Catholic Exchange

Setting the Record Straight on Mary

The new movie that debuted on December 1st, The Nativity Story, has received many positive reviews around the country already and also a fair number of attacks by the standard group of village atheists.

Criticisms notwithstanding, the movie certainly has many redeeming qualities to it including its portrayal of Joseph and the touching scene of Mary's visit to Elizabeth, but at the same time I feel it necessary to correct the record about its presentation of Mary. More to the point, twenty centuries of theological reflection on the Virgin Mary have been effectively glossed over in the movie, and we have been given someone's private interpretation of Mary's role in salvation history which does not match the public record of historical Christianity. The Catholic Church has made it clear from the beginning that we do not understand Jesus as a historical and theological figure without Mary, and so a Nativity story that gets Mary wrong also skews our understanding of Jesus.

First and foremost, any portrayal of Mary as giving birth in pain is simply contrary to the Christian Church's long tradition of Mary as virginal before, during and after birth. In this view, her intact physical integrity during birth was accompanied by a psychic integrity that admitted of no pains during childbirth in any form. That may be a surprise to some, but it is nonetheless the historical Christian view of this event. The movie's portrayal of her childbirth is thus not the Church's mainstream understanding and qualifies as a strictly private interpretation of the event. In fact, the movie had a chance to contrast the painful childbirth of John the Baptist to Elizabeth with the miraculous birth of Jesus to Mary, and it missed the perfect opportunity to provoke a good theological debate!

 Biblical Christians should know that there is a Scriptural reason for this doctrine. The virtually unanimous opinion of the Fathers of the Church in the first six centuries was that Mary is the "New Eve," the necessary counterpart to Christ, the New Adam (cf. Rom 5:12-14). Just as the old Eve collaborated in the sin of Adam, so the New Eve, with the New Adam, reverses the original disobedience and undoes the curse brought upon the human race by the first sinners. That same curse also brought about the grim consequence of labor pains for all of Eve's daughters (cf. Gn 3:16), but the New Eve who broke the curse was not subject to its dictates.

Secondly, Mary was not an immature adolescent as she is portrayed in the movie. The director of the movie, Catherine Hardwicke, intended to portray her as such in order to make her more "real" to teens. That is fine as an evangelistic motive, but depicting her in a quasi-feminist tizzy against her father's authority when he addresses the delicate subject of pre-marital relations is simply inaccurate to the historical record and doesn't help kids to take her as a role model.

The immaculate Mary's passions were first and foremost totally consecrated to the Lord and without the slightest disorder in any sense; she is not your typical teen in western society. She is the teen Mother of the Messiah, the perfect role model for all kids and adults alike. Not only would it not have entered the mind of the all-pure Mary to have pre-marital relations, she could not have had a fit of rebellion against her father's legitimate authority that concretized God's will for her. This presentation of Mary is quintessentially Hollywood and reflects neither historical Christianity nor even the biblical evidence. It is also a reflection of the Protestant view that Mary is just another person who happened to follow Jesus.

No, Mary is the Mother of God, perfectly pure in every respect and, even as a teenager dedicated heart, mind, soul and strength to God's plan of salvation. "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me as you say" (Lk 1:38).  Let the historical record speak for itself.

Comments

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    I agree with Fr. Tom’s observation. We should not portray Mary as having the “typical behavior” as that of teenagers. These teenage behaviors may be what we observe in our young but these are not behaviors that correspond to what is true and beautiful. Mary lived what was true and beautiful. And this is why the Holy Spirit dwelt in her. And this is why (in my opinion) at least on two occasions, Jesus took the cue from her as to what He ought to do without her even saying much. The first was when Jesus was twelve and was lost for three days. When Mary and Joseph found Him, Mary said, “Son, why have you done this to us. Your father and I have been looking for you.” Although Jesus said that He was about HIs Father’s business, and though Mary did not say anything after that, Jesus knew His time had not yet come. And so He went doen with them to Nazareth and became obedient to them. The second was the opposite. At the wedding at Cana, Mary said, “Son, they have no more wine.” Jesus said, “What is it to Me? My time has not yet come.” Mary simply said, “Do whatever He tells you.” Jesus knew His time had come. That is the beauty of Mary.

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    Thank you Father for your review. After exiting the theater on half-price night, I was glad for the savings as it reflected my opinion of the presentation. Half- describes my feelings of Scriptural correctness-we only hear half of Mary’s Magnificat-if that. We also are robbed, by at least by half, of the truth regarding her personage-and coupled with the secular interpretation of Mary’s humanness, we really are getting less than half of the truth and beauty found in Our Lady’s story.
    I am sorry I brought my family to this rendition and as a remedy, we viewed, for the hundredth time- Jesus of Nazereth-in which the portrayal of Mary is both beautiful and more accurate. Salve Regina!

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    I couldn’t agreee more with Father Euteneur. Seeing this movie was bittersweet for me. I appreicated any efforts by Hollyword to get out such an important message. Nativity so much “underdid” Mary I left the theater feeling a little down. But, at the same time, it did, I think, put Joseph in a more understood spotlight.

    In addition to Father’s comments, I would add one more thing that bothered me as much as the “natural childbirth.” When Mary was going to visit Elizabeth, she expressed a DOUBT, about Elizabeth really being pregnant. This was another MAJOR TEACHING MOMENT lost. Mary NEVER doubted ANYTHING that came from God. In fact, unlike Zachary, who DID doubt, (consequently was muted), Mary was shocked, certainly, but only in awe of HOW, being a Virgin, she COULD be the mother of the Jesus. Mary being our PERFECT model, shows us (although sadly not in this movie), to accept God’s word and have total trust that with God all things are possible.

    All in all, everything I’ve read and heard indicates to me that this moive was made with the best intentions. Perhaps had it been a Mel Gibson or totally Catholic production it would never have done as well as it has (from bias). Also, we must all be honest and admit how next to impossible it is to portray anything of supernatual significance. So for that, I say hats off to Hollywood for the effort, and trust that good Catholics will continue the deeper discussions about Mary among our protestant bothers and sisters. Nativity could well serve as a springboard for the deeper discussions and truths of our beautiful Mother . Last but not least, technically, the movie was simply beautiful!

    Patricia
    San Diego

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    Great job Father Euteneur! You certainly clear the muddle created by this movie. I can only say it is sad to have someone like Cardinal Bertone in the Vatican publicly giving this terrible movie a “thumbs up” for being “a good cinematical” production. Nothing can be good if it tears down truths and enters into the realm of half truths and lies. Our youth certainly don’t need to be confused more. I would think many CCd teachers are now fielding many of the questions that you have addressed. I plan to share this article with all the teachers I know.

    Susi Pittman
    Ocala, Florida

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    It should be noted that the issue of Mary’s pain during birth, while taught by the Church, is not dogmatically defined, thus the movie is not theologically wrong for choosing not to portray that aspect of pious tradition. There remains room for discussion and even disagreement on this matter.

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    It always bothered me over all these years when movies depicted the birth of Jesus with Our Lady crying out in childbirth. The Bible states quite plainly that painful childbirth came as punishment for original sin and we were always taught that Our Lady was conceived without sin and therefore would not have painful childbirth and was still a virgin after the birth. It was so nice to finally hear someone else (Father Euteneur) acknowledge this fact. Also, the fact that Mary is portrayed as a “typical teenager” does not set an example of pureness and total trust for our teenagers and others to follow. Why must we always bring that which is beautiful and exceptional down to a lower standard before we will even look at it or consider it? Modernism and relativism is when truth and untruth is portrayed together and eventhough there may be a lot of good in this movie, it is once again a mixing and muddying of the whole truth so that those who do not know much of their faith, will fall prey to that which is not truth.

    Marianne Keating
    No. Andover

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    None of us really knows exactly how things went when Mary gave birth to Jesus. None of us. I feel that when we let ourselves become so legalistic regarding the “details” of a MIRACLE, we lose sight and sense of what that miracle is supposed to do to/for us.
    Whether Mary was in pain or not really has nothing to do with the fact that she said YES to God and opened herself up to God’s will. Totally.
    Yes, as Catholics we have Doctrines and Dogmas that we must adhere to and abide by and I fully agree with doing so however letting ourselves get bogged down in the “particular’s” of a miraculous event that none of us can fully explain anyway is nonproductive.
    Jesus was born to the Virgin Mary! Keep it simple!!! Hallelujah!!!
    Merry Christmas to all!

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    Thank you for your article, Father. I heard the scuttlebut about the depiction of Mary, and so avoided the film. Now we need to get funding to produce the Catholic version.

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    As for the Church Fathers – and all this – I’d like some Lukean foundation for all this. Nowhere does Luke, the evangelist who clearly has Mary’s story as a main element, and just as clearly loved/loves Mary as he did/does his birth mother, give all this cosmic fashion to what is, indeed, childbirth. Mary’s own culminative Magnificat focus on all that Love has of love provided to her, and to all through her, is the doctrine that matters, anyway.

    The Church’s view is beautiful, gentle, kind and touchingly graced. It certainly has that for it. But, is it God become man? Her conception of heavenly King become simple man unto Savior necessitates the utter miracle of the Holy Spirt coming over her. Luke portrays this simply and caringly. But, as her Son would experience life that He could exemplify, I think that Mary took all of life, including her birth, as a natural course for her, to take life as it is, absent only sin. It could very well have included confrontation with expectably upset parents. That said, in the supernatural sense (heavenly-saved) that any of us can share, she is peerless, and Queen withal.

    As for the ‘feminist’ moment, feminist-like response to questioning parents – who while probably not true of Joachim and Ann, is true too often in every ethnic group, that sons very, very often suffer few such questions – is as old as families. More feminism than that moment begs explanation, but such confrontation would not seem untoward to the Lukean Gospel, who reflects no ‘understanding’ between Mary and her parents. Elizabeth knew, carrying the last prophet, another miraculous conception at a human level. Everybody ‘back home’, including Joseph, needed the dream message. Given the message, and without Lukean input but merely fatherly sensibilities, Joachim probably threw himself at his daughter’s feet and kissed them in his humble honor to the Christ-bearer – ‘God be praised! Our own baby!’ His gratitude would have been bottomless, to God, that his family in his very daughter should have the most important covenantal promise come true.

    I will note that Fr. Euteneuer never makes any statement that ‘this must be believed’, because we do not believe every jot and tittle of the words of our early Church Fathers, anyway. That –

    • Mary is our Mother,
    • the Immaculate Conception,
    • the Immaculate Heart,
    • our Lady in myriad aspects,
    • the Queen of Heaven,
    • messenger extraordinaire, and
    • the second-best human who ever walked this earth

    is vitally and totally clear in that, simply,

    Blessed Virgin Queen Mother Mary is the Mother of God

    .

    Natural birth pangs – ‘natural-anything’ except the unnatural commonness of sin – cannot obscure her greatness before all humans as God would have her.

    And, thus in Lukean power and message do I end my own ‘take’ on the this-and-that of virgin birth of God-made-man, however modernly expressed. (Yea, even of ladies who having been in childbirth would tender their Mother in Heaven the sparing of the agonies. No doubt, whether they are right or not, she is touched to the deepest parts of her Immaculate Heart, as is her Son to His Sacred Heart. Such tender passion will bode well before His judgment. As for yours-truly P.S., it may only mean that my heavenly Queen will visit me in Purgatory more often to clear thinngs up, eh? To be with her . . . to have of deepest compassion, consolation, comfort . . .)

    I remain your obedient servant, but God’s first,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @mail.catholicexchange.com or …yahoo.com)

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    From Vidiana

    I neither agree or disagree with the”Padre”, but I would like to say a few things about how cold his article left me. I don’t know what his real motive in writing this, but what comes across is the arrogant intellectualizings and dogmatic rantings of someone who just wants to make himself heard and brag that he knows his theology and make the rest of us feel inferior.. That has been the problem with the hierarchy in the past: too much patriarchal intellectualizing about dogma and not enough emphasis on the human, feeling side of spirituality.

    I think he gets dogma and tradition mixed us. Yes, it is a dogma that Mary was conceived without original sin and that she gave birth as a virgin without the aid of a human father. But nowhere in the dogmas that have been promulgated and I have read about the Virgin Mary does it say she did not suffer pain. Suffering childbirth labor pains does not mean it is not a virginal birth. It is a testament to both her and her son, who though sinless, chose to endujre our human pain, especially the pain of the passion. It is only tradition and logic that the church uses to say that since Mary was exempt from original sin, then she was exempt from pain. Jesus was exempt from original sin, and he certainly suffered pain? Why could not Mary as Co-Mediatrix also choose to suffer our human pain even if she did not have to? I believe that she was exempt from committing sin as a result of the redemption of her son being applied to her beforehand, but not necessarily from being human and not suffering pain.

    And this is where I find inconsistency among all these cold intellectualizing dogmatic theologians. They claim that Mary did not suffer the pains of childbirth but are willing, even further the devotion to the sorrowful Madonna (September 125th) who also shared in all Christ’s passion even if she did not have to. What evidence from scripture (authority) are they using to make this distinction? They were not there at the cross or at the nativity so they have neither eye witness nor total scientific proof that she suffered the pain of the passion but not childbirth. That is, none other than the history of tradition that they have slowly been building up since Constantine declared the Catholic Church the state religion and since Constantine led the charge for the Church to put the Bible together and decide what is canonical and what wasn’t. I don’t think it dishonors Mary’s virginity to say that she suffered childbirth labor. It is not childbirth that makes you a virgin, but lack of sexual intercourse and human paternity. I think it adds to her majesty and beauty that even if she did not have to, she was willing to suffer this pain as well as share in the passion for love of her children. This makes her a more human and loving Mary that I can look up to.

    Furthermore, no where in the movie, does she in anyway contradict Zachary. She obeys and becomes bethrothed to Joseph. She anguishes mentally over it, and it is very reasonable that she does and very human, but anguishing over it is not a sin nor disobedience nor rebelliousness. I don’t think showing her at the beginning as a fun loving youngster insults her maturity and holiness. The Church does say through tradition that Mary had made a vow of virginity but subjected herself to Marriage to obey her parents. However this is just tradition, not a dogma. Anyway, could not Mary’s musings and pain at having to “marry someone she did not know nor love” also fit in partially with this tradition that she preferred not to marry? Just because she is seen as playful at the beginning, does not mean she was flirting nor that she preferred Marriage over virginity. In fact, the movie says nothing about this and leaves it open as artistic freedom, and there is nothing wrong with that. The movie shows her as a normal teen-ager but one who matures tremendously after the Angel Gabriel appears to her. I doubt very much Mary was mature since she was a little girl, and since these intellectualizing patriarchal priests were not there, all they can rely on is tradition which most of this tradition is not written down tradition, but their own opinion. The fact that the gospels say that Mary “Pondered all these things in her heart” shows she was human, did not fully understand everything, suffered pain as a result, but grew from it. The image that these dogmatists have been presenting of Mary and Jesus as pasteboard characters who are perfect from the beginning only alienates people more and this does not present them as real human beings that have feelings and emotions like the rest of us. I learned to love Mary much more from this movie and from her apparitions all over the world rather than from the intellectual rantings of priests such as this one who only want to use the media as a podium to show off how learned and superior to the rest of us they are. If this film was showing at the Vatican and it was accepted and even praised wholeheartedly without any criticisms by bishops and cardinals probably much more learned than this priest, why is this priest now, at this late state of the game, throwing aspersions under the hidden motive of trying to present “correct dogma” I am a Catholic and I certainly did not in any way change my view of Mary because of the artistic freedom taking in this movie. I doubt any Catholic would be ignorant of the true traditions and dogmas about Mary in this modern literate civilization, and even if they were, I doubt that the artistic ambiguity presented in this movie would make them start intellectualizing about whether Mary was truly a virgin and gave birth to Jesus virginally just because she suffered labor. In fact the movie does go out of the way to show that Jesus was a virgin birth and that Joseph was not the biological father. I think it is time that theologians stop their arrogant debating and splitting hairs over “how many angels dance on the head of a pin” and become more human like the rest of us.

    Vidiana

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    Uh… no labor pains??? That doesn’t sound right at all. I haven’t studied what the Church Fathers taught but, if Mary was free from labor pains because they are an after effect of original sin, then, in this srgument, she would never have died. Death is an after effect of original sin too. Why could Jesus die? He didn’t have original sin either. That just doesn’t make sense to me. Feel free to debate.
    dontagree@originalsin.hmm
    (Not a real e-mail address)

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    Vidiana,

    Are you not promulgating your own take on theology? Well you should, with Church guidance. The good Father E. has it as his job, too, and for providing guidance, and he has his beloved Sacramental Orders to prove it. 🙂

    I am not angry nor upset about the Church’s traditional stand, nor about clericalism – better to get ‘clerical’ (read: authoritative vs. authoritarian) in return when, where and with whom encountered. I find little foundation in a powerful Gospel for some takes on the virgin birth – which, after all, is more about virgin conception at its greatest import for us. I don’t think even mothers of a dozen can really relate to ‘virgin birth’ as they would wish to. All of us can relate to the unfathomable but gloriously righteous difference from the rest of us in the two Immaculate Conceptions – Mother and Son.

    As I noted, ‘the Church’s view is beautiful, gentle, kind and touchingly graced’ and loving in a tender, passionate way. In this, this view could be as right as rain. However, too, it is a view and not a doctrine. And, it seems small argument whether birth pangs accompanied the birth of our Christ as compared to the fact, then as now and all along, that God bothers with us, at all.

    Thence, to me, there is little need for what seems rancorous, from your writing. He has come and is coming again. Our beloved Holy Infant will be born to our beloved mother Mary yet again, to come get us and take us Home. However on this earth God chose to accomplish this, He has my own heartfelt gratitude and humble adoration. He could have just left me to my own hell.

    I remain your obedient servant, but God’s first,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @mail.catholicexchange.com or …yahoo.com)

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    Well put Vidiana. Whether Mary experienced labor pains or not should not be the main issue. She gave birth to the Son of God. Jesus is the reason. I’ve never quite understood the fascination with obscure details that are not in the Gospel. One would think a MAJOR point, like a no pain labor, would have been pointed out. (Since pain was common) Oh well, I’m just thankful we have a good family movie to see this Christmas season.

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    To Stsebastian: Regarding Mary’s “Death”

    The church is not definitive on Mary’s “death,” but we do know that she was ASSUMED, body and soul. Also, there has never been one ioda of a “remain” of Mary’s body, which would be quite unusual if she had died a “natural death.”

    I’ve heard some theologians say that Mary ASKED for a death, so that she could be in “total communion” and actually “die” as Jesus did.
    I doubt we will ever be sure on this side of the veil; suspect it’s best left to “dormition”, i.e, deep sleep.

    For any who want more clairty on the “supernatural birth”, suggest you take a look at the videos and discussion by Catholic priests on this site http://airmaria.com/. Also look at #499 in the CCC.

    Patricia
    San Diego

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    I agree with Father’s critique of the depiction of Mary at the beginning of the movie. It’s not too heavy-handed, but it misses a great opportunity to show that she always had faith. One can have faith and still suffer at one’s treatment or one’s future – Jesus did!

    As for the criticism of the birth, I disagree. Even Christ was subject, out of obedience, not necessity, to pain while in the flesh. Mary, too was subject to hunger and thirst, pain and death. Neither merited it, both were free from original sin. However, Christ submitted to the penalty of Adam in order to save us, and Mary cooperated by willingly bearing suffering also. The sacrifice of Christ’s obedience, joined in by Mary, was the key that opened the door to salvation, as even St. Thomas says.

    As for the virgin birth, the Church does indeed teach that Mary was ever-virgin, and that her virginity was “intact” during and after giving birth, but even the Catechism connects the “corporality” and “integrity” of her virginity to the fact that she knows no man, not to a clinical symptom. That is the main thing: she belongs to God. As for the corporeal manifestation of virginity, if considered to be the seal of the hymen only, then we are faced with two possibilities: either Jesus’ passed through her womb as He did the door with His glorified body, or the power of God allowed the hymen to stretch. God does not work unnecessary miracles. I think it is reasonable and orthodox to believe the second, especially in view of the OT verse (Exechiel?) that says that God alone opens and closes the door through which He comes. We have to be careful in adopting an ancient view of virginity as body only. Even St. Augustine said that the raped nuns retained their virginity, and it is possible to have a broken hyman from a variety of mishaps. So virginity in regard to sexual intercourse does not require an intact hymen. (An intact hymen indicates virginity; it itself is not virginity, and not all virgins have an intact hymen). This is only to make a distinction of definition, not to say anything with regard to Mary. The definition of virginity, not its sign, shows us that we must keep mind and heart focused on the essence: Mary knew no man ever; her virginity was a sign, said the Catechism, of her total adherence to God.

    There is a third possibility: that God opened the door, and sealed it again. If God opens (and from the inside) then it is not a violation of her virginity, which in essence has to do with her total belonging to Him, body and soul. That possibility might conform to the faith, but is speculation. As I read the literal words of Church defined doctrine, (and even the Fathers, who are authoritative guides but not authority), there is nothing that would necessarily gainsay these alternate understandings.

    What do you think, Father?

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    Just a question: It is my understanding that Mary was spared original sin. Are we not also washed clean of original sin at our baptisms? If this is true, why would her sparing be different than that of a baptized, faithful believer? I have no trouble accepting that there was no pain for her, but I wonder if it can be said that it is because of the lack of original sin. (Perhaps more her choice to choose not to sin throughout her life? Maybe just because Jesus is so loving and so respected His mother that He would not hurt her.) Maybe it was accepted in the early Church because Mary, herself said so to the early believers. There is very little in Scripture about what Mary said of herself. She always wanted the focus on the Savior. The Church still says that her role is to point to Jesus, so it did not choose to include a lot about Mary in Holy Scripture, but that does not mean that some of what was known about her wasn’t readily available to her contemporaries.

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    I agree with Father Tom, for his comments and many more. I didn’t like the statement by St. Joseph when he asked St. Mary to lie about where she got the donkey (but the Bible calls Josesph a ‘just’ man), I didn’t like that when they got to Jerusalem they acted like it was the first time they’d ever seen it when it should have been more like a second home to the Virgin, I didn’t like that the shepherds seemed to walk slowly to the manger, I didn’t like that one wise man seemed goofy and iffy about going, that one angel appeared to the shepherds when I think the Bible says more like a multitude, etc. I could go on, but I won’t. I appreciate the attempt, but minimizing or changing 2000 years of Church teaching, little by little, actually erodes the TRUTH little by little. It’s like a Roe V. Wade effect on society. At first the majority were against it because that was the truth, but now, over time, about half the country seems to think it’s ok. Again, it goes to an erosion of truth…of which the Church is the Pillar and Foundation…Ephesians.
    Andy

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    Thank you, Father Tom Euteneuer for your insights and clarifications on “The Nativity Story”. When I first saw the trailers for this movie it was captivating but like most Hollywood versions the movie itself was somewhat disappointing because it compromised the very miracle of this Joyful Mystery of our Faith (however, the movie still offers some dignity and hope). Needless, to say it just sends a poor image and lesson about the Infancy Narrative(s). As someone who works in the television/film industry the real question is why producers, writers, directors so often tend to play loosely with the Bible when the Scriptures itself unfolds flawless works of art between God and humanity and all of nature. It’s okay to add the special effects but the very heart of the story is constantly challenged. We need to stop defining God on our levels and return to “…God’s thoughts are not our thoughts, God’s ways are not our ways…”. If we can do this then we may begin to find greater strength in our spirituality and less doubt, which only brings about consternation to our relationship with Jesus and His Church.

    As I read over some of the comments posted by my breathren I am truly happy to know that there is much love to adhere to our Church’s traditions. For those who question…please remember that the Church is founded by Jesus Christ therefore, She can not err when it comes to teaching the Truth as willed by Christ and sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

    Wishing you A Blessed Christmas and a New Year filled with God’s continued graces.

    Peace,
    Robert

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    Well, with all due respect to Fr. Tom Euteneuer, here’s my opinion on the subject, which I have as much right to as anyone else:

    1. “Losing one’s viginity” does NOT happen when giving birth to a child–it occurs when first consenting to, then having sexual relations. The fact that childbirth sometimes results from having sexual relations for the first time is simply consequential.

    2. By the merits of her Son, Mary IS conceived without original sin, which exempts her from its consequences, one of which is labor pains. However, pregnancy and birth are normal, human processes that were intended by our Creator for human procreation from all eternity, prior to the sin of Adam and Eve. Thus, it is proper–though now miraculous–that Mary, by God’s grace, should give birth to God’s Son via the normal human process, but without the normal pain of childbirth.

    3. In His coming to save us, Jesus shared our human existence in all ways but sin. Being born is not sinful. His being “translated” from the womb of the Virgin, as some Church Fathers have speculated, would have interfered with, or even contradicted, His shared human experience right near the beginning of it. (In fact, why even bother with a pregnancy?) Instead, His natural, while wholly miraculous, birth sanctifies the entire process for all of the human race.

    So, I believe that Mary, as the New Eve, conceived without sin, experienced the entire pregnancy and childbirth process the way it was supposed to be experienced–without any discomfort whatsoever (the trip to Bethlehem notwithstanding). And since she had no sexual relations, she retained her virginity. Period.

    (One can argue that my personal definition of virginity does not apply with the modern existence of unnatural, artificial insemination, of course, but that would not have been an issue with Our Lady.)

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    I mostly agree with Father Tom’s presentation on the two most prominent criticisms of The Nativity Story. First, a wholehearted agreement that any presentation of Mary being in rebellion against her parents is a false presentation because rebellion against parents, even in a mere minor moment, is at least venial sin and directly contradicts the dogmas on the Immaculate Conception and even (though I won’t discuss here why) the Assumption.

    Indeed, his criticism of the movie’s depiction of a painful childbirth for Mary is cleverly presented: “The movie’s portrayal of her childbirth is thus not the Church’s mainstream understanding and qualifies as a strictly private interpretation of the event.” Indeed it does, and it does contradict a long and venerable tradition that Mary did not experience labor pains during birth. However, it is important to note that such a depiction, while it remains very much a private interpretation, does not contradict the Deposit of Faith. There are two very simple reasons for this.

    First of all, the Biblical presentation of the Fall, in which Adam and Eve yield to sin and are then sent forth has a clear premise for their removal from Terrestrial Paradise. That clear premise is Original Sin. It is the cause. One of the effects of Original Sin, as Genesis 3:16 makes very clear, is that a woman’s labor pains are greatly increased. This can be expressed as a logical statement that goes thus: If a woman suffers from Original Sin, then she experiences greatly increased labor pains when giving birth. This is logically equivalent to its contrapositive, which states: If a woman does not experience greatly increased labor pains during birth, then she does not suffer from Original Sin. Thus, keeping strictly to the original statement and its contrapositive (which say exactly the same thing), the venerable tradition of Mary not experiencing labor pain is wholly consistent with the Church’s dogmatic teaching and is probably the best interpretation of the event.

    However, logic does not allow us to definitively deduce the converse of a logical statement absent additional premises. The converse of the original is: If a woman does not suffer from Original Sin, then she will not suffer from greatly increased labor pains. The contrapositive of the converse is logically equivalent: If a woman suffers from greatly increased labor pains, then she suffers from Original Sin. Neither of these statements can be definitively inferred from the original, which is merely a logical statement of the story of the Fall from Genesis 3, i.e. If a woman suffers from Original Sin, then she experiences greatly increased labor pains when giving birth. Right reason applied to this dogmatic statement does not allow us to completely exclude the possibility of a sinless woman (like Mary) suffering from labor pains nonetheless. Thus, while The Nativity Story remains very much a private interpretation in its depiction of Jesus’s birth, that interpretation does not contradict the Deposit of Faith, not even the dogmatic teaching of the Church that Mary remained a virgin before during and after the birth of Jesus (we can discuss this last point later if you like). This conclusion is definitely a corner case, but the mere possibility of it allows this position to be held without contradicting the Faith.

    The second reason that led me to explore this line of reasoning was one of David Scott’s articles on the Immaculate Conception. Mr. Scott notes that before the Immaculate Conception was dogmatically defined, St. Thomas Aquinas argued against it: “Though few reached his rhetorical heights, the theological establishment overwhelmingly sided with Bernard. Great saints and doctors of the Church—from Anslem to Thomas Aquinas—all taught that Mary was conceived in original sin.”

    This is an important point because the preeminent logician, Thomas Aquinas, would never have been able to sustain his argument that Mary was conceived in Original Sin had it been dogmatically defined that Mary did not suffer from labor pains. This is because the contrapositive of the story from Genesis 3, as noted above, states: If a woman does not experience greatly increased labor pains during birth, then she does not suffer from Original Sin. Put another way, if the Church had dogmatically defined that Mary did not suffer labor pains, then the story of Genesis 3 becomes a proof text for the Immaculate Conception. However, the Genesis story was not taken as such a proof text by St. Thomas Aquinas, among others. It took more consideration and Pope Pius IX Bull to define this dogma. This suggests strongly that Mary’s lack of labor pains during birth are somewhat less than dogmatically defined.

    Note that this in no way is to be construed as an argument that one should not believe that Mary was free from labor pains. Indeed, the opposite is true: this belief remains a beautiful and holy tradition that deserves the respect of those who produce movies depicting the Nativity of Jesus. However, absent a specific decree of the Magisterium or a Papal Bull, there is room (however small) to accept Ms. Hardwicke’s admittedly private interpretation of the event.

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    All the dogmatic issues with Our Lady aside, wasn’t anyone struck by her seemingly lack of joy? She was very serious throughout the movie, and did smile on rare occasions, but her demeanor did not constitute a joyful existence. I always picture Our Blessed Mother laughing, and smiling, and obeying her parents joyfully, instead of disgruntingly. Also, what about the reactions of our beautiful saints, St. Anne and St. Joachim? Would they have reacted in such a harsh manner to the news of the conception of Our Lord? Of course not. I perceive this movie as I perceive most movies; someone’s obscured interpretation of a classic story. God bless all, jblack

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    I think we have to be very careful in this day and age when so many of our beliefs are under assault.
    John Paul II’s audiences:
    On Calvary, Mary united herself to the sacrifice of her Son and made her own maternal contribution to the work of salvation, which took the form of labour pains, the birth of the new humanity
    We are not talking about a natural birth that may or may not have caused a rupture, or may or may not have been accompanied by pain. We are talking about a miraculous birth that has been affirmed over and over again by the likes of St. Ambrose St. Augustine, St. Peter Chrysologus, St. Leo the Great, St. Bernard, St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure, to mention only a few, and defined by the Lateran Council in 649.

    Finally, St. Bonaventure neatly brings together the mystery of Our Lady’s sorrows and the Christmas event in the pithy statement: “That which in the Nativity She brought forth with joy, in the Passion She gave birth to with sorrow” (Commentary on Luke, c. 23). Our Lady does have pain in childbirth, but only at the foot of the cross as Mother of the Church.
    Finally, St. Bonaventure neatly brings together the mystery of Our Lady’s sorrows and the Christmas event in the pithy statement: “That which in the Nativity She brought forth with joy, in the Passion She gave birth to with sorrow” (Commentary on Luke, c. 23). Our Lady does have pain in childbirth, but only at the foot of the cross as Mother of the Church.
    its miraculous nature.
    The Virgin Birth is an essential part of the dogma of the Perpetual Virginity, and in addition to its value as a sign of Christ’s divinity, its miraculous nature just further underscores Our Lady’s unique, grace-filled and exalted place in God’s plan. It inspires us to praise Her, admire Her and love Her for Her glorious Virginal Maternity. And while one might expect a Protestant filmmaker to get this wrong, it at least opens up the discussion which can help correct a real doctrinal error believed by many Catholics.
    not only does the movie get the Virgin Birth wrong, it thoroughly Protestantizes its portrayal of Our Lady.”

    Niether am not one to confuse art and theology, but even from an artistic point of view, I do not see the advantage of naturalizing the most supernatural event that ever occurred. I know I will be told that mothers have more to identify with in a naturalistic representation, but in reality far more is to be lost than gained. Our heavenly Mother can help us so much, because She is really different.I always accepted that if the conception was a miracle, then so could the birth be – that’s a matter of faith. As a matter of logic, it seemed strange that Mary should have to carry the infant Jesus in her womb until the time of birth if the birth was to be other than the normal way, i.e. miraculous. Of course the manner of this miraculous birth shall remain always a mystery to us in this world.
    “To Eve it was said: In sorrow shalt thou bring forth children. Mary was exempt from this law, for preserving her virginal integrity inviolate she brought forth Jesus the Son of God without experiencing, as we have already said, any sense of pain.”
    The Bible states quite plainly that painful childbirth came as punishment for original sin and we were always taught that Our Lady was conceived without sin and therefore would not have painful childbirth and was still a virgin after the birth. It was so nice to finally hear someone else (Father Euteneur) acknowledge this fact. Also, the fact that Mary is portrayed as a “typical teenager” does not set an example of pureness and total trust for our teenagers and others to follow. Why must we always bring that which is beautiful and exceptional down to a lower standard before we will even look at it or consider it? Modernism and relativism is when truth and untruth is portrayed together and eventhough there may be a lot of good in this movie, it is once again a mixing and muddying of the whole truth so that those who do not know much of their faith, will fall prey to that which is not truth.

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    In regard to pain in childbirth, back in the 1970’s there was a movement dedicated to “natural childbirth”; that is to attaining childbirth without medication. Some of the leaders even used terms such as “painless” childbirth. And one Christian lady (Protestant) wrote a book with scriptural references showing that pain in childbirth came from sin. Her conclusion was that good Christian women ought to be able to give birth without pain.
    If without pain means without strong pain that makes one cry out, then there were many prepared mothers at this time who gave birth without “pain” or medication. However such births were not without effort (labor).
    Certainly, it is most fitting that the woman without sin- the new Eve- would at least have had this sort of painless childbirth which could be achieved by modern mothers with preparation.

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    Yes, I noticed the portrayal and its lack of joy and all the frowning do; I t hought Our Lady was poorly cast.  There was nothing specially sweet or loveable about her and you know that she HAD to have been the most loveable of girls.

    St. Joseph lifting her skirt as she gives birth in pain is not our tradition at all.  Just as Jesus was conceived miraculously, so too He was born miraculously.

    Another good discussion is found at http://www.AirMaria.com

     

    Ave Maria!

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    Compared to this pile of baggage, the Protestant attempting to impale me on his logic in asking if I am born-again is highly relevant. This topic has been beaten to the point that the angels have no more pin on which head to stand. Get some more propitious topics – like, in one forum, which one virtue is the one you would most like to attain.

    Mary, of God’s will, has it all. Time for us to ‘go and do likewise’, and ‘do whatever He tells me’.

    I remain your obedient servant, but God’s first,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @mail.catholicexchange.com or …yahoo.com)

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    Praise The Lord for “The Nativity Story”–I don’t remember reading so many comments prompted by a postive movie, despite it’s flaws. I’m convinced Our Lord and His Mother Mary and His Foster-Father Joseph take joy in seeing the interest this simple movie has generated. Before we come down too hard on those who broght this movie to the scereen, I suggest though Saint Mary is sinless she was a human who was a baby, a child, and a teenager before she was an adult. If Jesus had to progress “…in wisdom and age and grace before God and men”(Luke 2:52 The New American Bible translation)and He is God; would not Mary who is human, though sinless, also progress through a maturing process?

    Also, we cannot forget that our separated bretheren do not have all resources we are blessed with. Merry Christmas and I pray that 2007 be a year of more good positive movies.

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    The pain of childbirth is an effect or punishment due to original sin. Look back to Genesis. Baptism does not spare us as human beings born with original sin. We still must suffer the pain of childbirth as man must suffer when cultivating the land. Somewhere else in the Bible it says that “a woman shall be saved through the pains of childbirth.” Mary did not need to experience pain to be saved. She had no original sin. As far as Christ’s redemptive sacrifice, the pain was necessary to make up for the sins of man. This is different than deserving the pain because he wanted to make up for man.

    Pax Bonum!

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    It seems that the word dogma is being applied in this string inappropriately. Fr Eteneuer was not claiming the painless delivery of Jesus as dogmatically proclaimed or free of error and thus essential for us to believe. He said that it was “contrary to the Christian Church’s long tradition.” This is doctrinal but not dogmatic. That is, it is something that the saints and some later church fathers asserted as true. As such it carries greater weight than a theory independently developed and taught two-thousand years after the fact (like feminism). That point is very well reasoned but could be supported better with references. You can find some good ones at New Advent (look for the section “Mary gives birth to Our Lord”).

    There were other errors perhaps equally serious in the film. Mary was depicted as assisting to impede the pursuit of justice which the Romans at the time had the authority to do. She was shown helping to move a fallen tree branch in the path of soldiers who were chasing someone. To assist without knowing if the person being chased is a criminal or not could make you an accomplice. Mary was also markedly unhelpful to Elizabeth, or to her relatives she was traveling with. Although I’m sure she has a sense of humor and might play at appropriate times, her throwing the seeds at her coworkers in the field seemed wrong. They actually did a better job of portraying Joseph than they did Mary.

    Allow me to recommend that good Catholics who see this movie pray the Seven Sorrows of Mary in reparation for her poor portrayal in this film.

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    This is another case of arguing about the arrangement of the deck chairs as the Titanic is going down. Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular are completely under seige in our culture as I’m sure everyone is aware. Anytime a Hollywood studio makes a movie as respectful and tender in its treatment of the Christian story, I believe we should support it with our dollars and our word of mouth advertising–not tear it down because it might have gotten a few of the finer points wrong. What I got out of the movie was how difficult Advent was for Mary and for Joseph as they spent it on the journey to Bethlehem–it made me take a second look at how I choose to spend my Advent preparation time. I thought the images of Joseph with bleeding feet and giving his food to Mary were extremely moving and were something that I had never thought of before. And to say that Mary should have had a smile on her face the entire time is ridiculous. It was a difficult and dangerous time for her–and though she was without sin, nothing in the Bible or my 45 years of Catholicism has taught me that she was without doubt or fear or discomfort or hunger or thirst or any other negative. For us to have fear or doubt or discomfort is not a sin–to give in to those fears and doubts, to give up hope or to despair is sinful. The movie never portrayed Mary as despairing or doubting God, simply feeling natural human emotion and reaction and then accepting it as part of God’s plan. Attacking that which is not truly the enemy only serves the purposes of the enemy. If this discussion discourages Catholics from going to this movie because it’s not perfect in its portrayal, then the movie may not be as successful and what you have done is helped ensure that Hollywood will continue to roll out its successful formula of sex & violence.

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    Thank you Father! I have not heard of any concern or information from the clergy or bishops cautioning about the Nativity Story. (But then we need to pick our battles, I suppose.) I had concerns when I learned that it shows Mary having labor pains. This is contrary to our Catholic belief/dogma that Mary was a Virgin before, during, and after the birth of Jesus. Having a child the natural way is not possible and still remain a virgin. As St. Augustine (I believe) wrote, that as Jesus passed through the sealed tomb and was resurrected, so he passed through his mother to maintain her virginity. karen

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    The theaters I attended in the last couple of months advertised 5 or 6 secular movies in celebration of Christmas, that have absolutely nothing to do with the birth of Jesus Christ. The symphony in the city I live in, produced a totally secular view of Christmas this year too, with only one mention of our Lord Jesus in the entire 2 hour program.

    Quite frankly, I applaud the efforts of any christian people who attempt to bring the birth of Jesus Christ back into our celebrations of Christmas. Instead of focusing on our differences in religion this Christmas, I just wish we could all get along, Protestant and Catholic alike. As Christians, we have more in common with one another than we do differences.

    May there be peace on earth. And may it begin with me.

    Glory to God in the Highest.

    And peace to His people on earth.

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    Dear Father,

    I enjoyed your article on The Nativity very much–having seen it about three weeks ago and having been embroiled in a great deal of controversy within our Catholic Home Schooling group because of it. However, there is one thing I do not understand about the Church’s position on Mother Mary’s having given birth to Jesus without labor pains. If we interpret the Lady of Revelation to be Mother Mary, and she is crying out in pain as she gives birth to the Son of God, why would we think that St. Mary did not have labor pains? How can we tell Protestants that the Lady of Revelation is Mary (the Woman crowned with the twelves stars, etc.), but that, unlike the Lady of Revelation, Mary did not give birth to Jesus with any labor pains whatsoever?

    Any clarification you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

    God bless and thank you very much, Diane M. Salgado

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    I am so glad you wrote this. I walked out of the movie before the actors even got to Bethlehem because I was so annoyed by the portrayal of Mary. In the film, she come’s across as an unlikeable and morose teenager who talks back to her parents. All an audience member could think is, “Why would God choose a girl like this.” I especially disliked Mary’s initial coldness to Joseph. Mary would never be so unkind. I know the filmakers had the best of intentions, but I found the movie insulting to the Mother of God.

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    To Diane,
    I just want to help clarify your question regarding the labor pains mentioned in the book of Revelation. You are right that the woman is Mary. But she labors not to give birth to Jesus but the rest of her offspring given her by Jesus at the foot of the cross and also as fortold in the book of Genesis 3:15 God says to Satan “I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel. She (Mary) is the new Eve cooperating with the new Adam (Jesus) they have no original sin, nor do they have the stain of original sin. Those of us who have been baptized have had our original sin removed but the stain of it remains. Original sin is really when one doubts God, lacks total faith and trust, thus leaving them open to Satan’s influence and deceits. That somehow if you follow God your life won’t be as good. That it won’t be as fun or exciting, that doing what he wants will take away from your own happiness or make you less interesting to others. Mary and Jesus did not even have the stain of orgininal sin which remains in the rest of us even after baptism. Now to move on. Mary labors to give birth to us, the rest of her offspring. In one of Scott Hahn’s books, “Hail Holy Queen,” He states: Addressing the question of why the woman of Revelation is still in labor, though she is in heaven, Pope Pius X said: ” What birth was it? Surely it was the birth of us who, still in exile, are yet to be generated to the perfect charity of God, and to eternal happiness. And the birth pains show the love and desire with which the Virgin from heaven above watches over us, and strives with unwearing prayer to bring about the fullfillment of the number of the elect.” And in Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.

    I hope this helped—Melissa

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    There is nothing in Scripture that says Mary never went through childbirth. The early fathers lived in an era when childbirth was considered ‘unclean’ and thus did not want to defile Mary and as a consequence Jesus’ birth.

    We have lived 2000 years since then. The era has passed and the Church has thankfully grown in her understanding of women and / or traditions. Sadly, some refuse to grow with the Church… There were early “Fathers” who also claimed that Jesus did not suffer and die but that as Son of God he was preserved from suffering?? So, what do we really understand.

    Therefore I submit that the issue is not that of the pangs of childbirth which as women who have given birth know is the most beautiful event in life… Now, how would the celibate “Fathers” have experienced that to comment on such?

    Thank God for Vatican II that has opened the doors to fulness of life that God gave the world in Creation and in the wonders of the the pangs [pain] of childbirth.

    NB: I thought it was wonderful that Joseph assisted in the childbirth as a loving father would today… and Joseph was a good, loving father to Jesus.

    Judy

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    Good article

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    Judy:

    Doctrinal or dogmatic pronouncements about Mary in reality say nothing about her, but rather all point to our understanding of Christ. Everything else is logical consequent. So, to say that she was preserved from Original Sin in anticipation of the Sacrifice at Calvary, that she might be a worthy vessel for God and that hers would be an undefiled human nature to unite with that of God is really meant to tell us that Jesus is God, whose nature would consume anything imperfect. From scripture it follows that, because pain in childbirth was a consequence of Original Sin, and because Mary was preserved from the same, she experienced no pain in childbirth (simple syllogism). Similarly, it follows that because death for men was a consequence of Original Sin, and Mary was preserved from the same, she did not die (note that church document refer to “when her time on earth was at an end,” and in the Eastern tradition we have her Dormition (falling asleep)).

    You’ll have to back up the statement that the early fathers believed that childbirth was “unclean” and so developed the understanding of Mary’s childbirth as free of pain etc. in order to try to “preserve” her from being considered such. To my knowledge, the Church has never had the sense of ritual uncleanliness (as the Jews had, which would have made Joseph’s assistance in a natural (vs. miraculous) birth unlikely). Further, the Church has always looked to “unanimous consent” of the fathers – not just the theological opinion of one or even a couple. What we really understand then is what we are taught by our Church guided by the offices of the Holy Spirit.

    I’m not sure what, exactly, Vatican II has to do with the discussion. Munificentissimus Deus, which defined the dogma of the assumption, and references her virginity as “intact” is certainly not overridden by Vatican II. Nor do I recall any document from that council referencing the “wonders of the the [sic] pangs [pain] or childbirth.”

    Michael

    “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried”

    “The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.” – GK Chesterton

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    I did not see the Nativity for the simple reason that I did not want to see my beloved Mother Mary portrayed in any way that would lessen her sinlessness, modesty, sainthood, greatness or total complete dedication to our Lord and His Will for her. To misrepresent Mary in any way is to misrepresent our Faith. And on this, Catholics should never be willing to compromise. I believe Jesus would be grieved at the portrayal of His Mother in this film.

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    How can any Catholic support a movie that blasphemes the Mother of God? Blaspheming Mary is calling God a liar! What difference does it make that the movie is “reverent” and “touching” when it is produced by Protestants who hate Mary? Her Immaculate Conception is denied by portraying her a sinner. Her perpetual virginity is denied by depicting Joseph as building a home with apparently many rooms for many children. Her Virgin birth is denied by the depiction of her painful labor. The spineless U.S. Bishops Conference gave this blasphemous, sacriligious movie two thumbs up. They are the bishops of the country whose Patronness is the Immaculate Conception!

    I urge all Catholics to boycott this film and to say Rosaries of reparation to our Mother’s sorrowful and Immaculate Heart. Remember, the devil’s specialty is to mix truth with lies, which is exactly what this movie does. Also remember that Satan hates Mary with a rage and passion as can never be imagined–because he knows that it is only a matter of time before she crushes his head! Catholics patronizing and approving this film are advocating and accepting blasphemy against the Mother of God!

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    NOW – less Queenly, Motherly, Immaculate and Holy for being a natural mother at birth. That virgin conception isn’t enough. That Motherhood of God just doesn’t have the sheen it should without a whole ball of wax that precludes Mary’s full and fully human womanhood and motherhood. Her Son is God, not her.

    I have witnessed some wondrous Christocentricity in little old ladies dancing attendance to the Mother with whom (as Moms and women themselves) they relate better. It was quite the “Go ask your Son, Mary to . . .” and as precious as a child’s prayer. Child of God, they went to Mom with the problem . . . as human as Mary herself.

    However, this dread of Mary less than some iconic demi-goddess – you will note in anything that she says, she never claims anything but being “His Mom” – I have encountered, too. It does smack of idolatry and an adoration that compounds complications with our Christocentric life.

    The Passion of the Christ caught a Marian moment not related in the Gospels – the very tender motherly act of kissing her now-raised-and-enthroned crucified Child on His foot – all Mom could reach. It tore my heart from my chest (‘. . . breathe again, Warren, it’s only a movie . . .’) verily because she is only Mom, in all her sorrow, right there. Her glory with God and from God is magnificent for her very humanity in all its humble beauty. And, His signature is all over that most gracious, tender moment.

    The Passion is better than The Nativity Story? No doubt – it out-Ben-Hur-ed Ben Hur and more greatly told of The Greatest Story Ever Told. But, I also know that we better take the hands dealt to us in our culture of death if we are ever going to bid to turn it into the culture of renewal of life. You aren’t going to get another BenHur or Greatest Story . . . out of the big studios of filmdom, anymore. We better grasp at those who give the Faith a reasonable viewing. Or, would you prefer to wait for just the next Cruise-y or Depp-y?

    As a very inspired aside to the Marian issues, of a typical embrace by the Spirit of my heart and soul, I use that scene from The Passion of the Christ to counter temptation. I imagine myself going up to Mary to tell her just why I have to hurt Him that much more. I can so easily imagine telling the same thing to that young mother, in her amazed cuddling of very God. ‘I intend to nail Him to His Crucifix some thirty-three years hence. You don’t mind, do you?’

    I remain your obedient servant, but God’s first,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @mail.catholicexchange.com or …yahoo.com)

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    I don’t think they hate Mary. That’s a very strong statement. This is not a Catholic made movie, therefore it will lack the Catholic view of Mary. I don’t think we should boycott or protest against it. It almost sounds as if Mary is coming before Christ, which is worrisome.

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    pbwy, et al.,

    I don’t believe that anyone has suggested that pain-free labor is a matter of dogma, nor does failure to acknowledge it as a matter of piety contradict any dogmatic pronouncement (to my knowledge). In fact, looking back at the posts, it seems those against the pious tradition of pain free childbirth attributed to Mary suppose those supporting it to believe it is dogmatic; a conclusion lacking all evidence. I also don’t believe that anyone on this forum means to suggest that suffering is a result of one’s personal sin or that Mary could not suffer. We know, in fact, that she did suffer as Simeon prophesied.

    The reasoning, as I indicated above, is syllogistic. Certain punishments or chastisements are the direct result of the sin of our first parents; punishment. Having been preserved from that and without evidence to the contrary, we logically conclude that those were also punishments from which she was preserved. She may have chosen to suffer them; the Bible is silent on both counts but logic and the lack of revelation or dogmatic/doctrinal pronouncement to the contrary seem to support a conclusion that suffering as punishment was absent.

    The difference between Christ and His Blessed Mother with respect to suffering and death is that Christ became sin; taking upon himself every sin to the extent that even the Father could not look on Him (My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me). He accepted our punishment as the only sacrifice capable of atoning for that infinite separation (1 Tim 2:5). In Revelation, the pain of birth is more typically understood as Mary “giving birth” to the Church. Indeed, the loss of her Son caused her great pain, but was necessary for the birth of the Catholic faith. And only Christ was able to fully redeem the debt of our sin. Mary’s participation as Co-redemptrix is primarily through her “Fiat,” her total surrender to the Will of God. She cooperated with God to bring about man’s redemption, but was not responsible for it. Certainly her own sufferings could be joined to that of her Son, as can ours (though I’m sure hers have greater merit, united as they are totally to the Will of God) but her personal sufferings alone lack any redemptive qualities without her Son.

    Absolutely one is free to believe as he wishes in this particular case without suffering anathema or accusation of heresy…on either side. But the movie (and I’ve not seen it, and won’t for reasons enumerated in other posts) seems to minimize Mary, exalted by God as the mother of His Son, preserved free from the stain of every sin, given as our mother through the pain of the Cross, and gloriously assumed into the Beatific Vision. I think I’d rather see The Little Drummer Boy for the umpteenth time rather than see Mary reduced so.

    Michael

    “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried”

    “The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.” – GK Chesterton

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    Again, I must insist that the idea that Mary birthing Jesus through labor pains is not contrary to any dogma. Specifically, it does not contradict the dogma of perpetual virginity. It may appear at first glance to contradict the tradition of Mary as the new Eve but it is not essential that suffering negate innocence or sinlessness (cf. Jn 9:1-3 the blind man was not blind from his own sin, Job was chosen to suffer not because of his own sin. It pleased the Lord that Jonah be thrown overboard Jon 1:14. Issac was to be sacrificed not because of any fault of his. Joseph was sold into slavery and imprisoned not because of his own sin. Etc. – This is essential understanding because they all point to Christ who is spotless and thus not punishable for himself but only for the sins of others. So it is a right understanding of these scriptures.) Furthermore, reasoning from dogma that the birth of Christ was painless does not automatically make that reasoning dogmatic, especially when the reasoning could be flawed or could be missing some finer point. It is tradition, and perhaps a strong one but it is not binding on the conscience to believe. Consider that Christ was sinless also but that he suffered. Consider that Mary’s martyrdom is bloodless but martyrdom nonetheless… such that she suffered. She could have chosen to suffer during childbirth just the way Jesus chose to be baptized though he did not need it. As Dianne mentioned, the woman in Revelation who we recognize as Mary does indeed cry out in pain to deliver her son (Rev 12:2). There is scriptural evidence for both positions and they may both be true at the same time. Though Mary would be exempt from birthing pains by virtue of her Immaculate Conception and fullness of grace she may have chosen to cooperate with all that God requires. To elaborate on Fr. Euteneur’s point from Romans; what it says in paraphrase is that just as one man sinned for all one man also atoned for all sin. We infer Eve and the new Eve in this quote. And it is a good point that since Eve cooperated in that sin with Adam so too would the new Eve cooperate in redemption with the savior (this is how we understand Mary’s co-redemptive role). It is fitting that the new Eve should accept suffering as punishment for the first Eve’s sin since both Adam and Eve were apparently lacking contrition (Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the serpent but Jesus and Mary blame no one). In this way it does not contradict any dogma. We are free to believe as we wish in this area. Any properly catechized person should be able to confirm this. I would like to hear from Fr. Euteneuer on this point. Will you confirm this please?

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    Thank you for clarifying Michael. I am not defending the movie. I really didn’t like and I agree it was a poor representation of Mary.

    RE: “In fact, looking back at the posts, it seems those against the pious tradition of pain free childbirth attributed to Mary suppose those supporting it to believe it is dogmatic; a conclusion lacking all evidence” Yes, that’s my point. It seems that many are thinking that it is dogmatic or that Fr. E. said so. He did not. I was trying to point that out and asked Fr. to make this point plain but your reply has crystallized it. Thank you.

    RE: “She cooperated with God to bring about man’s redemption, but was not responsible for it.” I wish to retract this sentence, “But don’t stop there; Since redemption required the suffering of the new Adam it is fitting that it should also require the suffering of the new Eve (same reasoning carried to its fruition).” I did not mean for it read as though I was deifying Mary’s role or saying that she was responsible for redemption. I stand by my point that Mary’s fiat is the fulfillment of perfect contrition which the first Eve lacked. That perfect contrition may be expressed by a desire to make amends, reparation or do penance even if she doesn’t have to (yes I know she has nothing to be contrite for but I am speaking in archetypes), and it could include a choice to endure natural pain associated with child birth. You have already acknowledged this possibility. I accept that there is no syllogism that follows from dogma to prove this and that absence of pain does have such a syllogism (a point I made in an earlier post in this string when contrasting against the feminist POV). I appreciate your acknowledging of the freedom to believe one way or the other.

    I thought this was getting out of hand and I apologize if my tone was less than charitable. It was not intended.

    Micheal, are you the moderator? I believe you have responded as a moderator to some of my posts before. With this new format it is hard to tell.

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    pbwy:

    I never thought you were excercising a “less than charitable” tone. I only wanted to clarify prior posts (including mine) and answer yours.

    Now, my turn to apologize. If I have come across as a moderator it was in no way intended. I am not a moderator. My posts may be terse from habit of writing but they are in no way intended to convey authority. So to any who have taken offense, I humbly submit my apology.

    Michael

    “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried”

    “The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.” – GK Chesterton

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    Theology as seen in the words of St Anslem being “faith seeking understanding”..[I have nothing against the early Fathers good theology.] First i must say that this forum is a good place for theologising with openess and knowledge of Church and her teachings on the part of most… and for that i am gratefully Catholic.

    Michael, while i’m not retracting what i said,i appreciate your responses to my earlier post. The point on Vat. II was simply to say that there is a new and fresh understanding of nature and consequently the natural beauty of childbirth which in no way undermines Mary as a Woman and Mother of God. [whether this is syllogistic or logical, i really don’t know because i speak as an intuitive woman].

    I would like to ask you to clarify your use of the term “co-redemptrix” for Mary in one of your later responses. As far as i know the Church as recently disapproved of this title for Mary?

    Blessings…

    Judy

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    Judy:

    Thanks for your post. I was not aware that the church disapproved this title of Mary. Along with co-Mediatrix, this title has a long history in the church, recognizing Mary’s unique role in salvation history.

    Vox Populi expresses the understanding better than I, however. Again, I don’t know that that non-dogmatic title for Mary has been removed, but would be interested in seeing that pronouncement. I was under the impression that Pope John Paul II did not act on the petition, not that it was rejected.

    Michael

    “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried”

    “The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.” – GK Chesterton

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    I still think all the attack on this movie in this forum is ridiculous. It was never intended to be a theology lesson or even a Catholic movie. I don’t understand how someone can say they’d rather see “The Little Drummer Boy” than this movie and by implication with some of the other posts that those of us who HAVE seen it and recommend it are somehow cooperating with people who hate Mary. I don’t believe I need to say any rosaries in reparation for seeing this movie. For goodness sakes, most of what Hollywood has churned out as “Christmas” movies the last few years are things like Arnold fighting for toys in “Jingle all the way” or “Christmas with the Cranks”. I think we should whole-heartedly support a touching portrayal of the real Christmas story. This is no different than any nativity play or portrayal that is done in just about every Catholic school & church in the country. It’s a depiction of the story of Mary & Joseph and the birth of Jesus–it’s not a religion or theology lesson. And it didn’t depict Mary as sinful at all. She was shocked, she had questions, she was human–but she humbly submitted to the will of God and to her parents. Just as with the “Passion of the Christ”, there are people out there who honestly don’t know the Gospel story and I truly hope and pray that this movie will move some of them to come to know Jesus.

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    Mom of 5:

    I don’t believe that there was any implication that your choosing to see the movie means that you are in cooperation with evil. By all means if you want to see the movie, do so. I choose not to support it for the reasons all enumerated in prior posts both here and in another, related, thread. The reference to Little Drummer Boy was meant to be over-the-top…yet I believe that it still projects a sense of the numinous greater than things about which I’ve read regarding this movie.

    Michael

    “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried”

    “The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.” – GK Chesterton

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    Michael,
    Thank you for your apology I am not offended… only by it you have gained my attention since you reason well and know your catechism. The terse quality of your writing is easy to read and understand and yes does convey authority but that is nothing to apologize for. You have done me a good service by pointing out the liberty I took with my own reasoning. But I understand how you might feel about being terse. One reviewer of my writing has described it as pithy. I consider it both my best and worst review. These days when information is so abundant and there is so much to read a terse or pithy quality can be a compliment to the writer or at least an advantage to the reader.

    Anyway… I think we see eye to eye on this painless birth issue.

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    mom of 5,

    You bring up a good point that Hollywood seldom makes movies with any sensitivity toward Christianity. However, our support of the movie would only encourage their clear non-mainstream, alternative and anti Catholic approach they take with most movies. It would be like advocating the lesser of evils. Besides, I just didn’t see the sensitivity that you did in this film. You are entitled to your opinion, for sure but I can not validate the substance of it. I do not even need to critique this movie on religious standards. Secular standards will do just fine. Anyone who “does not know the gospel” may still find this movie lacking. Sometimes the dialog was so casual that when there was a direct quote form the Bible it seemed terribly out of place… like the author was trying to make the Bible fit the dialog instead of making the dialog fit the Bible. This also made for a stark contrast when developing characters. While I found the banter between wise men amusing at times the overall treatment of the conjunction of events was just plain contrived. Yes the Nativity image was painterly but also far too calculated and artificial. If we see sensitivity in this movie it is probably something it inherits from the true story of the birth of Christ. In those areas where it is truly biblical yes, there are moments of beauty. These moments are unfortunately undermined by a feminist agenda and a missing denouement. They could have at least left us with a quote like: “The child grew and became strong, filled with wisdom; and the favor of God was upon him.” Lk 2:40. Granted this occurs in the Bible after the loss and finding of Jesus in the Temple but it would have conveyed to the viewer that the family was safe by divine providence. If they were really treating this story with sensitivity they would have better attended to these details.

    When I said that good Catholics who see the movie ought to pray the seven sorrows in reparation, I was not saying that we sin in viewing, advocating or patronage of the movie. I was saying that those who sense that there is something not right about it could pray and offer it to promote the good name of Holy Mother Mary.

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    Fr. Euteneuer is so right. I knew beforhand that they would show Our Lady in labor pains and not make Her look as majestic and noble as She really is. For those who argue that Our Lady tasted death, they are wrong again. She tasted what many saints say is a kind of sleep. Our lady is Immaculate and God is omnipotent. Our Lady is so special, man’s brains cannot fathom it. I would like to recomend the mystical city of God by Ven. Mary of Agreda on the life of the Blessed Virgin Mary. All truth in these four large volumes not some second hand made protestant movie like the nativity.

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    Michael:
    Pope John Paul II did call a team of Marian theologians to study the suitablity of the “co-redemptrix” title for Mary as as many as over a million people petitioned for it?
    The team assesed as unsuitable and unacceptable as Jesus is sole redeemer and to place Mary as co-redeemer would imply that if at anytime Jesus “failed” Mary would take over??? as seen in the role of perhaps a co-pilot, only in this instance it would imply that Mary was a goddess which is surely not our Catholic understanding.

    NB: There are other titles,[which we will not go into here] accumulated over the years, attributed to Mary that have been removed as they rightly belong to Jesus…

    Blessings…
    Judy

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    pbwy: “advocating the lesser of evils” “undermined by a feminist agenda”

    I think this response smacks of judgements that are uncalled for… the Church is so wonderful in her openness and sensitivity to her people that it is and difficult to understand this narrow mindedness? But perhaps not… from a male, patriarchal standpoint.

    “If they were really treating this story”?? you said…

    If not the Nativity story, what are they treating then? Would you be implying that the movie was meant to promote evil?? Your statments are sadly creating an unnecessary confusion.

    Blessings
    Judy

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    I respectfully disagree that Mary “broke the curse” regarding pain during
    birth, as this curse still afflicts women today. It is more accurate to
    say that Mary, who was uniquely sinless by the grace of God, did not suffer
    from the stain of original sin.

    And for those who see Father’s words as meddlesome, hierarchical, assuming,
    insulting, or pedantic, two things: 1) You must better learn to respect
    your holy priests — some of what I’ve read here is troublesome to me,
    regarding this point. 2) It is the Church’s role to know and to speak about
    the theological underpinnings of our faith. It is the role of laity to do
    the same. So, theological discussions in the ‘open press’ on Catholic
    journals have just as much relevance as the predominant, lighter faire one
    typically reads.

    Also: It is interesting to learn about some of the background of how Mary
    was formally declared sinless by the Catholic Church. It was declared
    dogma of the church through papal decree in 1869; after many years of belief
    on this point, and many years of theological discussion. The theological
    thinking could be summarized as thus:

    Jesus the Christ could not Himself be in any way sinful — not even could
    He suffer from the original sin of His parents. Therefore, it follows that
    His parents — the Holy Spirit and the Blessed Virgin Mary — also had to
    be sinless. Once Mary was solemnly defined to be sinless, all of the rest
    of the theology must follow — painless birth, etc., etc. This is how the
    Church “knows” these details, for it is impossible for it to be otherwise.
    If you’re still in doubt, consider the alternative. If Mary was sinful,
    as reflected in this movie through the depiction of a painful birth, then
    Jesus the Christ would have to be sinful, at least until his baptism in the
    river Jordan. This cannot be true, because then one would have to admit
    that for 30 years or so, God Himself was sinful. This is impossible, for
    then God would not be God. The prophets throughout the Old and New Testaments
    were all shown to be sinful in one way or another. Adam disobeyed God in the
    Garden of Eden; Moses disobeyed God by striking the rock twice; Peter denied
    Jesus three times during His tribunal. The rest of the Apostles had already
    fled, and left their Savior behind.

    Hope this helps someone,

    Alpin

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    Judy:

    Could you please provide the name or a link to the document denying the title? My understanding was that they tabled action on a pronouncement so I’d like to review the material if you could provide further info.

    Michael

    “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried”

    “The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.” – GK Chesterton

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    I disagree that the movie portrayed a “painful” birth that somehow denied the sinlessness of Mary. The movie did portray Mary as being “in labor”–perhaps making some noises that some people perceived as a sign of it being painful. I didn’t take it that way at all. Having delivered five babies myself–without any drugs–I know that labor is hard work. Some of my deliveries were very painful, but at least one was not–and I am certainly NOT sinless, that’s for sure! But, even a painless birth is still hard work (that’s why it’s called labor) and might elicit noises or grimaces–much in the same way that a weightlifter groans & grimaces to lift a heavy weight without being “in pain”. Mary was born without original sin, but she was a human woman who became the mother of God through the birth of Jesus. Mary’s humble submission to God’s will in spite of the difficulties and discomforts that it might entail for her (lying in straw has got to be uncomfortable no matter what), is the message that I saw in this movie. And, whether it was good cinema or not, I am still glad that there was at least one offering from “popular culture” that acknowledged the real Christmas story. BTW, merry Christmas to all….and to all, a good night! Thank you for the lively & thought provoking discussion.

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    Michael: The following webpage is not the best on the topic but the closest i found… My information comes from a theologian who teaches Mariology at a Jesuit university

    I hope this helps…

    http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1058/is_n26_v114/ai_19905220

    “May the Christ-Child bring Love, Joy and Hope to all people of goodwill”

    Have a very Blessed and Holy Christmas!
    Judy

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    wrong entry

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    However –

    The Lady, Queen and Mother is about to commemorate the birth of All Goodness, her Divine Infant Son, again, in but hours. Get thee to thy convent – home with beloved – and pray that you are the first shepherd into that cave.

    Later, another cave will be empty of Him for a whole other reason, and we’ll have missed this time when we could see Him.

    Make a note for-to-ask in heaven:
    Of Christ, our King: Did Mom suffer in labor?
    Of our Blessed Mother: What does your Son know about it? He was only a little Kid, at the time.

    Fare thee well until Saint Stephen’s day,
    from Prissy Sap –
    may your Christmas be so blessed the Star’s light is in your eyes.

    You and yours have my love, as my prayers.

    I remain your obedient servant, but God’s first,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @mail.catholicexchange.com or …yahoo.com)

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    +J.M.J+

    Judy writes:
    >>>Thank God for Vatican II that has opened the doors to fulness of life that God gave the world in Creation and in the wonders of the the pangs [pain] of childbirth.

    Vatican II did not teach that Mary suffered birth pangs. In fact, it taught that Mary remained an intact virgin in childbirth. Lumen Gentium, Vatican II’s Dogmatic Constitution on the Church, proclaims: “This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest… also at the birth of Our Lord, who did not diminish His mother’s virginal integrity but sanctified it” (57).
    (“Virginal integrity” refers to physical intactness)

    A footnote on this passage cites decree of the Lateran Council (649 AD) which declared:

    “If anyone does not in accord with the Holy Fathers acknowledge the holy and ever virgin and immaculate Mary was really and truly the Mother of God, inasmuch as she, in the fullness of time, and without seed, conceived by the Holy Spirit, God in the Word Himself, who before all time was born of God the Father, and without loss of integrity brought Him forth, and after His birth preserved her virginity inviolate, let him be condemned.”

    In a General Audience of Jan 28, 1987, Pope John Paul II favorably cited the Lateran Council on this point:

    “Mary was therefore a virgin before the birth of Jesus and she remained a virgin in giving birth and after the birth. This is the truth presented by the New Testament texts, and which was expressed both by the Fifth Ecumenical Council at Constantinople in 553, which speaks of Mary as ‘ever virgin’, and also by the Lateran Council in 649, which teaches that ‘the mother of God…Mary…conceived [her Son] through the power of the Holy Spirit without human intervention, and in giving birth to him, her virginity remained incorrupted, and even after the birth her virginity remained intact.”

    Also, on June 10, 1992, during a talk in Capua, Italy, he further stated:

    “It is a well-known fact that some of the Church Fathers set us a significant parallel between the begetting of Christ ex intacta virgine [from the inviolate Virgin] and his resurrection ex intacto sepulcro [from the sealed tomb]. In the parallelism relative to the begetting of Christ, some of the Fathers put the emphasis on the virginal conception, others on the virgin birth, others on the subsequent perpetual virginity of the Mother, but they all testify to the conviction that between the two saving events – the generation–birth of Christ and his resurrection from the dead – there exists an intrinsic connection which corresponds to a precise plan of God: a connection which the Church led by the Spirit, has discovered, not created.

    …[I]t is necessary for the theologian, in presenting the Church’s doctrine on Mary’s virginity to maintain the indispensable balance between stating the fact and elucidating its meaning. Both are integral parts of the mystery: the meaning, or symbolic value of the event is based on the reality of the fact, and the latter, in turn, reveals all its richness only if its symbolic meanings are unfolded.”

    So the “postconciliar” Church has certainly not repudiated the age-old Catholic belief that Mary remained an intact virgin during a painless childbirth. For more information see: http://home.earthlink.net/~mysticalrose/virginityinpartu.htm

    In Jesu et Maria,
    Rosemarie

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    Judy:

    Thanks for the link. I, too, think that significant caution should be exercised in providing Mary with dogmatic titles, not from an ecumenical standpoint, though, but because, to date, all Marian dogma refer to the nature of Christ in a way that the title Co-Redemptrix seems to miss. That the title is not dogmatic, however, does not mean that it cannot be stated as a matter of personal piety, clearly understood.

    Michael

    “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried”

    “The poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese.” – GK Chesterton

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    Michael:
    Personal piety was never a problem… it’s when personal piety gets touted as truth that the difficulty begins and creates misunderstanding.

    Rosemarie:
    Yes, i believe in the teaching of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary but it does not nec. mean she did not go through labour pains… Miracles happen… as in the case of the Annunciation. We could also ask why did Mary have to carry Jesus for 9months as in any ordinary pregnancy? [the Church celebrates the Annunciation and 9mths later the birth?] the Scriptures really do not give us clear answers, neither does the Church about all aspects… and some things happen naturally. Vatican II opened the doors for us to also appreciate nature and the natural ways of God coming to us… is what i was trying to say in my comment. God-with-us.

    NB: The title mystical rose for Mary has also been disapproved by Rome.

    God bless.. May God’s Spirit guide each one this New Year.

    Judy

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    Judy,

    You have accused me of being judgmental. Please go back and read my post again. I said it would be *like* choosing the lesser of evils. I did not say it *was* the lesser of evils. I was trying to use this axiom to point out that it is a less than ideal choice. It would be better if you had called me an idealist or a dreamer, or just plain impractical. But judgmental simply does not fit. Yes, I did mean that the moments of beauty in the film were undermined by a feminist agenda. I believe this means I am practicing good discernment for recognizing it. Or are you saying I am narrow minded because I do not fully embrace Feminism?! If my comments are confusing people I apologize to everyone. Allow me to point out that the movie itself is a confused work. I enjoyed it at times but overall I did not like that modernist points of view were superimposed over the biblical account and produced a pseudo-historical, although ascetically beautiful, story.

    mom of 5,
    Again you bring up a good point. This time I will validate it. In this movie Mary’s groaning was brief and seemed natural even in light of the dogma of her sinlessness. I consider the way Mary spoke to her father (among other scenes) in this movie a greater contradiction to her sinlessness than the birth scene.

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    pbwy:
    While I think the movie was rather good, given that Scriptures were written with mininmum discription, judgemental was perhaps too strong a word, my apologies. Fact is… it is a movie not dogma.

    Pax!
    Judy

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    Judy,

    Thank you for your apology… accepted. Fact is… that it is a movie which expresses if not teaches (indoctrinates) something. What that something is, is no accident but reflects considerable contemplation. That makes it deliberate… perhaps deliberately not dogma.

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