – and instinct. They are vastly different! The former, reflective and even malleable; the later, just the opposite.

    You have also conflated free will and choice. I explain this conflation below.

    You further say that morality is not possible without free will. Now, free will is unprovavble as the long, long history of debate demonstrates. Nor can you prove it nor persuade in its favor. That we exhibit choice, however, is proveable empirically. Indeed we choose but from within a framework of what we might call my "self" – its thin and thick beliefs, its affections, imagination, sentiments, vision etc. Now for the clincher : there is no component in one's self that is radically denuded of and free from this complex self, that is , uninfluenced by this complex self composed of its web of beliefs and desires; no point, moment, or space in which this self can be radically extricated from its web and become "free".

    We freely will, delibearte, and chose, of course, but where "free" can only mean from within and consonant with our complex webs of belief and desire, not against, oppossed to, or away from them. Choosing as a self, where  self is envisaged as a complex, partially malleable web of beliefs and desires, is not the same thing as a the self of free will.

    Furtermore, you can not rescue free will by arguing, plantively as you do, " But, if no free will, then no morality; and since we all know there is morality, thus there must be free will." This argument is circular, my friend. Besides, what if we were to say that morality does not necessarily presuppose God. Lets regard morality as a term we apply to certain behaviors and dispositions which, by our own best communitarian lights, are deemed as beneficial, desirable, and flourishing for us…emerging from, inculcated among our selves,and encoded in our community's history and traditions. Now we need not worry about free will nor refer to God when referring  to morality.  You can only claim that morality presupposes God as a dogmatic assertion.

    Besides, as a Catholic, are you not ardently praying that the Holy Spirit take your freedom anyhow? So why are you worried about free will so much ? Don't you want to be transformed by and into Christ, a New Being in Christ, have all your choices, affections, dispositions, willing, that is to say, your total self and its supposed freedom dominated by Him? You will say probably. " Oh, but I do. But the miraculous thing is that He does all this while preserving my free will."  No? I would then say you are now uttering nonsense. But, if it is important for you to believe it, please do. You will anyway, I suppose.

    Morality seen either as a naturalistic sociological/biologistic phenomenon or as the self under the divine influence of the Holy Spirit attenuates concerns for upholding free will. Once again, free choice, understood as the complex self choosing, deliberating, and willing, is not the same free will.  Anxious and strident concerns for upholding free will now just drop out as superfluous. What is of paramount importance,however, is the composition of your webs of desire and belief. This web is you, and you can not escape it.

    We pray then that what comes to constitute our webs might become more and more consonant with Christ; that we become New Being ; that the Holy Spirit pitch His tent in us, take up residence in us as Scripture.  We pray that He come inside us as the dominating, trumping constituent of my webs of belief and desire; that He Himself compose my web, my self. I wouild gladly renounce my so called free will in order to become as Christ. So I suggest forget trying to catch atheists in some theoretical conumdrum. It really can not suceed conceptually, and it really doesn't matter anyhow. So just forget charges of irrationaity and incoherence – e.g. Mark's entire distribe which is not a very good diatribe anyhow! – as so much vocis flatus as are most invectives aimed at atheists.

    Walk with them in a common effort to better the world; walk as far as you can go with them. Get familiar with them,their visions, as well as their criticisms of your beliefs and mine. Pay attention to the growth and composition of your own web. And, please, stop plucking the strings of your own cello's belief system  so much. Thanks. 

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    To mkochan: To fill in some left out spaces in my response to your previous post to me …When we read John Rawsl ( A Theory of Justice) telling us that public policy, laws, and institutions should be constructed from behind a "veil of ignorance" and from the perspective of the wants and needs of the most downtrodden and impoverished among us….

    When we listen to Richard Rorty tell us that a much greediless and more compassionate hence more flourishing society is to be had by our ceasing to draw invidious distinctions between the saved and unsaved, the sinner and the saint, the rational ones and the irrational ones, the theist and the atheist, those whom God loves and blesses and those He is in the process of negatively judging { the queer, the homo, the prostitute, the addict,etc } . …when Rorty asks us to overcome this immoral cultural habtit – practiced by professed followers of Christ and by others – by a process of what he calls "sentimental education"  wherein we "learn" to identify with others with whom otherwise might not… 

     

    When we hear J.S. Mill lay out the notion of utilitarianism as primarily encompassing the general welfare and good of all…

     

     

    In just these three men do we not also hear the heart and voice of Christ and the Church? Rawls is sounding Christ's actions towards and Church's teaching of " preferential option for the poor."  Rorty is sounding Christ by our going forth unto all nations and peoples including speading blessing and concern for all the above named sinners. Mill is sounding the Catholic tradition of "the common good." There are many more examples as I am sure you must realize. So, what are we to call these three recommendations if not quintessentially moral ? Could we devise a more fitting term? Surely God works His will among those outside His Church. Do we dare acknowledge this?  Apparently, many writing on this post do not. What do you say?

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    lwall – CAN an atheist follow the golden rule ( or any other moral precept if they want too) and insist I should as well of coarse they can and some do.

    Others follow the satanic rule 'do what you wilt'. The difference being that 'do what you wilt' is internally consistent with the statement god does not exist. Where as anything requiring you to NOT 'do as you wilt' can have no context for motivation other then 'feelings' created by social conditioning. In which case there is no reason not to simply recondition the feelings.

    So the only reason an atheist can give for me to follow the golden rule would again be that it makes me a jerk if I don't. To which it can easily be pointed out that viewed rationally within an athiestic context they have appeal to peer pressure in an attempt to control or influence my actions through social conditioning.

     

    whithout god right and wrong .. the whole of morality is nothing more then a matter of taste caused by a combination of physics and enviorment. There is no objective difference between perfering chocolate to plain and pefering murder to mercy. It is all a matter of your personal preference.

     

    Ambrose Bierce put it this way:

    "never to unto others what you would have them to do you. Their sensibilities may not be the same as yours"

     

    I believe Ivan pavlov would have put it this way:

    ' the sooner we get over the free will exists and get about the business of governing through postive and negative conditioning the better off society will be'

     

     

     

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    I also have to wonder if we are not falling into a kind of Gap between theology and philosophy here.

     

    Augustine held ( and i tend to agree and I think it is pretty standard in theology) that an action can not be good unless the intent was also good regardless of weather or not it was the 'right' thing to do.

     

    So from a theological prespective a athiest ( or a pagan ) is incapable of truely doing good because they cannot take action for the love of God.

     

     

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    fishman: Ok. This time I will breifly respond. The phrase "action for the love of God" is ambiguous and indeterminate. (1) How do you know or determine that your action is not rather for the sake of avoiding hell or for the sake of feeling more assured of your salvation? Can you really discern your own motives? Further, how does one judge of another whether his/her actions stem from the love of God or from other motives? (2). This refrain of yours – that good necessarily presupposes belief in God – is not only tiresome but unenlighterned of you. Read the Catechism. Read some documents of Vatican II.  Surely you know that Catholic Tradition holds out for natural law, wherein the human being "knows" the good apart from any explicit and self-conscious belief in God. I am afraid you are just sitting back and shooting from the hip on this post. It would be much to your advantage actually to read lots and lots. 

  47. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    well, you addressed my second post but unfortunately not my first.

    From a theological standpoint it is nearly impossible for a human being to take a completely good action , which is one of the reasons it is even less acceptable to try and judge another’s actions. It would however appear that is a tangential discussion and that I am incorrect that we have a confusion relating to these terms. I am trying minimize the problem of using the same terms and meaning different things by them.

     

    perhaps this would be a more useful approach:

    Would you read the following and tell me if it correctly summarized the arguments you are trying to make?

    http://humanists.net/pdhutcheon/humanist%20articles/Dewey.htm

    If I understand you correctly you are saying that the terms 'morality' and 'free will' can be defined as postulated in the above fashion so that the statement "one can be a materialist or a moralist but not both" is incorrect? Am I understanding properly or have I misunderstood your claim?

    If I have then the problem is really one of definitions.

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

    This definition is taken from the Stanford dictionary of philosophy.

    he term “morality” can be used either

    1. descriptively to refer to a code of conduct put forward by a society or,
    1. some other group, such as a religion, or
    2. accepted by an individual for her own behavior or
  48. normatively to refer to a code of conduct that, given specified conditions, would be put forward by all rational persons.
  49. The article is using the second definition and you apparently are using the first.

    I would like to submit to you that given the 2nd definition the atheistic hypothesis precludes the existence of morality, because no two human beings will have sufficiently similar enough initial conditions before entering onto a specific decision as to make it reasonable to guarantee that if they are rational they will make the same choice.

    Holding or not holding the atheistic hypothesis to be true of coarse in no way effects a persons ability to perceive the existence of second definition, however I would hold that adhering to the atheistic hypothesis SHOULD result in one feeling entirely free to decide for themselves which ‘morality’ to embrace and failure to acknowledge the same freedom in another requires the assertion of definition 2 which is already denied.

    I hope now we are at least on the same page.

  • Guest Avatar
    Guest

    I came back surprised that this discussion was still going on but what has been discussed is quite interesting.  I would agree completely with Iwall on the fact that we should work with certain atheists on things that we do agree on such as social justice and the like.  For that matter we should work more closely with all who are willing.  This is a very important part of the ecumenical movement and most importantly offers the best way to lead by example and not by talking down to people.  Remember the wonderful quote, "Preach the gospel always, use words when necessary."

         The only thing to remember here is to not fall into the trap of thinking that we are more similar than we are.  Only on the most basic even moral ideals do we agree, and (as has been the majority of the discussion) even on that we don't agree on the reasons why. 

         It is important to state that atheists as Iwall points out are no more likely to be exceptionally evil than non-atheists.  I would argue however they are less likely to be exceptionally good either.  Because even though they may have morality it will always be of a limited type.  This is to say on all of the obviously wrong things (murder, genocide of the born, theft, etc) they will be in total agreement with us.  On more advanced moral issues they are however left (even among themselves) essentially to personal opinion.  But in the end the great majority of Catholic morality is purely logical and requires no mention of God to prove the validity of.

           The real difficulty for an atheist is not deciding what is moral and immoral, but deciding to actually be moral.  They have no role model (Christ), they have no communion of believers (saints) to keep them on the straight and narrow, and in the end they have no reason to do it (salvation).  Furthermore, since only fully rational positions can be taken they have difficulty being humble or truly altruistic which are both irrational.  Turning the other cheek (in pure rationalism) is akin to putting your hand back into a fire after being burned.  In their defense though very few Christians or Catholics (including myself) actually reach this level of Christian behaviour in which they would actually turn the other cheek or actually put the needs of others so far above their own that they suffer so others can be happy.

          So to sum up as I stated earlier atheists can be good people but they cannot be great people as there is no impulse to greatness.  Rationality will get you extremely close to being a truly great person and even possibly better than most Christians, but it fall flat on its face against the reality of the world and the reality of the need to be irrationally good to change the world. 

     

    God Bless 

  • Guest Avatar
    Guest

    To Stengel : A very thoughtful and balanced response. 

  • Guest Avatar
    Guest

    lwall,

    I'll admit I really struggle with your comments. 

    Furtermore, you can not rescue free will by arguing, plantively as you do, " But, if no free will, then no morality; and since we all know there is morality, thus there must be free will." 

    But I made no such argument.  Why are you arguing against a position I did not take?  What I said was I don't see consistency between a belief that the scientific method can explain everything and a belief in free will.  At your behest, I will extend it to say that a belief in scientific method as the sole way to explain everything is incompatible with a belief in choice as well, since choice too results in an unpredictable outcome. 

    You can only claim that morality presupposes God as a dogmatic assertion. 

    I didn't say this either.

    But I do feel that we hav a dearth of understanding of defintions:

    1. what is good?

    2. what does morality mean?

    3. what is moral?

    Can you provide some definitions of the above that Christians and atheists could agree upon?

  • Guest Avatar
    Guest

    To Stengel : A few afterthoughts. In opening paragraphs you mention that we differ from atheists in having different "reasons" for our otherwise

    [often] moral overlap. However this is a difference that makes no difference, especially to the soup kitchen. et.al. Importantly, it should make no difference to us in the public square. In fact, our adducing religious resaons in the public square is not only inappropriate but singularly inimical to the very cause we may be espousing. I have previously alluded to this. For a pretty good article on this see Social Hope by Richard Rorty, " Religion As a Conversation Stopper."  There is another more complex and quite problematic claim you make. You state that only Christians can be exceptionally good; that  enjoying only a limited morality that covers many "don'ts", they are nonetheless impoverished in the more advanced and positive moral agenda. You claim this is due to their being left to personal opinion.

    But I think this is quite incorrect. We should have to trace current models of how moral learning is aquired which I can not do just now. I refer particulary to the work of Churchland. The upshot of current neurobiological models is that moral knowledge is community/socially acquired. It is learned, honed in the caldron of reinforcing as well as pruning concrete experience, and moral knowledge adjusts its perceptual vision of relevances to the ever changing and nuanced face of changing social condidtions and subsetd. Now the point is that atheists enjoy the benefit of community in the broad sense needed for the aqusistion and adjustment of moral knowledge. While any one may opt to be a solipsist -Chrsitian or otherwise – having extricated him/herself from the required mileu for moral knowledge acquisistion such a person would thereby not [by definition ]possess moral knowledge, loosely defined as a skill set applied to the social sphere in concert with that sphere's self conception of the good. In fact, moral growth – in the specific sense of one's capacity to concretely schematize a very broad range of moral relevancies "out there" -may be better capacitated by a more fluid and more responsive humanistic neuronal-synaptic set of moral knowledge than the bulkk of most Christians neurional sets who have been deceived into envisaging moral knowledge as a rather static relationship betweem the self and a set of rather calcified fixed rules and precepts to which one must adhere. Churchland et. al have pretty convincingly shown – by nerurobilogical computational brain models – just how problematic and morally obtunding this is, that is to say, quite morally deficient. We Chrsitians must learn how to de-calcify our entire program of moral teaching in the Church, where de-calcify does not mean "waterdown" or "compromise" but rather the actual overhauling of moral education in toto, in keeping with the latest science on moral knowledge acquistion. Atheists have this very significant advantage at present. Besides, pertaining to your claim that atheists are deficient and incapable of the moral hero/heroine I respond, so be it. However, given our current pathetic state of Cathoilic moral education and progress, I just might trade one saint- in- progress for a more ubiquitous, grassroots "pew-population" of truly morally educated Catholics -in progress – in the new sense of Christian moral education I am suggesting. 

     

     

     

       

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     and thus make more fluid and hence

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     interdigitate with

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    relationship.  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++etc,etc.++++33333333to3

    to.33333 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    unity

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    programs.

    disadvantaged in this regard because

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    vision

  • Guest Avatar
    Guest

    moral knowledge I believe falls into two catagories.

    the first is deduced or evidential moral knowledge. 

    This is the type of moral knowledge an atheist might approach  by having faith in the principle of natural law. 

     However, the second far superior moral knowledge is 'infused' moral knowledge.  It is a result of having a direct relationship with a supernatural being known to Christians as 'God' .  God guides a person by a combination of feelings and events which sever to communicate information the both the conscious and unconscious mind , which would otherwise be entirely out of it's grasp.  For the purpose of leading a person to a  conclusion that a given action is what he wants them to take.  The reason this knowledge is far superior is because it origin is not within the human person but within the divine.  A human person cannot gather enough evidence to account for many of the otherwise unintended effects of their actions.   However by listening to God, discering his will and allow oneself to be guided by the holy spirit.  A persons actions are now guided by a being who can and does take EVERY possibility and all information into account before asking the person to take an action.

     

    This explains the difference between knowledge and wisdom.

     

     

  • Guest Avatar
    Guest

    I really struggle with the idea of seperating the coporal acts of Mercy from the spirtital ones.

     

    I agree am torn on the idea of coporation with athiest in doing charity work honestly.

     

    For instance recently a bishop out on the east coast was insistant that alanis morriset should not be performing at a cathlic charity event because of her well known stance on abortion.

     

    Further I think, as pope benidict pointed out in his recent book, if you lose sight of the fact that 'man does not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the moth of God.'  and concentrate solely on provinding bread.

    you have failed to do them any favors and fallen for the temptation the devil laid for christ in the Gosphel.

    Consider as a good example Mother Theresa.  She did not insist that the people she helped were christian , however they all knew she was.  She also offered baptism to many of them as they died.  I think there is a balance between being pushy and being present.  But I also think that more is spoken in the silent presense of a person, if they are holy, then volumes that they might speak with thier mouth.

     

    I think we should co-operate when we can with whomever is willing to help , out of love for others, including the people we are co-operating with , but we should never lose sight of the fact that the reason we are helping is to promote the kingdom of God and a relationship with christ.

    Others may have very different goals. 

    This is why the citics of mother theresa just couldn't understand that she had very little intrest in helping people be less poor.  That wasn't her goal.

     

     

     

  • Guest Avatar
    Guest

    To Fishman: I see u want to continue this subject. Being a teacher, I respect your persistence. I may be mistaken. However judging from your previous two posts it appears that you have done some little amount of reading. Good. Let me offer to you an article "If It Feels Good To be Moral It May Be Natural." Go to website "Washingtonpost". Search "morality and brain" or just enter the acticle's title above. I refer you there so you can begin to familiarize yourself with what's going on – at a rapidfire pace – in the allied fields of the new disciplines of nerocomputational biology and neurophilosophy. I expect these fields to dominate moral philosophy on many fronts in the near future. This is becoming a field of keen interest for me as part of my overarching interest in the field of "ethical anti-theory." You, who thus far have been a dogmatic skeptic viz. an atheists' capacity to be good and/or moral – should learn from this little lay review that the very concepts of good and moral as well as their co-ordinated moral behaviors, moral reasoning patterns, and our basic beliefs of good and moral have socio-biologistically evolved over eons of pre-theistic consciousnes and have become encoded synaptically in the human brain as a function of species survival and flourishing. Thus, and once again directly contrary to Mark Shea's thesis, there is absolutely no irrationality nor incoherence when claiming that atheists are capable of being moral and good without belief in nor reference to God.  In fact the converse would appear to be true. Now I believe this new field opens up a tremendous opportunity for us finally to usurp the empirical neurocomputational/biologistoc models in order to argue ( at some later point of a considered, coherent, and persusive development of the thesis) that the Holy Spirit functions so as to neo-write, neo-prototype, and even over-write and modulate this "given" natural hard-wired synaptic moral self. I wonder whether such an alleged re-writing by the Holy Spirit ( this re-writing of course must be intended to encompass many modes of alteration of intact human nerocircuitry) could be experimentally studied via PET and MRI scans et.al),for example, by actually demonstrating that a correct reading ( where correct must be specified to include the spiritual sense of reading. See article by Mary Healy in Letter and Spirit, vol.2, 2006) and on-going study of Scripture. If so, and I believe this is experimentally possible, it would allow us a powerfully new force of persuasion, and would grant us a new credibility in the face of current skeptics and detractors of the faith. It would also allow us to stop making stupid and ignorant assertions! Note that your Sat 16, 7:33am post alludes to this very process – i.e. that "listenting " to the ( supernatural voice /word) is efficacious in re-writing our synaptic selves. ( Not your words but your meaning  ). You also allude to a re-writing that would go beyond or stretch as you phrase it "out of its [ human beings] grasp", that is, an other-than merely human, socio-biological/ evolutional/naturalistic capacity. This particular claim of "beyond", if verifiable by neurocomputaional models, would be a salutary "victory" for the faith indeed. But we must pause at length here to ask, What is required to show that any new circuitry laid down by Scripture is indeed "beyond" naturalistic origins? That it could not have originated in the species. As a starter, we might argue that the occurrence of certain "values" ( a variegated term) communicated in the New Testament do not, in fact and quite contrary to the evolutionist theory of a natural, socilo-biologictic origin of moral knowledge, recurrently appear in the collected moral knowledge of the species. Thus, these N.T. values are not ubiquitous amongst the human species as would be required to support any skeptical claim that Scriptural moral knowledge – pertaining to its genesis and font – reduces to the same evolutionary processes as the large body of hard-wired natural moral knowledge. Enough for now. Fishman, keep reading and processing as I think and hope you are. And try not to shoot too much from the hip.       

  • Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Your theory is interesting and at least now I understand why you are so persistent on insisting to use the first definition from the dictionary for morality , when Christian's insist that the second is more proper to be considered at all times.

     

    However I suspect your faith in the scientific community is significantly stronger then mine.

     

    Consider for instance the fact that those people putting forth various versions of guided evolution or intelligent design  theory.  These theorist, while well educated, fairly credible and puting forward some very interesting arguments, are largely ignored and regarded as crack pots by many of their colleges who simply insist it is unscientific to mix religion and God.  No matter how many 'weaknesses' their are in current theory that can be explained by nothing other then intelligent intervention most scientist simply take it on faith that the weakness will be accounted for as we gather more knowledge.  

     

    However , i don't want to disparage you in your line of research,  there has actually been some interesting conversions in the physics communities specifically because  of intelligent design theory.  I'd love to see that start happening in the phycholgy as well.

  • Guest Avatar
    Guest

    To Fishman: My previous post had nothing to do with intelligent design! Did you read the article? Did you look up te works of Churchland and other neurobiologists? Here u go a hip shootin' again.

  • Guest Avatar
    Guest

    skeptics and detractors of the faith"  and my point was rather independent of the merit for the research.

    I don't think the skeptics and detractors of the faith, for the most part will be impressed by any evidence no matter how convincing, because they generally lose interest in real science as soon as it stops supporting their world view.

    Consider Stephen Hawkins’s support of the multi-universe theory, which, as I understand it form a laymen’s perspective is basically a theory out of quantum physics which was dismissed some time ago, for lack of evidence. It does have the ‘advantage’ of being almost impossible to prove or disprove. It was revived by Hawkins’s however because the evidence for creation has become almost insurmountable in the realm of physics/cosmology.

    There are a number of universal constants, which to the best of our knowledge could have random values.  If any one of them was off by in the 10th of a decimal place there would be no one here to observe that they were off because life would not exist.  With the implication that without intelligent intervention the existence of life in the universe has vanishingly small odds, thus making intelligent intervention seems to be at least highly likely from a scientific standpoint, given the current data.

    Hawkins’s solution is that obviously ( because there can’t be a God) it must be the case that every possible universe is actually in existence at this moment in such a way that we just happen to be in one that actually supports life.  ( it’s even worse then it seems at first , because this is every possible universe at the quantum level, so a new universe is created every time a quantum particle makes a ‘decision’ which happens literally billions of times a second.)

     

    No amount of science, no matter how rock solid, will convince the skeptics that there is a god.  It may however sway some of the undecided scientists out there. 

     

    In reality , just as there is infused knowledge because of such infused morality, there is also infused ‘anti-morality’ , people choose to listen either God or the Devil .  That is what St. Paul meant when he wrote “it (the battle) is not between flesh and blood but powers and principalities”.

     

    You will have very little success in convincing those who are of the world to listen to God with things of the world.  “If they are unwilling to listen to Moses and the prophets they would not be convinced even if someone were to come back from the dead”. 

    They have not been have they?

     

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    I did read the article you suggested.  Actually when I read it I realized I read it before about 6 months ago, but I gave it another go so it was fresh in my mind.

    The interesting thing is that it supports the point I've been trying to make that you have opposed. 

    "It is comforting to think your moral intuitions are reliable and you can trust them. But if my analysis is right, your intuitions are not trustworthy. Once you realize why you have the intuitions you have, it puts a burden on you" to think about morality differently.

    So what criteria should we use then? “Obviously” logical ones that are superior to our ‘instincts’ which are, after all, a product of blind evolution.

    Look how the article ends:

    “Hauser said the only difference is that the second scenario is more emotionally charged — and therefore feels like a different moral problem, when it really is not: "In the end, the doctor's intent is to reduce suffering, and that is as true in active as in passive euthanasia, and either way the patient is dead."”

    This is exactly same line of reasoning that can be used to justify what Hitler did.

    I can just hear the conversation now between the ‘scientist’ and the soldier.

    ‘Well, you may find wiping out a whole race distasteful, but that is merely an evolutionary response and it is not to anyone’s greatest advantage.  If you really evaluate it clear mindedly you will find that a rational man would overcome his emotions and not allow blind forces to control him in doing what is truly to the greatest advantage of everyone involved.  After all the Jew’s are a dirty disadvantage Mud race and the sooner they are prevented from spreading their poor genetics into the rest of the populace the sooner the master race and thus the whole world, will move towards greater prosperity. We need to help evolution, because modern technology has interfered with the natural process for too long.’

    — infused anti-morality my friend.

    The discussion thus far has been very interesting, but you never did answer my question.

    Starting from the atheistic hypothesis explain why Hitler should not have done what he did?

    Of coarse the article could be used to make an interesting argument that anyone who does not believe in God is mentally ill and should be hospitalized 😉 ( that’s is a joke:)

     

     

     

     

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    To Fishman: When I asked u to read the article I guess I should have reminded you to interpret it correctly! The article categorically refutes all of what you claim. Let's review what the article claims: (1) Morality is hard-wired in the human being ( and same vector- processing of neuronal structure exists in all terrestrial vetebrates according to the latest research in the field). That is,morality is structurally instantiated by neuro-computational, parallel processing prototype circuitry and modulaterd biologistically especially as pertains to its most basic moral computational neuronal framework. The article's claim flatly refutes any notion of "infused" morality. In fact,the concept "infused" fails all and any attempts at demonstration or verification. How would you go about proving that a given moral value you or anyone possesses was "infused" or simply acquired socailly? (2). Many traditionally revered  instances of so-called morality ,such as altruism, ( see the arfrticle) are  now known to be intrinsic to the brain's hardwire and do not function as previously claimed,namely, as the human being saying "No " to his own safety, for example, for the sake of risking the safety of an unknown other. It is a hard-wired Yes all the way down. (3). Your reference to the quote about how we must not trust our moral intuitions – used mistakenly by you to support your ludicrous "infusion" claim – simply argues that some earlier acquired human moral beliefs and their accompanying executional motor skills,that is, some aspects of  our moral knowledge acquired very early in our moral evolutioniost/social history which now seems "intuitive" may no longer suit as our best moral response since we are no longer dwelling in caves and jungles where human and animal threats are a constant. It argues rather for our more reflective and nuanced engagement with the socially conditioned, learned, and thick resevoir of one's generally good, much more moral, and much more plurally sensitive culture today. I trust these points help to get you back on the rails of this article. Hitler? Easy! A lack of learning of his culture's social-moral skills undoubtedly stemminmg from a host of contingent deprivations and possibly from biological conditions as well. Your turn now: explain the 'bad Popes" and the breadth of a horrid Chrisitian legacy, which I asssume you would agree, should never have happened since these Christians were filled with "infused morality' on your own account. Oh, you will probably wiggle out by saying that the infused moral knowledge was "in them". But their sin and abuse of it were at fault.

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    The claim I was suggesting that the article supports is that from the perspective of the atheistic hypothesis Hitler’s actions were nothing more then an interesting adaptation to his social-moral climate and if he had been successful in his military campaign could easily have been viewed as a successful evolutionary advance.  The elimination of some other races and the deaths of millions being a inconsequential side effect of his adaptation. An atheist has no right to say Hitler should not have done what he did other then to note that his adaptation failed to secure it's intent.

     

    This is enterely a seperate issue from 'infused knowledge' or 'infused morality'.

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    I have not tried to use this article or any other as proof for the concept of 'infused morality'.  I hold that such a proof is likely impossible. From a compu-biological perspective such infusion would, probably, get lost in the chaotic nature of the brain and appear as 'randomness' or the brain talking to itself.  I had not noted any attempt to refute the idea of 'infused morality' on your part up to this point in time. So my didactic thus far had not significantly addressed the idea.

    As far as ‘infused morality’ goes it is actually very easy to sustain it’s existence from the perspective of Christian moral philosophy given two assumptions necessary for a person to be Christian at all.

    1)     God is a real person

    2)     God communicates regularly with human beings

    From that perspective it should be obvious that anyone who listens to God has far superior moral knowledge because they are guided by an omniscient being who directs their actions. 

     

    The explanation for ‘bad popes’ and the evils of Christendom of coarse is very simple:

    Not everyone listens to God and in fact many people choose to listen to the devil.

    Also, I think very few people listen perfectly to God and most people vacillate in what they choose, out of a combination of human weakness and a damaged nature itself, commonly referred to as the effects of ‘original sin’.

     The bible puts it this way.  ‘The sinner sins 1000 times a day the righteous man 50 times a day’. More over the message of the Gospel is insistent that if we ‘put on the mind of Christ’ we can be transformed into a ‘new creation’.  That through the miraculous power of God it is possible actually do good, something far beyond normal human capacity.  We are promised God is there to help us accomplish this transformation if we will it.  That is the ‘good news’ , that God is real, that God is good, that God is Love and wills us to succeed in not sinning ( a superhuman task). Do you really think any of the saints got where they did through human effort? No they were shown the way by the only being who truly knows it.  God himself , in the person of Jesus the Christ.   

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    Fishman: Bad Popes, horrid Christian historical legacy, and Hitler. All are cases of learning disabilities. Hitler is not an " interesting adaptation" but a tragic and horrific instance gross of mal-adaptation and learning disability. Of course atheists have a "right". What "right"  need  be granted in order to regard all of the above cases as morally reprehensible, deserving of the nth punishment, utterly dispicable….other than membership in the human race! You are exhibiting unenlightened chauvinism once again, a piece with your claim that only "believers" have the moral capacity or the "right" to judge affairs. If atheists decry Hitler in the terms above,what is added to these terms of disapproval by the further qualifier, " Yeah!! And a sinner too!" ? The vast resevoir of good and bad had been neurally constructed long before belief in God appeared. That's what gives atheists the "right." Besides, what about  all the thousands of Chrisitians in Germany who followed Uncle Adolf including the  German "Nazi" Church. Where was their belief in God; where was their halo of "infused morality". Which reminds me : you have the annoying habit of dodging the questions I pose to you, why is that?

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    which question did I dodge?

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    You dodged the question of infused morality by sublimating it to belief in a God who communicates with humans, which argument, once again, is circular : it reduces to your saying "There is infused morality because God infuses it as a person who communicates." If that is your explanation, I suggest you do the only intellectually honest thing which is to recant! You glossed the Christian legacy question as I thought you would , saying " Folks just aren't perfect disciples or listeners."

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    what makes a mal-adaptation horrific? Isn't the only difference between a mal-adaptation and any other adaptation weather or not it enhanced survival?You continue to reject my point about atheism , but have yet to produce a single piece of contrary evidence. To answer your latest question:"What "right" need  be granted in order to regard all of the above cases as morally reprehensible," Morality is a code of conduct that any rational person would follow in a given situation.  In order to have a 'right' to declare something morally reprehensible you must first define what is and is not rational in a given situation so that you may then define what is and is not moral.  Otherwise you have no 'right' to do so because you violate the definition of the words you are using.From the atheistic perspective 'rational' is only an illusion it is an evolutionary adaptation driven by blind and chaotic forces.  Had the forces been different what is 'moral' or even 'rational' would also be different and so much as those forces are different for different individuals what is 'rational' for one person may not be 'rational' for the next.  Thus atheists have no 'right' to insist something is moral because their initial hypothesis and world view violates the definition of what hey insist upon being true thus collapsing into shattering contradiction of terms.The only criteria under which any adaptation can thus be measured from an atheistic standpoint is weather or not it was successful in procuring the goal of the actor.  The only reason Hitler is mal-adapted, under the atheistic model is that he did not win the war. Hand he won the war and propagated his ideology he would have had a successful adoption according to the rules of natural selection regardless of the emotional reaction of other people who might feel what he did was ‘horrific’.

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    It appears I was unclear in answering your question. I had not intention of dodging it.

    Let me define this term that until now I have used somewhat casually.

    I have already defined more then once morality.

    Let me now define 'infused' — To put into or introduce as if by pouring.

    so infusing is something that comes from the outside. More over I have already indicated that the mechanism in place is a kind of active listening.

    So it follows that anyone who is not actively listening will lack any infused knowledge of morality or otherwise.

    So I did not mean to dodge your question about bad popes, but simply don't understand how it relates to the term.

    The fact that 10 people may have higher , lower and no degree of infused knowledge should be of no more shock to anyone then that 10 students in a lecture hall have higher lower or no degree of understanding for the material presented by the instructor as depends on there ability and willingness to listen to the material presented.

    Your question seems to be kind like asking. So why did those guys who didn't attend the lecture not know what was going to be on the test?

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    lwall,

     First off, let me say that I agree with what you are saying.  Part of the instinctual nature of humans and others is to protect ourselves.  Through environmental learning, we can recognize that being nice to others can in turn protect ourselves.

     Further, I suspect that the same brain patterns seen describing "morality" could be applied to "good manners" or even "style".  But I think this would be more of a description of what is "culturally appropriate", thinly disguised as morality.

    Further, I would not object to any claims that most people, including Christians and Atheists, probably view morality through this fuzzy environmentally infused lens.  Most people could not articulate clearly why something is moral anymore than they could articulate why some things are "bad manners".  Yet all of this can lead people to do generally moral things and occasionally horendous things.  Of course this brand of morality is precisely the kind of morality Cardinal Ratzinger warned against prior to is papacy.

    None of this is the morality that Christians are called to live by.  Nor is Christian morality merely a set of arbitrary rules.  Christian morality can be arrive through reason when applying the belief that God is love and we are called to conform our lives to Him.  All Christian morality and rules is therefore merely attempting to determine which actions are in conformity with God's life-giving, self-giving love.

    The saints and martyrs are witnesses of people who have lived (and died) by this code of conduct (and beliefs) and have been persecuted precisely because they were going against the grain of society.

    Now I know you are going to argue that either:

    1. This is rooted in a belief in God, and yes it is.  But it could also be rooted in a belief that morality is based on agape love.  In any case, all rational logic must start with one or more premises, so a belief in God as a premise is hardly a disadvantage.

    2. The saints are also conditioned by the environment of the Church.  This may be true, although saints such as Teresa of Avila and John of the Cross acted the way they did in spite of the sins around them in the church.

     

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    Fishman and Anyone : (1). Again, Fishman, if there is no way to separate what beliefs are infused and which are learned, then you must recant your claim to "infused moraity." The notion and your belief in it literally now become non-sense. Since you can proffer credible way to discern infused beliefs from non-infused , thus you have demolished your own right to continue holding to  "infused belief." Your feeble attempt to say "infused" just means "coming from outside" fails because  every synaptically encoded moral belief comes from the outside, beliefs allegedly infused as well as beliefs acquired from social learning all come from outside!  Upon these points, all current neurobiologists and neurophilosophers agree. And their conclusion is empirical and experimentally reproducible and verifiable as oppossed to your piece of dogmatic romanticism. (2) My point about bad Popes and the horrid leagcy of Christianity escapes you? Wow! I am shocked. Simply, Fishman, if belief in God and the supposed salutary  effects that His infused moral virtues engender in the human being, then we should be able to discern a statisitically significant difference in the moral beliefs and motor skills between the haves and the have nots; the atheists/ humanists versus Christians. But there is no such difference except for Christian narrowness, crimes against humanity for His sake, and gross hypocricy across the ages. Certainly, the moral-historical legacy of any given belief system witnesses to its "truth claims", thus the horrid legacy of C. speaks to its falsity or else to other conditions relating to its [ inadequate] teaching and formation of its adherents.(4). Your invoking "listeneng" in an attempt to rescue "infused" fails . All moral knowledge, moral relevance valencing, contextual nuancing progress – all of this is a complex form of listeneing/learning either from books, Scriptures, life's lessons, socialization, exemplary prototype human models. Morality has very little use of so-called rational moral theory. This too is conclusively shown and is demonstable in human brains as revealed with neurocomputatiional models,MRI  and PET scan experiments…so its all listening,adjustment/adaptations…. all the way down. No infusion. No neuronally isolated "rational system" that consitites your own and anyone one elses moral knowledge synapses. This biological, socially contexted and exquisitely socially sensitive genertaion, utilization, and adaptation, including s loss and/or augmentation, is an amazing neuronal computational process.  Further, it is all there is to morality. This neronal process is ubiquitous in the human and in all terrestrial vertebrates. Yes, we see incipient and expressed morality in higher vertebrates becausr they possess the same neuronal processes.We are its highest most complex instance ,primarily because of our language capacity and because of our greater number and complexity of recuurent as oppossed to recursive parallel processing. (5). Morality is absolutely NOT a code of conduct nor is morality perpicuously or fundamentally rational. The results of recent and on-going verification experiments from computer neurocomputational models as well as the study of discrete human brain lesions by D'Amasio and others confirm that even so called rational beliefs -including picking out the conditions for deployment and how one deploys them etc.- are a function of a host of complex synaptic circuit simultaneity. Now Fishman it is non-sense to hold on to an completely outmoded and false "faculty model" of brain cognitive function, namely " Okay, let's see here…we have reason, we have will, we have free will,we have intelligence, we have sensory areas, we have imagination.." Gone, Fishman, gone!! Poof!  The current science is destructive of the very  groudwork upon which most of your dogmatic and attenuated moral view rests. Besides, the right to judge good and bad has very little to do with holding to infused moral values nor rational thinking especially of the sort you envisage. We do not function as moral creatues by a rational deduction particular maxims from universal principles. Rather, morality clearly exhibits a functionalist view of brain states and not a discursive one.

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    Gary T : How to do you uphold or distinguish "culturally appropriate" from "moral" as your opening sentence assumes. "Cuturally appropriate" when the term refers to the settled yet somewhat fluid beliefs and behaviors which prove to be in conformity with, egendered by, and approved by a long cultural narative tradition and its social contexts; and also having had the necessary time to test them out, so to speak, adjust, and refine them as well as enshrine them in its educational and juridical institutions is all there is to morality! And, yes, morality may generate horrendous things. However, the rather fixed and hard- wired cognitive synaptic framework of the human brain across time and cultures mostly guaranteess a raeatively homogeneous and constant set of moral knowledge in the race. There will of couse be abberations and inter-cultural diffrences. Horrid things happen when cultures cease listening to and adjusting to the large resevoir of social listening, stop listening to the human race as with the examples of bad Popes, the horrid Christian historical legacy including good ole Christian Germany and its treatment of the Jews, as well as many other historical instances of bad cultures having become bad because having tuned out the voices of the larger world, having become isolated from a corrective human dialogue that would have adjusted them; under the aegis of One Grand Idea or One Savior/Dictator. Communism. North Korea. As to your closing remarks re: rational undergirdings….belief in God is NOT a rational starting premise. Belief in the Incarnation, Eucharist, Resurection, revelation etc. are NOT rational premises. They are beliefs. I see them as important beliefs of a sui generis kind. But rational they are not, thus you can not even begin to go down the rational road of argument as you want to do because your premises are not rational. But if your premises are accepted, then…

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    from lwall – "Morality is absolutely NOT a code of conduct nor is morality perspicuously or fundamentally rational"

    In other words lwall:

      The definition you are giving to the word morality is not the one used in the article or in normal conversation or in any of the augments I have made. This is exactly the reason there has been no resolution to the discussion, because we are not talking about the same noun.I have tried to point this out as I suspected it was the case several times and am glad to see you finally confirm it yourself although buried in a great deal of other verbiage. You might as well define a fish is a quadapedal mammal of genus Canis and then take exception when someone states fish can breath in water.What you have done is to redefine morality in a way that is opposed to it's definition in philosophical and standard dictionaries as well as common usage and then take exception when someone uses the noun with it's normal meaning.May I suggest that you would be better served by introducing the word ethic, which can be defined as 'a set of rules used to determine ones actions'. 

    Then by using the normal definitions of the words it is completely reasonable to state what I think you really mean to say anyway which is that atheism does not preclude the existence of an ethic.  I’d even go further and suggest that atheism requires the existence of some kind of ethic because it presupposes that man is entirely governed by the physical laws so his behavior should fall into categories that can be derived as a factor of those same laws.

    It does however remain true that atheism, while not precluding the existence of an ethic, most certain does preclude the existence of morality because the existence of morality presupposes the idea that man is capable of choosing rationally.

    If it is true that man is not capable of choosing rational it is equally true that man is not capable of acting morally as is accorded by the normal definition of the word.

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    I'd also like to point out that the exception that Diest usually take with athiest that they have no 'right' to repeatedly insist that others follower thier ethic is completely justified by your definition.  If an ethic/morality is NOT a rationl process it is completly moronic to try to insist or change someone elses ethic/ morality through the use of 'reason'.

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    Now, as pretians to my suggestions about the existance of infused morality what I said was that I would be very suprised if you could physically document or it's existance with the use of scientific intrumentation.  My reasons for this are much the same as why you cannot know both the vilocity and direction of an electron.  Your ability to understand intial conditions would make the possible of observing it's occurance impossible because of the mathmatical Choas.  I did not suggest it was impossible to verfy the existance of such a phenomina by observing historical events.

    A simple case in point from catholic theology is the declaration that Mary the mother of Jesus was sinless.

    to be sinless one must never oppose the will of God.

    It was God's will that Jesus the christ be crucified.

    So it is nessary that Mary the mother of Jesus also actively willed he be crucified as did God.   

     It is not possible that Mary overcame her maternal instinct for protection of her offspring from her physio-historical context so if she actively willed the crucifixtion  it could only be because she had knowledge that came to her from an extra-physical source.  From 'outside' physical reality.  This incidently is the kind of 'outside' that I mean.  supernatural knowledge which leads to conduct not based on observable physical reality or reaonably conditioned form previous life expierences.

     

     

     

     

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    I also feel I should point out:

    Given lwall's definition of morality the statement:

    'athiesm precludes morality' as asserted in the article is absolutley FALSE.

    Of coarse as I've already pointed out this akin to agreeing that given the definition that a fish is a mamal of the genus Canis fish cannot breath underwater.

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    Fishman: I quit. There is no point. You BADLY need to read and take some classes. Basiacally, you have no clue what your are talking about I am sorry to say. And please, these aren't my definitions ( you continually refer to "your definition." ) I am describing the conclusions of the most up to date science/philosophy of the day especially the work of Churchland. It is a true pity you are unable to comprehend what any of this means. Try buying and reading the book Neurophilosophy At Work by Paul Churchland for starters. Then a bunch of courses at a nearby college department of philosophy.

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    lwall wrote:

    belief in God is NOT a rational starting premise. Belief in the Incarnation, Eucharist, Resurection, revelation etc. are NOT rational premises.

     

    I agree these are beliefs, not rational premises.  Nor did I attempt to claim otherwise.  However, I would also assert that the belief "there is no God" is also not a rational premise, since it too cannot be definitively proved.  So we are all stuck with stating beliefs as a starting point.

     

    lwall, I'm not all together certain I followed everything in your post, as I think you had 1-2 typos that made it a little unclear exactly what you were getting at.  The point I was trying to make is that morality as we are called to believe as Christians lies in the belief that we are to conform our lives to God – that is to love.  From there, we can make rational decisions as to what actions are in conformity to that principle.  In some cases, the exact choice may be unclear and yes time-testing will yield greater clarity.

    I realize that this definition of morality does not jive quite exactly with how you defined it.  But it is how our faith defines it.  And it can and should lead us to do greater things than the world's morality may lead us.

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    To Gary: Understand that the reason I took this circuitous route of ten posts ? was to educate readers to the currecnt non-theistic views of morality -its acquisiton, its learned socio-biologicsal essense,  its now scientific philosophical workings shown by experiements in neuro anantomy and physiology of the brain based on current computer models. Any intelligent Christian should know these for it is here where the opponents of all we believe hang their hats! How else can we be intelligent listeners amd witnesses. We can do neither if we simply heap charges of incoherent, irrational, incapable of the good, and immoral. They – atheists- are none of these as if a monolithic entity. For the last time, atheism is not a program itself. It is fundamentally a denial. Besides, the topic of atheism started by Shea had brought out so very, very, much ignorance on this post, including that of Shea himself. There needed to be much correction. I have not yet describe just how all the new neurophilosophy can be beneficially used by us in improving upon Catholic education and our on-going sanctification. It also affords the Church a sorely neeeded theory of inspiration at large. Great openings here. On last thing : our faith does not, thank God,restrict morality to the rational following of precepts although it has mightlily tried to do so and with awful results!  First, there is no such thing in the human being as a rational following of principles because our rational synaptic selves are inextricably intwined with other emotional, imaginative, relevance-weighting, and motor skills conforming to that circuitry, all of which is variably turned -on at any given time and is mallable as to the richness of this interconnectedness …. 

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    lwall – to some extent you seem to have missed my point about definitions. 

     

    My reason for distinglishing 'your' definition was to to refute it as 'a' definition used by some group or even the majority of philosophers.

    'your' definition however is not the one used by the majority of the people you are talking to ( or even the majority of people you would encounter if you talke to random people on the street).

     

    The mistake that you made is not unlike if I were to walk into a room and several people in the room were telling me about the problems they were having with there computers.  Specifically they were talking about the flicker in thier monitors and the dirt that kept collecting in thier keyboards.  They would be confused and communication hampered if I were to without qualification and very good reason insist that they were not having problems with thier computers but with thier periphrials and not bother to explian the difference ( and the nessity for the being a difference) between what they meant by computer and what I meant by computer.

     

    computer – a device composed of a central processing unit(CPU) , arthimitic logic unit ( ALU) and operational memory.

     peripherial any device that attaches to a computer – monitor, printer, mouse, keyboard , hard drive etc.

     

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    customarily a profession first begins ( when defining terms for a discussing) by explaining was it is nessary to redefine the term.

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