Catholic Exchange

Just Exactly Where is the Church?

Unam Sanctam is the sort of document that gives our Protestant brothers and sisters a real jolt, primarily because it looks at first blush as though it teaches that Catholics cannot have Protestant brothers and sisters. Written by Pope Boniface VIII in 1302, this papal bull concludes with this shocking dogmatic definition:

"We declare, say, define and pronounce, that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff."

The average modern reader concludes these words mean: "We know exactly where the Church both is and is not. It's in the visible Catholic communion and only members of the visible Catholic Church go to Heaven." After this basic assumption has been made, most people go on to assume it is simply a matter of deciding what you think about that proposition. Generally, people fall into one of the following groups:

1. Those nice people who say hopefully, "That statement was not dogma, but just Boniface's opinion."

2. Those Progressive Dissenting Catholics who say, "That statement used to be narrow-minded Catholic dogma but Vatican II thankfully contradicts all that. How the Church has grown!"

3. Those anti-Catholics who say derisively, "That statement used to be unbiblical Catholic dogma but Vatican II reversed all that. How the supposedly infallible Church has flatly contradicted the Bible and itself!"

4. Those Reactionary Dissenting Catholics who say, "That statement used to be glorious Catholic dogma but Vatican II betrayed all that. How the Second Vatican Council has corrupted the One True Faith!"

5. Those orthodox Catholics who say, "Unam Sanctam's definition is still dogma and the teaching of the Second Vatican Council does not contradict it or the Bible. Rather, the Council develops the Faith of the Church infallibly taught since the apostles, a faith which has never demanded we believe that "The Church is found solely in the visible Catholic communion, nor that only members of the visible Catholic Church can go to Heaven."

Let's look at these five views of Unam Sanctam.

First things first, I must disappoint Group #1 by making clear that the Faith does not allow us the easy out of denying the dogmatic nature of Unam Sanctam any more than it allowed Arius to fudge the difficult and seemingly contradictory proposition that God is One, yet Three. As John Hardon, S.J. points out in his Catholic Catechism, the passage cited above was "solemnly defined and represents traditional Catholic dogma on the Church's necessity for salvation." When a Pope declares, pronounces and defines, he is using the formula to make crystal clear that he is delivering, not his personal opinion, but the dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church. The fact is then, Pope Boniface VIII committed the Church to this proposition for the rest of her history. We cannot dodge this with a convenient "that was then, this is now." If it was dogma once, it still is.

However, neither can we dodge another fact of Catholic history: the Second Vatican Council. At that Council, the Church formulated Lumen Gentium in which, 660 years after Unam Sanctam, she declared, "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."

 To Groups 2, 3, and 4, this sounds like a flat contradiction. For all these folk make the fatal error of placing one or other of the Church's teachings in opposition to (and superiority over) the other. Thus, Progressive Dissenting Catholics, Anti-Catholics, and Reactionary Dissenting Catholics all assume that Unam Sanctam was simply vetoed by a newly-coined doctrine in Lumen Gentium which essentially declared that our relationship to the successor of Peter doesn't matter one iota. If we agree about this, all that remains for us to do is to decide whether to cheer along with Progressive Dissenters (for the Church's "deepened maturity") to gloat along with anti-Catholics (over the alleged collapse of the Church's infallibility) or to grumble along with Reactionary Dissenters (about those damned modernists who hijacked the Church at Vatican II).

The problem with this assumption is simply this: it's not true. First, the Church, centuries before Vatican II, regarded Orthodox sacraments as valid, which is awfully hard to do if you don't think Christ can be found anywhere but in the Catholic Church. Similarly, it has always regarded the Baptism of non-Catholics as valid — and a valid Baptism means you are, in some sense, in union with Christ. Still more recently and most plainly, (but still well before the Council) Fr. Leonard Feeney was excommunicated for insisting that only people in visible communion with the Catholic Church could be saved. So this simplistic "We're in, you're out" reading of Unam Sanctam (and the corollary that Lumen Gentium "cancelled" it) doesn't fly.

So is there a more balanced picture that reverences both Unam Sanctam and Lumen Gentium as authentic magisterial teaching? Yes. To find it, let's begin with an imperfect analogy.

There is a priest I know (call him Fr. Smith) whom I have come to regard as a second father. I came to do so because, as an Evangelical, I first loved Christ and the things of Christ and was doing so for years before I met this man. As I sought to draw closer to the things of Christ, I then happened to meet Fr. Smith and to discover that he loved and understood far more deeply than me the things that I myself sought, for he is a disciple of our Lord too. When I recognized this, I realized our Lord had put into my life a man who could disciple me and to whom my life was inextricably linked in Christ and by Christ. In short, I had been a disciple of Fr. Smith for years before I met him — because I was first a disciple of Jesus.

Thus, in spirit, Fr. Smith became my father and I am, so to speak, subject to him in Christ precisely because I desire what he desires — union with Christ.

If this seems difficult to grasp, it should be noted that it's a concept as old as the New Testament. For when we look there we discover Jesus saying exactly the same thing:

John said to him, "Teacher, we saw a man casting out demons in your name, and we forbade him, because he was not following us." But Jesus said, "Do not forbid him; for no one who does a mighty work in my name will be able soon after to speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is for us (Mark 9:38-40).

Jesus' point is that, in following Him, both the man casting out demons and the apostles were, whether the man or the apostles realized it or not, brought into some kind of union with one another through Him. It didn't matter whether the apostles or the man were conscious of it. Their mutual obedience to Him put them in relationship to each other, just as the right alignment of spokes to a hub necessarily put the spokes in right alignment to one another. The fact is, it is His Spirit, not us, Who is the principle of unity holding His Body together and drawing its members into ever more perfect union with each other. But that does not mean (as I had long believed as an Evangelical) that unity with the Body of Christ doesn't matter so long as one is "spiritual". For to be brought into union with the Body of Christ at all is to brought into the order that Christ has established for that Body since

his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ (Ephesians 4:11-13).

Or, to put it into the simplest form, if A=B, then B=A. That is, if one is a Christian at all, one is, as Lumen Gentium says, in some kind of union with the Church, the Body of Christ. This is why the Church teaches and has always taught that "outside the Church, there is no salvation". For the Church is the company of the saved. To talk about salvation "outside the Church" is like talking about swimming outside the water. It is the logical consequence of Jesus' statement, "He who is not with me is against me" (Matthew 12:30).

It therefore follows that to be subject to the gospel to any degree is to be in union, to that degree, with the office of Peter since the office of Peter was created by Christ for one purpose only, to help bring people into subjection to Christ. It is therefore impossible to accept Christ without accepting the authority of Peter's office to some degree or other. If you say to Jesus, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" you are submitting to the judgment of Peter, who said it first (Matthew 16:16). If you declare that salvation is by grace through Christ, you are again subjecting yourself to Peter, who was the first to say that by the Holy Spirit (Acts 15:11). If you teach that Jesus is the second person of the Blessed Trinity, God from God, light from Light, true God from true God, you are simply agreeing with what the Church in council and in union with the office of Peter has always taught. If you acknowledge the canonicity of the New Testament books, you are likewise submitting to the judgment of the Petrine office, which made that call in the fourth century and ratified it in the sixteenth. In short, it is not possible to be a Christian at all without already submitting (whether you realize it or not and whether you like it or not) to Peter in precisely the sense that Unam Sanctam speaks of.

Naturally, it will be noted that such union with the Roman Pontiff is, for Protestants and Orthodox, imperfect. Just so. But the point nonetheless holds that such union is real. And the reason it is real is precisely because the Pope is not the principle of unity, but merely the sign of unity. The principle of unity is the Spirit of Christ Himself. It is He Who binds together the apostolic Church with those who appear (like the exorcist in Mark) to be "outside" the Church yet who are, in a real but imperfect way, in communion with her. That's because it is simply not possible for there to be more than one Body. This is true, not because the power-hungry Roman pontiff must have absolute control over all Christians, but because Christ cannot ultimately be divided. What Paul said in Ephesians remains just as true today:

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all (Ephesians 4:4-6).

So it is simply impossible for there to be, in any ultimate sense, more than one Body. And since that Body is, by Christ's solemn word, founded on Peter the Rock, it is not possible to belong to it without, in some way, being subject to the office of the one who was given the charge to "feed my sheep" (John 21:15-19).

I say the office, mind you, not the person of the Pope. As a person, a Pope can be a perfect jerk and some have been. In the same way, the office of the Davidic monarch (also founded by God) was often filled by extremely sub-optimal men. But the office never went away nor lost its God-ordained authority.

Dante, a contemporary of the man who wrote Unam Sanctam, makes precisely this point in his famous Divine Comedy. In an age of Da Vinci Code illiteracy and ignorance of the Catholic faith, it comes as a surprise to many modern readers to discover that so far from running a police state, the medieval Church was, in fact, full of critics who had lots of tart things to say about, among other things, the Pope and other clergy of the time. Dante was chief among these critics in his day and, in particular, was chief among the critics of Pope Boniface VIII, the author of Unam Sanctam. Dante, in fact, places Boniface in his Inferno, damned forever. But note this: Dante does not damn him for the teaching of Unam Sanctam, which he takes for granted. He damns him for his moral corruption yet, like a typical Catholic, honors his office. That's why Boniface is buried upside down in hell: as Pope he is oriented toward Heaven even when, as a sinner, he is worthy of Hell, for the way out of Dante's Hell is not up but down, through the center of the earth, then up Mt. Purgatory, and into Paradise.

So is this partial and imperfect unity enough? Depends on what you mean by "enough". If you mean "enough to be saved" then I submit this is Minimum Daily Adult Requirement thinking. No lover asks "What's the absolute bare minimum amount of contact with my Beloved I can get away with?" Similarly, if, as the Church claims, the fullness of revelation subsists in the Catholic communion, then "How little contact with the fullness of revelation can I get away with?" is the exact wrong question for somebody who is serious about discipleship to Christ. Our goal, according to Scripture, is not to achieve bare minimums of love, fellowship and discipleship with Christ and His Bride, but to "attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ;… we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by every joint with which it is supplied, when each part is working properly, makes bodily growth and upbuilds itself in love" (Ephesians 4:13-16). When people tell us "I'll be there in spirit!" we know they mean "I won't be there." Similarly, a merely partial spiritual unity, while a good start, is a bad finish. That is why we must all continue to work toward full unity in Christ, neither denying our commonalities nor papering over our differences.

At this point, members of groups 3 and 4 (who tend to take Heaven more seriously as something that is, like, there and not simply — as members of group 2 are wont to say — a "concept" or a "beautiful myth") are likely to ask, "So does all this boil down to saying the Church thinks Catholics are going to Heaven and non-Catholics aren't? Or does it really mean the Church is now saying that everybody is saved?"

Again, both of these are the wrong questions: which is to say they are nonsense questions. The Church makes no comments on infernal population statistics. Rather, the Church teaches that because validly baptized non-Catholics are real members of the Body of Christ, they share in the life of the Blessed Trinity and therefore share with Catholics the Hope of salvation.

That said, mark that it is Hope, not certainty, they share with Catholics. For it is important to remember that Catholics don't even assume that Catholics are automatically going to Heaven. The whole point, as Paul says, is that Hope means we have not yet, in this life, attained what we hope for.

For in this hope we were saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience (Romans 8:24-25).

Catholics don't believe in "once saved, always saved" any more than in salvation by demographics. So the mere fact that somebody says they are a Christian, whether non-Catholic or Catholic, doesn't mean we assume they are going to Heaven. Till we die, we retain the radical freedom to reject the grace of God and end up among the damned. So Catholics leave God to judge all that.

But by the same token, Catholics also don't assume that anybody (even a non-Christian and indeed even an atheist) is going to Hell. The Church has always believed that those who do not know Christ by name may yet respond to the promptings of His Spirit and so ultimately be saved by Him. She believes this because it was taught by Jesus Christ in the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats, which describes the judgment of people who had no idea they were serving (or rejecting) Jesus as they answered (or refused) the demands of conscience with respect to "the least of these". That is why both the saved and the damned in the parable reply with astonishment to the King, "Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?" (Matthew 25:37-39). Some of the saved, says our Lord, are going to be astonished at their salvation. They just thought they were doing the right thing and had no idea they were, in fact, answering the prompting of the Holy Spirit to obey the will of Christ. As Paul says, "When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus" (Romans 2:14-16). In short, what matters incomparably more than calling Jesus "Lord, Lord" is obeying Him. Or as St. John of the Cross put it more sweetly, "At the evening of life, we shall be judged on our love."

But,again, that doesn't mean, "It doesn't matter if you are Catholic or not." We live in a fallen world and are fallen creatures who need every bit of help we can get from the grace of God to become the glorious love-filled creatures God calls us to be. And even with that help, history demonstrates our genius for being schleps and sinners. We are like patients in a hospital requiring intensive care, but with the hope and promise that the full panoply of modern medicine could give us back our life if we cooperate with the Divine Physician and let Him use all the treatments He has tucked away in His little black bag. That little black bag is called "the fullness of Christ's revelation in the Catholic communion". It includes the common life, common worship, and common teaching of the Church, including the seven sacraments, the accumulated wisdom of the Tradition both in Scripture and in the life of the Church, the Magisterium (including the Papacy), and the "riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints" (Ephesians 1:18). Other Churches and ecclesial bodies like to use various items out of that black bag (say, the Bible, or Baptism, or the doctrine of the Trinity, or some particular moral teaching like the indissolubility of marriage, or predestination, or free will) in various combinations and to varying degrees and believers do well to avail themselves of as much of God's treasury in the Church's Tradition as they can lay hold of.

But if you are mortally ill (and the whole human race is mortally ill with sin), it's kind of crazy to say "I find that I'm most comfortable when the Doctor prescribes aspirin, and I do like his penicillin now and then, but I don't want his other prescriptions and treatments and I won't allow him to send other hospital staff to treat me." If we were mortally ill, we'd want whatever the Doctor has available to heal us.

Likewise, though the Catholic Church rejoices that real elements of the saving gospel are present and working in other churches and ecclesial bodies, though she even rejoices that the semina verbi or "seeds of the Word" can even be found in the various non-Christian religious and philosophical traditions of the world, she nonetheless points out that the best thing of all is to lay hold of the fullness of His gifts. So the Church, of course, encourages anyone who can do so to become Catholic. It doesn't presume to judge those who do not, for we mortals cannot know the reasons why others make the choices they do. People may refuse the Church out of ignorance, or woundedness, or some other cause that renders them inculpable for rejecting her. However, it is only sensible to point out that, everything else being equal, if we say we want God, but refuse the fullness of His gifts, then it is worth asking ourselves if we really want God after all or are, in fact, seeking something else.

As an Evangelical who discovered how much truth was in the Catholic faith and how much I agreed with it, I came to the realization that it was not enough for me to say "I share the same goals as Peter, so I am 'spiritually subject' to him already and do not need to be sacramentally and ecclesially subject as well." I realized that the very essence of what Peter proclaims is that the Word became Flesh. Moreover, I came to realize that there was, in fact, nothing in the Church's deposit of Faith that was either opposed to reason, nor anti-biblical. So I eventually concluded that it was therefore my duty, in obedience to Christ's prayer for unity in John 17, to enflesh my faith by becoming really, tangibly, physically, sacramentally joined to the visible Church our Lord commended to Peter's care and feeding. For myself, I could no longer say "I'll be with you in spirit" to the Pope if I was not also willing to really be with him in body as well.

Catholics do not say, and never have said, that they are the sole possessors of revelation. Indeed, the Church does not "possess" revelation at all. Revelation possesses her and that revelation, who is Christ, has (she teaches) committed Himself fully to her. "God," said the great Protestant writer George MacDonald, "is easy to please, but hard to satisfy." On the one hand, God is delighted when the most miserable sinner takes the smallest serious step toward the love of God and neighbor. On the other hand, He will not be completely happy until every last person He came to save is completely perfected in the image of Christ and overflowing with perfect love for God and neighbor. This same pattern is supremely evident in the Catholic Church's understanding of her relationship with her members, whether in full or very imperfect communion. For the Church is happy to recognize even the smallest commonalities she may share, not only with other Christians, but even with non-Christian religious traditions and the great philosophical traditions of paganism. The Church can even find things to affirm in virtuous atheists. But at the same time, the Church is acutely aware that there is a real difference between imperfect and perfect unity and so she too — easy to please, but hard to satisfy — labors toward that Day when all the members of the Body of Christ will be perfected in faith, hope and love.

Till That Day, we know where the Church is; we do not know where it is not.

Comments

111 responses to “Just Exactly Where is the Church?”

  1. Guest Avatar
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    God loves you .

    Magnificent . . . thank you, Mr. Shea and Catholic Exchange.

    Remember, I love you, too .

    In our delighted glory in our Infant King,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or … yahoo.com)

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    Great article! I love "Catholics do not say, and never have said, that they are the sole possessors of revelation. Indeed, the Church does not "possess" revelation at all. Revelation possesses her" especially as it is something as a convert to Catholicism through reading Vatican II documents,but not a great communicator, I have never had the tools to express. By, the way my traditional friends are astonished to hear about the evangelical power of LG.

    However, my loyalty to the same friends makes me want to add the correction that Fr. Feeney was excommunicated for disobedience to Rome for not answering a summons to discuss the scandal he had contributed to in the diocese of Boston by assisting in the conversion of several heirs of big whig Protestant families. The excommunication was also lifted without him ever being required to change the emphasis in his ministry of the neccesity of salvation being through the Catholic Church, which is of course what LG itself also states. Remember also that Fr Feeney was outspoken against the heresy of modernism that was also not appreciated by the Diocese of Boston at the time., 1960's.

    Without the welcome that LG gave to me by recognizing my link to the body of Christ I would perhaps not had the courage to continue to follow the Holy Spirit into my home, The Roman Catholic Church.

    I enjoy your articles much more than I have the time to say, there are four homeschooling children clamoring for attention right now in various, not all positive , ways!!!

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    another cite to add to my ever-growing Mark Shea library –best explanation I have ever seen. Also makes the point that it is with, in and through Jesus Christ that we have unity, and to hold any of the 1st four positions is to assume, and to act, as if it is somehow the unilateral action of the individual, the congregation, or the denomination that brings this communion into being. this if course is the foundation of liberal dissent in the modern Catholic Church, particular with regard to abuses in the Mass, but also infects dissent of every shape, size and color.

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    I ask the following question on this discussion.

     

    Given that we are not going to resolve theological issues like the Apostolic Succession, among others-and please, it may be settled for the Catholics on here but it is not for millions of Protetants like me-what about the following scenario.

     

    A person is born, grows up not in Catholicism but in a Protestant body like Methodism or Baptist.  They make a profession of faith and are baptized and seek to live a Christian life.  Throughout that life they engage in many works for God, i.e., prayer, Bible study, mission trips, donating money to charitable causes, so forth.  Later in life they study Catholicism, for whatever reason, and yet the continue to be a Protestant.  They have Catholic friends, recognize that Catholicism is not the "enemy" and ignore a great many negative media representations of the Church.  However, they maintain a dedicated focus of their "Protestant Christianity," what then?

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    To paraphrase a popular conservative talk show host – You're a great Catholic!

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    Joseph, that depends upon the reason why the person continues as a Protestant. He might not recognize that the Catholic Church is the Church started by Christ regardless of his studies. If he truly does not understand, it is not a sin for him that he did join the Church.

    However, as with any objective sin (and refusing to join Christ's Church is objectively a sin) there are both degrees of culpability and the possiblity of self-deception.

    He may say that the Catholic arguments did not persuade him when actually the problem is that he was too proud to admit his error, or too afraid of what others would say, or he was holding on to some advantage or position with the his Protestant community and he put his desire for that above his obedience to Christ.

    Now all these are matters of the heart that will be judged by God; they are not things that any human being can truly know unless someone blatantly says (for example), "I know the Cathlic Church is the true Church founded by Christ, but I don't want to disturb my family by converting."  Even then the person is going to be judged by God, not by us, although we certainly would encourage that person to take Jesus' words about how our loves are to be ordered to heart.

    Here isthe real crux of the matter given your example of someone who loves Christ and seeks to live for Him outside of the Catholic Church: all of the graces that he experiences (and they are real graces) are being poured into this world upon Catholic altars through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Were the Mass to cease, all Protestant soul-winning would also cease.  Protestants come to saving faith in Christ because the Catholic Church (and Orthodox, since they also have the true Eucharist) prays for them. 

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    Joseph…  they are probably more "Catholic" than many Catholics.  But as a member of the family, they still prefer to camp out in the back yard, so to speak.  Thankfully their focus is on God.

    In God's time, they will rejoin the family and take use and advantage of all the family offers inside the home.  Perhaps that will not come until the next life.  Still they must persevere to the end, just as those in the home must.

    Stained glass is thought provoking to all who pass by a church.   But it is far more glorious and instructive from the inside.

    After more than 60 years I have come to believe that one only leaves or remains outside the Church because one does not understand (or has not been really taught) what the Church offers.  Prime among those "offerings" is the Eucharist….. found no where in the "back yard".  That is also why only the Catholic Church is "church".   All others are simply faith communities.

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    Joseph I know in the forum you have asked these same questions or similar ones.  I'm not going to say the answer is….but rather say the answer you are seeking is in the article I do believe.  Read it as you would drink a fine wine.  Taste it, savor it, and reflect on the wonderful bouquet.

    Mr Shea once again your articles are much inspiring as they are explanatory.  And your website is wonderful also.

     

    Tarheel. 

     

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    wow wow wow what a most excellently article it's like a candle was lit in my mind.

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    "Protestants come to saving faith in Christ because the Catholic Church…prays for them."  I cannot agree with that statement but it is always good to have others praying for you- Wink.

     

    I have real and serious concerns over certain issues of faith and while I know my "Baptist run off at the mouth ways," can elicit more than I need in repsonses, truly I am only seeking inquiry and discussion about those matters of faith.  It is as I have said, in my studies, so to speak, is where my concerns and questions originate, never to attack or demean.

     

    I will make this statment which may sound ludicrous but here goes anyhow.  Like other Southern Baptists, I have my personal opinion over how much "authority" was given to Peter within  those "keys."  However, since one day I seek to be in Paradise, and knowing that ultimately God will truly be the final arbiter of all of it, I do not wish to run off at the  mouth about the Vicar of Christ in the here and now only to look across at him in Paradise, and him wearing a smile of gee, imagine who is here?  Thus, my disagreements and questions are all about faith, not attacks or demeaning of anyone's office.

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    mkochan – "Protestants come to saving faith in Christ because the Catholic Church (and Orthodox, since they also have the true Eucharist) prays for them. "

    Mary, does the Catechism say that? I believe Ephesians 2 verse 8 which says: For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not from you; it is the gift of God.

     

    I didn't see the ^ above comment when I wrote this Smile

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    The problem is very simple Joseph — what gives you the authority to interpret scripture in a manner that is at odds with the apostolic deposit of faith universally held by Christians for the first millenia and by the majority of Christians to this day? What arrogant gene causes you to decide that your personal opinon is more to be relied on than the authority of the Church Christ established? How are you any better than Arius who thought his personal opinion about the diety of Christ was more to be trusted than that of the Church in union with Peter? Where, man, is your fear of the Lord?

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    How does that grace come intothe world, Zephyr?

    Does it float down from the sky?

    No, the Church teaches that it comes by the sacraments — the summit of which is the Eucharist.  At the Mass, we pray for "all those who have left the world in God's friendship" and for "all who the Son has gained for the Father" and "for all those whose faith is known only to [God]". Those prayers are effective. Without them and without the sacrifice that makes Christ's salvation availble in our time, no one in the world would be saved. That is why one of the saints said that it was more important that the Mass be offered than that the sun rose.

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    Reply to mkochan,

     

    First, let me state that this discussion is not about me and what I can intrepret.

     

    Second, when a person reads the Scripture with their own two eyes and sees what is a clear contradiction then seeking clarification on it is not challenging anything.  The fact that millions of believers in Catholicism want to take what is told to them is their right but I am compelled to know the truth and when I see a contradiction of what is in Scripture versus Tradition, then I have a duty to find out what is going on and why.  Nothing more, nothing less.

     

    Third, the questions that I ask are like millions before me have asked and the response of not aswering the question is why Protestants like me, refer to "rote answers" that do more to defend the Magisterium and the like than deal with the matter of faith at hand.  Asking me about some "arrogant gene" or how I am "any better than Arius," is nothing but a smoke screen rote answer that does not want to address the question of the day and detours from my inquiry into a rant over what kind of person and/or believer I am so that a denounciation can occur without ever asnwering the question(s) that were posed by me.

     

    Fourth, my fear of the Lord is predicated upon what I read in the Scripture and how I am called to grow in my daily walk with the Lord. 

     

    You know, I often wonder how the Doubting Thomas would fair in today's world of Catholicism?Surprised

     

    Joseph Bailey 

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    "How does that grace come intothe world, Zephyr?

    Does it float down from the sky?"

    Jesus saves us through His grace which is freely given. No man can say or do anything to earn it for themselves or others. IT'S FREE

     

    Prayers are effective if God decides they will be. They certainly don't hurt. 

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    John6:40 "For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."
       It sounds like Jesus is saying all we have to do is believe in Him to be saved. BUT what does it mean to believe? Do we need to believe everything Jesus said?

    Jesus also said

    JOhn 6:51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world."
    52 The Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us (his) flesh to eat?"
    53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

    The Eucharist, the flesh of the Son of Man, is only found in the fullness of the Catholic Church. Believing in Jesus means we believe in everything Jesus said, not just what we find easy to follow.

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    The last time I ate the flesh and drank the blood of Christ, many people who did the same walked right out the door after having done so – leaving the pews in front of, beside, and behind me empty.

    There is a difference between being 'saved' and having 'life' in you. Indeed, not everyone who partakes in the Eucharist and blood of Christ is necessarily saved or has life in them. 

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    Zephyr, that is a great point.  It drives me crazy when Catholics show such a blatant disregard for the Eucharist that they leave right after Communion, like they just went to the drive-thru or something.  What kind of witness is this to our Protestant brothers and sisters?

     

    Speaking of which:  Joseph, I don't think you're being arrogant at all, and I think it's great that you ask questions and participate in respectful dialogue in a Catholic setting.  And certainly, if you perceive a contradiction between scripture and tradition, there's nothing wrong with asking about that.  Our acceptance of Church dogma and doctrine is based on the fact that every individual who reads scripture can potentially interpret it differently, so we believe that we were given a deposit of faith to be an authority when it comes to interpretation.  This doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with questioning and asking for an explanation when you perceive a discrepancy.

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    In general I agree with what Mr. Shea is saying here, but I think he takes the document a little bit out of context. The Bull means subject to the Pope in the most literal sense, not in the inclusive spiritual sense that Mr. Shea gives of "everybody is subject to Peter in some way."

    For example, in reference to the Greeks, the same Bull declares that:

    "if the Greeks or others should say that they are not confided to Peter and to his successors, they must confess not being the sheep of Christ, since Our Lord says in John 'there is one sheepfold and one shepherd.'" (US, 2nd paragraph)

    Nobody is united with the Catholic Church as much as the Greeks, but here Boniface VIII says that their refusal to acknowledge papal supremacy is alone enough to pu them outside the sheepfold. He goes onto say that willful rejection of the papacy (such as the Protestantas and Orthodox do) constitutes disobedience towards God:

    "This authority, however, (though it has been given to man and is exercised by man), is not human but rather divine, granted to Peter by a divine word and reaffirmed to him (Peter) and his successors by the One Whom Peter confessed, the Lord saying to Peter himself, 'Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven' etc., [Mt 16:19]. Therefore whoever resists this power thus ordained by God, resists the ordinance of God [Rom 13:2]," (US 4th paragraph)

    It is this discussion on the very need for a physical, temporal submission to the papacy (in the context of the temporal-spiritual struggles of the later 13th century) that form the context for the definition: Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

     Now, I happen to agree with the conclusion of Mr. Shea, but I do not agree with the means he uses to get to this conclusion, and I do not think Unam Sanctam provides the basis for this conclusion. This is certainly not how Boniface VIII meant it to be taken, nor does the text itself support Mr. Shea's conclusion. I agree with the final conclusion though: we do not know where the Church is not, but it cannot be supported by this document, which is meant to be taken in a very literal way.

     

    Boniface

    unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com

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    Joseph,
    I understand, to some degree, your doubts. At one time, I shared them. But I see it as only logical to expect God to maintain for us on Earth a clear and visible authority for interpreting His Word and teaching His doctrine, that He will keep from error. I posted my proof here.

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    Joseph — the problem is not with you asking questions.

    You remind me of the bumper stickers so popular on college campuses, "QUESTION AUTHORITY", which always made me want a bumper sticker that said "IF AUTHORITY ANSWERS, WILL YOU LISTEN?"

    It is not true that what you read in Scripture contradicts the Catholic faith (Scripture you would not even have but for the Church)  rather it is your interpretation of Scripture that you are relying on. You are your own pope, your own authority, bypassing the apostles.

    I happen to know what some posters here may not — that you have been asking the same set of questions over and over in the forums. There comes a time when you either accept the answers you are given or admit that you aren't interested in the answers.

    At some point they stop being "innocent questions" and turn into time-wasting game. We understand why you like it here.  We understand very well that there is vigor and intellectual robustness to the Catholic faith that is attractive. There was a time in my life when I was angry at noticing that every time I read something and the intelligence was shimmering off the page that I would find out it was written by a Catholic. At some point there has to be some honesty. There are plenty of converts here who deeply understand the Baptist faith, and Lutheranism, and Calvinism, and Methodism. We know that personal and congregational autonomy is a big cultural construct in certain branches of Protestantism. We understand how hard it is too look at so much you were brought up with and recognize that it was simply in error. You think you have it rough — I was a 3rd generation JW.

    Anyway, Buddy, time to fish or cut bait.

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    God loves you .

    Isn’t Joe fishing? Maybe, he is fishing for just the right thought, or moment, or something.

    But, and Joe can correct me, is Joe not trying to establish the links between our Catholic person(s) and his own Baptist person that makes ‘us’ tick together, SOMEHOW? Is he not trying to be ‘Church’ along with us rather than of any purpose against us?

    That said, Joe, come on Home, man . . . or, if not, forgive us for praying for just that for you.

    Here it is, Advent – look up the Joyful Mysteries of the Rosary, and just focus on our Mother Mary, Mother of God, and Queen of His Church. Joe, try
    here (http://www.ewtn.com/devotionals/prayers/rosary/joyful.htm), or
    here (http://www.rosary-center.org/joyful.htm), or
    here (http://www.circleofprayer.com/joyful-mysteries.html) Who knows what the Spirit, Mary’s Very Spouse, will lead you to do.

    Regardless, it is true . . .

    . . . that I love you, too .

    In our delighted glory in our Infant King,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or … yahoo.com)

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    Joseph, since you have been here and given all the many hours of attention you have gotten from various forum participants, I would like for you to share with us what misconceptions about the Church you had that have been corrected with all this dialogue.

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    Thank you for your explanation.  I wonder why Boniface could not have made it clear to all what he meant.  I am sure you are aware that many Catholics were taught that Unam Sanctam was to be taken literally;  there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church i.e. if you did not belong to the Roman Catholic Church you were not saved. Why should it take so many paragraphs to say what the Pope meant?  So it is not a stretch that many think the church has changed its postion.

     I believe and have shared with others, the principle that Jesus died for ALL humankind and that if one seeks the truth and lives according to the best  guides he finds, that God will judge that person mercifully and grant salvation.  Agree?

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    True, Jesus didn't say "If" you eat my body and blood you will be saved.  Jesus said "Unless" you eat my body and blood you will not have life within you.  (I gues this is why we need a teaching authority in the Church.)

    St. Paul spoke quite elegantly about receiving the Eucharist unworthily. Being "saved" is then a matter of how well we "follow the will of my Father"

     

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    God loves you .

    At base, it is faith in Jesus Christ as demanded by John 3: 14- 18 which is the essential factor. In that faith, we are guided by the Father’s will not primarily to our eternal benefit but for His glory.

    The ultimate will of the Father is to have faith in His Son, our Savior and Redeemer.

    Seeking the truth makes me free, and in freedom I accept the gift of and take faith in Jesus Christ. Amen.

    Remember, I love you, too .

    In our delighted glory in our Infant King,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or … yahoo.com)

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    I was looking at Mother Church from a distance for a spell, having my doubts and studying the Bible and listening to great Protestant preachers. Then I got word of the converts like mkochan and so many others whose tapes I heard on my long commute. The zeal and logic and philosophy they brought back to my life are astounding. There was a time that I thought I knew more than all the church Fathers, saints, bishops and popes who laid their life on the line. I knew more than all the synods and councils and encyclicals and commentaries by great and learned doctors of the Church. Of course I knew more than the Sisters and Monks and Religious who prayed, worked and sacrificed for the one Catholic and Apostolic Faith. Over two Millennia these people didn't know what I knew. Dan Brown thinks the same way. God is very patient with us and allows us to be really silly, even for a long time. Why?

    The answer was given above by mkochan. It’s the Sacrifice of the Mass. Someone is paying our way while we play our adolescent games of pretending that our understanding matches that of Church Tradition. That way is paid on Calvary. I didn’t say WAS, I said – IS. The Sacrifice is, the Mass is. Ite Missa est. “The world is run from the Altar”. I’ll attribute that quote to Scott Hahn but I’m sure others have also said it. If our Salvation was fait accompli than our prayers are pointless. Grace has us all covered and it’s all settled. As this article and comments show, it’s not all settled. There is saving work to be done. “Rise and let’s get going” is the title of a book by another great mystic, philosopher and lover of humanity – JPII. He alone knew more than I’ll ever know.

    .

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    My questions are exactly why that so many non-Catholics have an issue with Cathlolicism and why I have "recovery catholics" as friends (their words NOT MINE).  What Cathloics presume to beat over another's head as dogmatic revelation is for many of us who are Protestants why that such dialogues fail.  Asking questions and stating clearly that there is no attack on Catholicism but a Catholic getting angry that someone would question the almighty Church is why there is rearely dialgoue but instead nothing but am affirmation about how wonderful Roman Catholicism is and what a terrible person it is who cannot share your blessed opinions.  Furthermore, time and time and time again in my experience with lay Catholic believers, this "fish or cut the bait" is exactly what is done when a Catholic is challenged to defend their faith.  It all resorts to personal attacks and finger pointing and all that jazz instead of answering questions.  I come on here, asks questions, that leads to more questions but because I don't make an instant conversion to Catholicism and rip and tear my former "in error" ways of being a Southern Baptist, I am castigated.  I mean, can a Catholic not take the heat of actually discussing the Catholic faith?

     

     

    Joseph Bailey 

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    Also, the assumption that all of this "dialogue" will correct my pitiful Baptist errors and make everything all pretty about Catholicism can hardly be done with the name calling, attacks, and what not that has occured without answers to the questions I asked.  Frankly put, I sit and think, wow, I ask a question about Apostolic Succession from a sincere inquiry (which is another matter-the mouthing off how I have not read something or don't get it or don't have a Catholic Bible is just so immature) about that concept as everything (as I see it at present) about the "authority" of Catholicism stems from that foundation.  Asking questions as someone who is not a Catholic and having my upbringing attacked, my personal faith attacked, saying that I should not be in error now, what in the world does that do to answer a question that for me, is not that easily answered to a non Catholic.  Furthermore, a little news flash here-did it ever occur to some but not all of those who have replied, that their explanantions are no different than what I am being accused of?  I am told that I keep asking the same question, well I do because from a non Catholic standpoint the answers thus far are often so poor/off the mark/all about a personal attack on me instead of answering the question/or just flat out nonsensical that I am still asking so to get at the answer/truth. 

     

    Joseph Bailey 

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    There are several issues that I have but as has often been the case in these posts (not all but most) I have stated that I am not here to attack Catholicism but to ask sincere and biting questions.  I have not been the one to run off at the mouth about "misconceptions" or other such comments wherein it is attributed to me.  Asking a question about Catholic is not, as so aptly done in another post, me staing "false and perjorative statements" about Catholicism.  Many replies here are from a Catholic standpoint from Catholic believers but me asking you to step out of your Catholic box and see it from my perspective is not arrogant, not wrong, not anything but a simple request so that perhaps someone could me an answer without it being some rote-do-as-your-told-to-do reply.

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    I am not bothered or offended that a Catholic would pray that I become a Catholic.  There is a "fishing expedition" going on and I am not here to attack Catholicism but it seems that Catholics are so defensive that they can't handle any serious challenge to the faith that is the "only true faith."  Did it ever occur to all of the rote-answer-Catholics on here that when a Southern Baptist like me reads of an event from this past summer wherein the current Vicar of Christ makes his proclamation (or bull, encyclical, or whatever the right "Catholic" term is so that we can get that right too) that the Catholic Church is the only "true church" that would drive that Southern Baptist to ask questions about it. 

     

     It would because as someone who is not just a Baptist but with my background in general, I find it more than a little fascinating for all of you Pope John II/other Pope lover's out there, that this current Pope used to be the CDF Chief (or whatever the appropriate Catholic title is please) and has spent a lifetime of study, a lifetime of prayer/study/meditation/work on knowing that very thing that this "in error Baptist who should cut his bait" off is asking about: Church authority/history/Apologetics.  Contrary to what many lay Catholics (this is based on MY ACTUAL EXPERIENCE to date so for those of you not like this, MY APOLOGIES) who don't know the first thing about opening their mouth and defending Catholicism will say, I look at the pontificate of Benedict XVI as akin to an actual hand of Providence moment in human history.  Please,  spare me the diatribe of the typical rote-answer-from-a-Catholic about how all Pope's are that because a TRUE STUDENT of history (not what you were taught in some Catholic Bible study) knows full well that whatever the Office of Peter is supposed to be that some Pope's have been nothing more than political hacks.  

     

    So, when I ask my questions and keep asking try answering them, please.

     

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    Joseph, you're on top of it this morning. I've always found your comments to be polite and sincere in tone. We all pick up on something different in your questions and answer accordingly. I'm sure I didn't address most of your question but I tried to get you to look at the big picture, the wealth of time tested knowledge that's out there for every Catholic and non-Catholic to tap into. You'll get a lot of it on this site. For different or similar reasons that's what keeps us here. Keep looking and reading brother, don't be dissuaded by inadequate or bad answers. I spent all my travel time (3 hrs. round trip) for nearly two years listening to tapes from St. Joseph Communications – saintjoe.com.

    Personally I think it's good to have an "outsider" give us these mild and respectful challenges. Oh, and tell those recovering catholics that they're a long way from recovery 🙂 

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    God draws us to Himself not through the pope but through worship. The seemingly uneventful Holy Sacrifice is the clintcher. That's what keeps our lives and the world from spinning out of control, as was pointed out by others.

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    Joseph there is a dialogue on the forums where someone gave you a solid scriptural defense of a Catholic position you questioned and you never even bothered to respond regarding those scriptures. You just go on and ask another question, and another, giving not the slightest indication that you are even paying attention to the answers. That is what has some of us annoyed with you and coming to the conclusion that you are just here to play games and are not sincere. It is absolutely false that you have been given ONLY answers that are off the mark.  I know because I have gone into the forums and seen some of the answers as well as the links to other websites that people have directed you to.  You are very non-specific. Give me an example with quotation of a case where you have asked a question regarding Catholic doctrine or practice and not gotten a single good answer.  I will not deny that some of your respondents have been less qualified and clear than others, but I know that some have been very clear and that you simply ignore them. You are the one who needs to start demonstarting that you are sincere here.

     Also do you realize that nearly every time a Catholic gives you an answer regarding what the Church teaches, you call it a rote answer? How insulting and demeaning is that?  And these are answers being given in our own words, too. What if I tiold you that all your questions are just rote do as you are told Protestant rhetoric, Joseph? I wouldn't be far off the mark,. because I bet that I could go to a dozen Protestant websites and find the very same questions listed. You see, two can play at your little game of insult even if it is masked in "politeness."

    So here is what I am going to do.

    You are not to post in the forums anymore.

    But this thread here will be where you are welcome to post your questions.  Start with one question that you think has not been adequately answered. Just one at a time and we will patiently go through them again and see where they lead. BTW I have no trouble at all stepping out of a Catholic box and understanding things from your perspective. I have a history in Protestanism, myself.

     Let's go.

    To all: Any off-track responses will be deleted. This is now Joseph's question box.

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    Well, what kind of lame action is "This is now Joseph's question box?" 

     

    First off, if I have not responded to some point then either I did not read it, it was not as well put as you claim, and most of all, it gets at the heart of what I have said about getting out of the Catholic box.  You state that I have been explained something but what you fail to understand is that even if it so clear to your Catholic eyes, that it is not to my non-Catholic eyes.  How much more clearer can I write it than that?

     

    Second, I have many questions and asking them in a variety of posts allows for many more people to read them?  Is everybody on this site to reply to what I write?  No.  Are the readers on here so afraid of what this non Catholic has to write that he must be boxed in to one corner or he will corrupt those precious Catholics?  No. 

     

    Third, when I refer to "rote answers" that must strike a nerve than many Catholics have a problem with because that term came from a friend who was Palistinian, had been driven to live in Canadam was then in America, and his words (as a "recovering Catholic as he called himself) was, "All Catholics are taught rote answers."  It is from a Catholic friend that I picked that term up as it seems to apply to a great many discussions.  For instance, I ask about Apostolic Succession and if I do not convert in a day about it then I need to "shut up and sit down" about it.  Well, guess what?  It is such a big deal for every Protestant I know (irrespective of what the former Protestants on here may say) that it needs to be discussed at length and in detail.  However, I am not the one denying it but others saying I am and then I get put into my little corner box.

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    No, I am not in the least afraid of you corrupting anybody.  I am "afraid" — though that is not the right word — of you being a waste of time. So let's see how you do if you can't jump all overthe place from one forum post to another and actually have to follow a single thread of logical conversation.  Or are you afraid that if you are made to follow single logical train of reasoning that your precious Protestantism will be shown up for the tissue of illogic that it is. See, I can play at your little game too. There isn't a single insult you can hurl at us that I cannot give right back. But if that is the juvenile game you want to play, you can just be gone.  You have some pressing "biting" question to ask? Go ahead. We are waiting.

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    I've asked them, some answers have been given, many are just attacks about what I ask.  The fact that I have many posts are based on what I have read.

    Is it normal for a reader to be allowed to read only one section and then make only one post per section?  I doubt it.  Seems to me I see posts from many people on many different sections on here.

    Also, please list all of the "insults" that I have "hurled" at Catholicism.

    I believe a definition of ecumenism is in order here.  "to promote mutual understanding and ultimately unity among all Christians."  Are we here to get at unity at the expense of the truth?  Is it better if this "illogical Protestant," gets it or that he just says he does so nobody has to be asked any more questions?

    Finally, why am I such a popular person on here?  My goodness, is everybody on here reading what I post?  Look at the volume of data on this site, how in the world can this Southern Baptist be such a big deal that you are basically trying to throw me off of it?  So what if I make several posts?  Each post is directed at the particular thread or reading material, and for those partaking of those threads.  I do that because I assume that there are so many people and threads, ways to discuss stuff on here that each thread needs to be done that way.

    "Jumping all over the place," who cares?  Only those reading it will know what I write.

    Joseph Bailey

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    Perhaps one should check with Benedict about those "illogical Protestants" and oh my, those heathen Baptists in particular, as to whether they "should be gone."  Especially in light of the news flash of, "Pope says he hopes talks with Baptists bear fruit for dialogue."

    Dialogue: discussion intended to explore a subject or resolve a problem.

    Hmm, imagine the Vicar of Christ doing what Benedict is doing?  Hmm, maybe he is onto something, as this illogical Baptist would ask, "do ya reckon?"

    Joseph Bailey

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    Joseph, no one here has said that Baptists are heathens.  I'm starting to see where Mary's coming from.

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    Speaking of rote answers: let me just address that.  We are taught by means of catechism.  The word means question and answer and is the way that classical education was carried out for centuries from the ancient Greeks, through the Romans, through the early Christians and into the medieval trivium.

    In other words the elementary education (grammar school) in all subjects was done by catechetical instruction.  Catechism of course also refers to the summary of Christian doctrine found within a catechism.  Since this is a logical and practical way of transmitting a body of knowledge, especially to children, catechisms have been produced by the Lutherans (Martin Luther himself wrote one), the Calvinists (John Calvin himself wrote one) and there have historically been Baptist and Anabaptist catechisms produced.

    This means that Catholics are hardly alone in giving rote instruction to children.  The memorization of scripture is also rote learning.

    It is this kind of instruction in the faith that protects Catholics from dissolving into the kind of silly rambling babbling that passes for Baptist prayers that start off "Our Dear Father in Heaven" and ends by saying "thank you for dying on the cross for us."  If they had a clue what they were saying they would be heretics of the modalistic monarchial stripe or Oneness Pentecostals. It is catechetical instruction about the Holy Trinity that prevents Catholics from answering the statement, "Jesus Christ is God" with the hesitant retort I have heard from many Baptists, "Well… uh, he's the Son of God."

    Most Baptists I know could use a bit of catechetical instruction in the basics of Nicene doctrine.

    However, for Catholics, rote catechetical instruction is given to them as children and by the time they are confirmed and older they are to be making their faith there own and engaging in more rigorous dialectical and rhetorical instruction leading into philosophy and theology.  Apparently your "recovering Catholic" friends never went beyond a child's understanding of the Catholic faith.  They are as poor representatives of the best of Catholic thought as your average 7 year old Baptist is of Protestantism.  So get over using them as examples because they are ignorant.

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    Ask a question Joseph. Any question. And stop whining.

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    The reason why I'm not letting you jump all over the place anymore is that it has simply become a way for you to avoid dealing with the answers you are given.  It is very typical of Protestants who are insincere in questioning Catholics — meaning they really don't want an answer; they just want to maintain their own mental fiction that there is no answer — so one asks, say a question about Mary, the Catholic answers and he does not even acknowledge the answer, instead the next words out of his mouth is a question about Purgatory; the Catholic again answers but instead of dealing with the answer, the Protestant jumps to a question about statues. We are very used to this.

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    I do not see how anyone can accept Apsotolic Succession as has been taught and preached by Catholicism.  It is not that it is invalid but that it is so unclear.   The fact that the whole world is not full of Catholics who were taught what they were from birth is exactly the reason as well as Baptists not knowing their own faith too, that discussions have been so hard.

    My question is why cannot Catholicism accept that it claim to Apostolic Succession is not that clear, not that easy fro non Catholics to accept, and why do they avoid answering the question with a rote response?

    Joseph Bailey

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    What exactly is the Catholic teaching on Apostolic succession that you find unclear?

    See until you can yourself explicate the doctrine as the Church teaches it, you cannot make a judgement about it.  So from your research and the numerous answers already given you on this subject what are the scriptural, historical and logical reasons that Catholics give for this teaching?

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    Let me add here that I was about to change the first question when the power blinked so now I am here to clarify it.

     

    My question is what is the Scriptural basis and the Scriptural basis only of Apostolic Succession?  Please, save the response using Tradition or other non-Scripture and start with (for now) the Scriptural basis for the concept of Apostolic Succession.

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    You tell me — you apparently know it well enough to declare that it is unclear.

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    Also, by what warrant do you declare that a teaching must be validated by scripture only?  I challenge you to prove to me from scripture alone that the deposit of the Apostolic faith is contained in scripture alone.

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    Joseph, did you read Mark Shea's article? He has already provided the scriptural references you seek.

     

    BTW, nice work Mark, thank you!

     

    In His Peace

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    Work in progress, Mark Shea's article only tangetially touched on the issue that Jospeh is trying to discuss. It was not intended to be a thorough scriptural defense of the doctrine of Apostolic succession or Petrine primacy.

    Joseph please do not be distracted from the task at hand by work in progress' question. In case you have forgotten, you are going to tell me what the Church teaches about Apostolic succession and why it is unclear. And you are going to demonstrate from scripture alone that scripture alone is the only reposity of the deposit of the Apostolic faith.

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    No, the question put before me was to ask one question.  I have done it.  I have yet to see a response save for me being asked another question.  I am not interested,  for purposes of what was asked of me-to start with one question and follow it through-in anything but the Scriptural references so, whoever will reply to my one question should list the Scripture.  Plain and simple, list it and then when that one question is answered per the demand made upon me but not others who post all over this site, I will answer each question asked of me, one by one, point by point.

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    Oh, I am not whining but awaiting a response wherein someone can list right here to my first question, the Scriptural basis for Apostolic Succession.

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    Better yet, let me state more succintly, what are the exact Bible verses that Catholicism starts with as the foundation for the concept of Apostolic Succession?  NOY why but the verses themself.

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    That is fair enough. That is what I told you.

    However, there is a problem with your question.

    "[W]hat are the exact Bible verses that Catholicism starts with as the foundation for the concept of Apostolic Succession?"

    Your question assumes that the Catholic Church derived the doctrine (or claims to have derived the doctrine) from scripture.  That is wrong because the Church and the doctrine predated the scripture.  We can illustrate from scripture that the Apostolic Church functioned with the understanding of that doctrine. But you need to understand that this Church was functioning before a single word of the NT was committed to writing. So the scriptures I am giving you below show the Church functioning with Apostolic succession in place, but the Apostles and the early Church did not get this doctrine from the scriptures – they could not because the scriptures (NT) had not yet been written. The Catholic Church today does not derive this doctrine from the scriptures, but rather from the Apostles. However here are a number of demonstrations of the functioning of Apostolic succession in the Apostolic times. Most from scripture and one from the historical record of Apostolic times. (I might mention that this doctrine is held also by the Orthodox, who we believe have valid Apostolic succession and they believe the same regarding the Catholic Church. It is also held by the Anglicans, who claim to have valid apostolic succession, but their claim is denied by the Catholic Church. That means that it is a doctrine that has been held by all Christians until the 1600s and is held today by the majority of Christians in the world.)

    New Testament Accounts of Apostolic succession in action

    Acts 1:15-26 – the first thing Peter does after Jesus ascends into heaven is implement apostolic succession. Matthias is ordained with full apostolic authority.

    Acts 1:20 – a successor of Judas is chosen. The authority of his office (his "bishopric") is not invalidated due to his sin.

    Acts 1:22 – literally, "one must be ordained" to be a witness with us of His resurrection. Apostolic ordination is required in order to teach with Christ's authority.

    Acts 6:6 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination). This authority has transferred beyond the original twelve apostles as the Church has grown.

    Acts 9:17-19 – even Paul, who was directly chosen by Christ, only becomes a minister after the laying on of hands by a bishop (sacramental ordination).

    Acts 13:3 – apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

    Acts 14:23 – the apostles and newly-ordained men appointed elders to have authority throughout the Church.

    Acts 15:22-27 – preachers of the Word must be sent by the bishops in union with the Church. We must trace this authority to the apostles.

    2 Cor. 1:21-22 – Paul writes that God has commissioned certain men and sealed them with the Holy Spirit as a guarantee.

    Col 1:25 – Paul calls his position a divine "office." An office has successors. It does not terminate at death. Or it's not an office. See also Heb. 7:23 – an office continues with another successor after the previous office-holder's death.

    1 Tim. 3:1 – Paul uses the word "episcopoi" (bishop) which requires an office. Everyone understood that Paul's use of episcopoi and office meant it would carry on after his death by those who would succeed him.

    1 Tim. 4:14 – again, apostolic authority is transferred through the laying on of hands (ordination).

    1 Tim. 5:22 – Paul urges Timothy to be careful in laying on the hands (ordaining others). The gift of authority is a reality and cannot be used indiscriminately.

    2 Tim. 1:6 – Paul again reminds Timothy the unique gift of God that he received through the laying on of hands.

    2 Tim. 4:1-6 – at end of Paul's life, Paul charges Timothy with the office of his ministry.

    2 Tim. 2:2 – this verse shows God's intention is to transfer authority to successors (here, Paul to Timothy to 3rd to 4th generation). It goes beyond the death of the apostles.

    Titus 1:5; Luke 10:1 – the elders of the Church are appointed and hold authority. God has His children participate in Christ's work.

    1 John 4:6 – whoever knows God listens to us (the bishops and the successors to the apostles).

    Pope Clement I

    "Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4-5, 44:1-3 [A.D. 80]).

    Old Testament Types

    Exodus 18:25-26 – Moses appoints various heads over the people of God. We see a hierarchy, a transfer of authority and succession.

    Exodus 40:15 – the physical anointing shows that God intended a perpetual priesthood with an identifiable unbroken succession.

    Numbers 3:3 – the sons of Aaron were formally "anointed" priests in "ordination" to minister in the priests' "office."

    Numbers 16:40 – shows God's intention of unbroken succession within His kingdom on earth. Unless a priest was ordained by Aaron and his descendants, he had no authority.

    Numbers 27:18-20 – shows God's intention that, through the "laying on of hands," one is commissioned and has authority.

    Deut. 34:9 – Moses laid hands upon Joshua, and because of this, Joshua was obeyed as successor, full of the spirit of wisdom.

    Sirach 45:15 – Moses ordains Aaron and anoints him with oil. There is a transfer of authority through formal ordination.

    Gospel Illumination

    The Gospel writers are not writing to explicate this doctrine, however, we can see in their accounts of what Jesus said and did, how the Apostolic authority was granted by Christ to the Apostles. This is important because what the Apostles taught was of course, what Jesus had taught them. Of course the Gospels were written even after some of the letters of St. Paul above, so we cannot say that the early Church (sometime called the "New Testament Church," even though it did not have the New Testament) derived its doctrine or practice from these scriptures.

    Matt. 10:1,40 – Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.

    Matt. 16:19; 18:18 – the apostles are given Christ's authority to make visible decisions on earth that will be ratified in heaven.

    Luke 9:1; 10:19 – Jesus gives the apostles authority over the natural and the supernatural (diseases, demons, serpents, and scorpions).

    Luke 10:16 – Jesus tells His apostles, "he who hears you, hears Me." When we hear the bishops' teaching on the faith, we hear Christ Himself.

    Luke 22:29 – the Father gives the kingdom to the Son, and the Son gives the kingdom to the apostles. The gift is transferred from the Father to the Son to the apostles.

    Num 16:28 – the Father's authority is transferred to Moses. Moses does not speak on his own. This is a real transfer of authority.

    John 5:30 – similarly, Jesus as man does nothing of His own authority, but He acts under the authority of the Father.

    John 7:16-17 – Jesus as man states that His authority is not His own, but from God. He will transfer this authority to other men.

    John 8:28 – Jesus says He does nothing on His own authority. Similarly, the apostles will do nothing on their own authority. Their authority comes from God.

    John 12:49 – The Father's authority is transferred to the Son. The Son does not speak on his own. This is a transfer of divine authority.

    John 13:20 – Jesus says, "he who receives anyone who I send, receives Me." He who receives the apostles, receives Christ Himself. He who rejects the apostles and their successors, rejects Christ.

    John 14:10 – Jesus says the Word He speaks is not His own authority, but from the Father. The gift is from the Father to Jesus to the apostles.

    John 16:14-15 – what the Father has, the Son has, and the Son gives it to the apostles. The authority is not lessened or mitigated.

    John 17:18; 20:21 – as the Father sends the Son, the Son sends the apostles. The apostles have divinely appointed authority.

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    From a convert to the Catholic Church I just want to say – thank you mkochan – and to Joseph – there is none so blind as those who cannot see.. I know from my own past experience. I pray that eventually Joseph that that blind spot will be removed.

    Walter Brietzke

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    Well done, Mary.

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    Well, why don't we save the personal attacks on Joseph and his blind spot and recognize that for many non Catholic Christians this claim of "Church here before Scripture" and this Replacement Theology action regarding the OT, is precisely why that there is an issue concerning Apostolic Succession.  Nearly every verse listed here can be accepted as what you claim Catholicism claims only in the context of who and what interpreted what.  Furthermore, this focus on the Church existing prior to the Resurrection is exactly what Replacement Theology is all about and why that Catholicism seems, (note seems was written here) to be more concerned with its focus on authority than whether or not people know of Jesus Christ.  Also, it is this obsession of always being about authority that makes an outsider looking in wonder if since there is no clear cut chain of commend of the concept of Apostolic Succession, then it is no wonder that Catholicism would spend so much of its work and effort defending that claim.

    Joseph Bailey

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    Furthermore, my question "does not assume anything" but is a statement of fact of question.  No different from saying, for instance, where does the foundation lay for the USA, i.e., the Constitution.  It was a direct and straight forward question, so please stop with the assumptions about what you and others claim I mean, trying to do, or any other wild-eye conspiracy theories.  Your experiences with Protestants would appear to be no different than mine with Catholics to date, and I have stated numerous times in various posts that it is this issue of conflict that needs working through so as to get at ways of untiy.  Ramming down my throat Catholic authority is exactly what is meant when a Catholic writes, "unity at the expense of truth."  please, before the barrage begins, note that a Catholic wrote that and I am simply quoting them.

    Asking a direct question and expecting direct answers is what I was asked to do and I did it.  Several verses were provided as an answer to my question.  I will have to look at each one but it still begs an answer to the direct question.  Also, the lack of an ability to reference the sacred text and what a religion claims as its authoritative material, presents a troubling paradox to many in this world, of which I am one.  I have never said in any way/form/fashion that Catholicism is invalid or other such terminology.  Those comments come from the lay Catholics on here and not me.  What I have asked and/or said is that the foundation of Apostolic Succession in regards to its origins is not that clear cut but that does not negate the Office of Peter as it developed ove rthe centuries.  The unwillingness to step out of the Catholic box is a problem and please, spare me the diatribe about how "enlightened you or some other convert to Catholicism" is as that is great for you but I am not you nor are the millions of other non Catholics.  It is a problem because when a sincere and genuine search for the answers is done all that Catholics seem to know how to do it attack the messenger and discredit the messenger so that there is no need to actually answer the questions at hand.   However, if it makes all of the lay Catholics on here feel better than that could rip me apart, then please do because I suppose that would confirm your wonderous Catholic authority and comfort you in defending that authority.

    Joseph Bailey

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    Finally, this control thing of me being in my "little corner box," is just a glaring example of the lack of Apologetic ability.  Do you suppose that all readers on here are going to come to your little box for me? Does everyone on here do the exact same thing and read the exact same material the way to order them to?  Perhaps you should post a forum dedicated just to me and then everyone can come and see my little corner box discussions.  After all, it seems to be about what another person can do to exert their control than discuss anything.  Do you suppose that perhaps your Catholic conversion is not as sound as you profess and that my questions have drudged up old haunts of yours that are now begging an answer once more?  I think that is the central question of my "little corner box" because if you are challenged as you have been then what of these other Catholic readers?  Will you all not be in mortal sin if you dare allow your conscience to consider a reply to my questions?  I mean, after all, it was Paul the Apostle that exhorted we "dare not think those things that they do," and oh my, asking a question and expecting an answer about what is really the most important issue between Catholicism and its Protestants brethern in Christ, is what it is all about, not Luther's carrying on some 5 centuries past.  Even allowing a discussion on the real foundation of Catholic doctrine will have you doing what?  Saying how Rosaries?  Yet, a discussion that would have perhaps illuminated as to why it is so important cannot be done because the "authority complex" is rearing its head and a Catholic convert is suddenly faced with a struggle of conscience that she beleived long settled.

    Joseph Bailey

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    Joseph, in an earlier post I labeled your comments polite and sincere. In another section I called our editor all knowing. It seems I was wrong on my earlier comment and mkochan proved that she has a grasp of the big picture. Catholics are accomodating to the point of sinfullness. The scripture references to your question made me look up at the http bar to check that I wasn't on a Protestant website. Yet with all this material on the table we're reading about your "little corner box".

    If I was given that ultimatum I would plaster the page with scripture refs., links and quotes by famous Baptists or I'd do the southern – see y'all later.

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    Ok, this is exactly why you may shortly be off here permanently.  You do not seem to be able to simply deal with the answer you are given without going off into some inane diatribe.

    Those Catholics like myself who are quite adept at apologetics and know the faith well can be spending our time helping sincere inquirers to understand the faith. We can be helping our fellow Catholics to learn how to defend the faith.

    Catholics who are not as versed in the faith can be spending their time becoming more knowledgeable.

    All of us can be spending more time in prayer or in doing the kind of thing I was doing this morning — helping my second grader spell consonant blends and my fourth grader grasp Cartesian coordinates. These are all good uses of the time God has given us. I happen to take very seriously the responsibility to redeem our time.  Every minute of my day was bought by my Savior's blood and I don't have the right to squander it. Someone who comes onto this site and is not an honest inquirer can use the power of the internet to demonically squander many hours of precious redeemed time.  That is why I gave you the chance to prove you are honest. So far the verdict is not in your favor.  You don't have much longer of an allowance of time to be here. I suggest you deal honestly, thoughtfully, and substantively with the scriptures and the argument that you have been presented. 

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    Winslow, I removed your posts so they don't distract Joseph and because they did not advance the discussion. Please do not be offended; I did warn that I was going to do that.

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    Reply to goral,

     

    I am not the one who has been asked to provide Scriptural basis for Apostolic Succession.  It is the lack of it or the fact that it is all about intrepreting later verses as the foundation for it that is at issue.  I know of no Baptist or most Protestants that would "plaster anything" with verses because the contention of Protestantism is that the foundation used for Apostolic Succession, has never been that clear for non Catholics.  This has been the whole point of this particular discussion point and thus, when I ask for Scripture to back up the AS claim, I am asking for the verses that state unambiguously that "the keys to the kingdom" allows for AS.  Giving me or anyone else who has a problem with all of these verses just shows that it is all about intrepretation.

     

    Example: in John 14:6, it leaves no doubt whatsoever that the true path to God is through the Christ.  No doubt, no interpretation, no papal bull, no nothing.  It is as clear as bell on a sunny day across the Georgia plains.  Yet, for Apostolic Succession, there seems to be lots of verses but my question is what are the exact verses that clearly demonstrate this teaching and not that oh, we know that Paul meant this because of this verse and that supports our teaching or that Peter meant this because of that verse or even that Christ meant this or that because of this verse which backs up another verse but never says outright what it needs to say.

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    Mary,

     

    I realize this would serve as a distraction to Joe and you will need to remove it but this Bull was written before the Reformation.  Doesn't that point to the fact there were no other denominations of Christians on the face of the earth other than Catholics?  I always wondered why Christians other than Catholic got all bothered about being excluded by this Bull when their denominations didn't exist yet.

    In Christ,

    Bill  

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    "demonically squander"-why don't you save the drama queen Inquisition performance for someone who wants it?  Again, avoid the question by attacking the person asking the question and you can discredit a sincere inquiry into a particular topic.  Furthermore, name calling and denounciation are going to do what?  Make you and others feel better but the question asked remains unanswered.  You can blow it off and shout triumphantly that you have driven off yet another Protestant and that will serve you how?  Maybe you should make a pilgramage to Rome and share with Benedict your victory for Catholicism and see what he says about it.

    It appears that few if any Catholics are able to understand that what they take as the Truth (i.e., Apostolic Succession), is what non Catholics like me and others have difficulty with and when most answers center around attacking the messenger, that only serves to feed the belief (and it may be inaccurate but we'll never know) that Catholicism cannot defend its basis for existence without an attack on the messenger.  Further, in light of the many times I have stated that I am not attacking Catholicism, after I would be ripped to shreds on a post that would just ask a question, it goes right over the heads of those reading what I write.  Additionally, I would preface my inquiries with the acknowledgement that I was not a Catholic and what I was asking would elicit heated debate but to please just look at my questions.  Yet, being referenced to as "demonically squandering" time is just plain childish.

    Joseph Bailey

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    Nothing you do offends me, Mary, and I will never cross you on this site.  You're the boss and that's fine with me.  God bless you.

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    Since he's all over "show it to me in Scripture," someone needs to ask the dude where in Scripture it says "Southern Baptist" and where it says Southern Baptist is a valid Christian religion.

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    No, let's stick to the question I asked per the rules set down and not get distracted.

     

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    The Church is the "pillar of Truth" (scriptural). If the Church, Catholic and Orthodox were to be raptured tomorrow, it would most likely be the Southern Baptists who would set up an authoritative structure. The Church was before the NT Scripture, during its writing and the Church is now. It alone has the commission to interpret the Scriptures with authority.  The Scriptures were written by the Church and for the Church. Joseph, you just don't like that answer. The fact that Baptists got hold of the Catholic Book is the reason why there's confusion. We would have endless issues with the Russian constitution here wouldn't we? We would have endless issues with the American Constitution, for that matter, if it wasn't for an authoritative body interpreting it and enforcing it. Once again, no rote here, just common sense. The fact that you've been saturated with a rebellious Protestant tradition is somethin' that you have to sort through and ultimately prove to yourself. Y'all be good.

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    Joseph, where are the verses that clearly instruct, without interpretation, the following:

    >that Christ is God?

    >that God is three Divine Persons in One Divine Being?

    >that Christ is one person possessing the nature of God and the nature of man?

    They simply don't exist, not with the kind of clarity you are demanding of the doctrine of Apostolic succession. (Believe me as a JW I was quite adept at explaining away every Trinitarian proof text.) But without those teachings Jesus words, that no one comes to the Father except by Him, are open to the interpretation of the Gnostics that Jesus came to show each of us that we are divine or that of Arius that he is a created being.

    So why do you accept those Nicene doctrines? There is only one reason you accept them, because of the authority of the Catholic Church. Now you may say that really you accept them because your Baptist fellowship taught them to you and backed them up with scriptures, but they are only using the interpretive method of the Catholic Church to do so and you have a further problem?

    Where is the scripture that clearly and not without interpretation says what books belong in your Bible? There is none.  So again you are dependent upon the authority of the Catholic Church. Reject that authority and you have no Bible and sooner of later will lose the doctrine of the Trinity as well, the way that many Baptists functionally have already done – see my observation about their incoherent prayers above.

    Apply the same [il]logic to other doctrines that you are apply to apostolic Succession and you simply end up with nothing. No Trinity, no Bible and no Chrisitanity.

    Now I have given you a whole raft of scriptures in answer to your question and you have yet to acknowledge them or respond to them, so your little game is nearly over here. Either go back and reread my answer and start responding to it or go away.

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    Mary, God delivers messages just when they are needed most. Your comment:

    I happen to take very seriously the responsibility to redeem our time.  Every minute of my day was bought by my Savior's blood and I don't have the right to squander it.

    was a much needed reminder. Thank you. Another step toward holiness.

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    I agree that the teaching of Apostolic Succession is not ABSOLUTELY OBVIOUSLY CLEAR through the Scriptures.

    There.  It's been said.  It hasn't been said yet, I think, because, as Mary pointed out above, there's MUCH Christian teaching that is not absolutely obviously clear through the Scriptures.

    I think Joseph would like someone to at least acknowledge this, and so I have.  But I don't think it helps one iota.  Why? 

     

    Because if the teachings of Christ were absolutely, obviously clear (through the Scriptures or otherwise), then the world would be Christian by now.

    And a further corollary to the above statement is this:

    Faith would no longer be necessary.

    Some years ago when I restled with whether or not I ought to remain Catholic (born and raised Catholic…and went 2000 miles off to college and faced with actually living my faith myself), it did not take long for me to realize the ultimate question I had to answer for myself:

    Either I would have to be Catholic or not Christian at all.  Either Christ is God or he isn't.  If he is, then he was powerful enough to establish His Church error-free.  If he was not powerful enough to establish his Church on earth and keep it free from error, then I didn't want to bother with that kind of "god" anyway.

    It was my faith that Christ IS God that kept me Christian.  (Praise God!)

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    Look, I was asked to make one question and I did that and to date, there has not been an answer to that one question concerning Scripture.  The response of "They simply don't exist…" is and has been my point of contention since the first word I wrote about this subject but Catholicism teaches that it is absolute.  For non Catholics like me (and news flash: there are still millions of us) this call to authority and focus on Apostolic Succession is a great challenge because it is not clearly rooted in Scripture.  Saying that something is a great challenge is not attacking anything.

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    Joseph Bailey you would try the patience of Job.

    I posted about 50 scriptures and you have not responded to a single one.

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    Apostolic succession as an explicated doctrine is not clear in scripture.  Apostolic AUTHORITY, however, IS clear as a doctrine — taught by Christ.  Apostolic succession is clear as a PRACTICE of the early Church.  When you put the doctrine of Apostolic authority together with the PRACTICE of Apostolic succession, you have a doctrine of Apostolic succession.  We KNOW what the early Church believed about Apostolic succession because 1. the teaching has been passed down from Christ through the Apostles and through the bishops, and 2. because we can look at the historical record of the NT and see that that was the practice of the Apostolic Church, and 3. we have written testimony of the ECF explicitly teaching this doctrine. It is no more in doubt (actually less doubtful) than the deity of Christ. In fact, next to the existence of God, which is knowable through reason alone it is probably our most certain doctrine. This would be necessary if you think about it, because without the surety that Christ established a trustworthy Church, we could be sure of nothing.

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    Reply to m,

    You are writing your response as a Catholic.  When I write that AS is not that clear to non Catholics it is precisely because the Scripture references are debatable, that it goes from Authority to Succession, and as any student of history in general will tell you, the First Century does not provide enough recorded documents to substantiate many of the claims made by Catholicism, unless one accepts it from a Catholic standpoint.  However, this historial issue does not negate the Catholic Church, as many non Catholics have argued and I'm sorry, please spare me the diabtribe about "history" as many non Catholic academics and others do, in fact, argue that such issues as Apostolic Succession, are all a Catholic Church construct that is not valid in terms of historical work and/or Scripturally valid.  My point here has been to find material (i.e., Scripture) that refutes that from that perspective and that has not been done as per the one question you asked me to ask.

    My patience has been tried as I listen to the name calling, to the "corner box" comments, and do so after I make clear repeatedly that I am not attacking Catholicism.  Yet, that flies over the lay Catholics head.  I had asked specifically for the Scripture verses that backup AS, and most of all, that provide clear proof of it since it is so important to Catholicism and thereby from a Catholics viewpoint, important to Christianity.  What I often received was how I am this way or that way or like Luther or God knows what else instead of answering a direct question with a direct answer.  This was finally done when you replied in a post above that AS is not that clear in Scripture.  It is my opinion that you and other lay Catholics failed to answer the direct question because in the back of your minds you know that Scripturally speaking, it is hard to show proof of direct support for AS.  However, it is also probably in the back of your minds that because you know this that the minute you said it I would take that as fodder for an attack upon Catholicism.  Yet, all I was looking for was a direct answer to an important question.  It is important because since there is no clear cut Scripture on it, not what you write as what can be intrepreted as supporting it, so it would seem important to add additional material to support AS. 

    Had you answered the original question or others done that instead of mouthing off, putting me in a corner box, locking a forum and thereby inhibiting free discourse, you would have seen that my thesis was that there is no clear cut Scripture on AS and please, I don't care what Catholics say, this is major issue for Protestants .  Thus, one has to look at additional support such as other Bible verses from the most important Christian outside of Christ to live, Paul the Apostle, as well as what was constructed in that First Century and how that put into motion what is now known as Christianity.  Yet, what has been demonstrated is what I asked in my thread that has created so much debate: lay Catholics almost universally cannot adequately engage in Apologetic work because all they do is rant using rote answers and always avoid answering direct questions.  This tendency is a contradiction of the faith that claims both authority and authenticity from Christ Himself giving Peter the keys to the Kingdom.  It has been on display in full measure here on CE the last couple of weeks and as I said many times, answer the question so that a further one could develop.

    Now it has been answered and where are my attacks upon your beloved faith?  There are none, are there?

    Joseph Bailey

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    Well, it is one thing to say that the scriptural points are debatable and it is quite another to debate them, isn't it?  So go ahead.  That is exactly what we are all waiting for.  We are waiting for your substantive response to the scriptures that I gave you.  I did answer your question and you are still refusing to deal with those scriptures.  The closest you have come to even acknowledging the 50 or so scriptures I have posted is to say they are debatable. Did you even bother to actually read them?  Prove it. Post one of them and debate it.  Give us a plausible, historically supportable, alternative, exegesis.

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    Joseph, seriously, did you see the scriptures I posted?  Did you read the accompanying line of logic.  Because it really loooks like you have completely over looked them. It is the very lengthy post about halfway down page 2.

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    There is no need to debate the Scriptures you listed as my original question was to list the exact ones that provided the basis for AS.  I could go down each one you listed and do an exegesis but that does not serve the line of inquiry originally sought. 

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    I did list them. But you are not dealing with them. You have one more chance. Your next post had better be a response to those scriptures or you will have demonstrated your complete lack of sincerity and honesty.

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    Well JB choose to offer a final parting insult to me here instead of courageously coming on this thread and dealing forthrightly with the biblical evidence for the Catholic understanding of Apostolic succession.  Too bad.

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    "lay Catholics almost universally cannot adequately engage in Apologetic work because all they do is rant using rote answers and always avoid answering direct questions."

    That would be me, which rant or rote answers are you referring to? If lay Catholics are the problem then why not go to a more authoritative source. Oh, I forgot, Church authority is the sticking point. Well then whose problem is that? We only need to prove beyond reasonable doubt what we believe. We don't need to prove beyond all doubt. That kind of proof is not tenable in a court of law and is destructive to faith in religious discourse. The problem you guys created, you own.

    We look at history and see that St. Peter was at the helm of the ship till the yr. aprox. 67. St. Linus took over then till the yr. 76. Succession continued with St. Cletus till 88. St Clement the first rounds off the first century. On and on it goes to the current BXVI. This is factual history my friend, it's not an interpretation. If you're not subject to the Roman Pontiff that's your choice, but now that you've been instructed you can't claim ignorance.

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    Ok, look folks, he is gone.  So out of respect, we should not backbite him or address him when he cannot respond.

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    Mary, have a great weekend.  You have earned it!

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    Mary, you have gone far, FAR above and beyond the call of duty, fairness and Christian charity.  As I thought of this trial, it came to me that Our Lord hung on the Cross for Joseph, too.  In that light, we can, and should, pray for him.

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    Mary, I need to apologize to you.  As I was reading thru the comments between you and JB, I was very troubled by your harshness with him.  I couldn't see a reason for it in the beginning.  Obviously, the 2 of you have engaged in other conversations in other areas of CE.  Late in the debate, I began to see why you were reacting to him as you were.

    On the one hand, I'm sorry that Joseph was cut off: I enjoyed him.  On the other hand, you were right: he's not being sincere (even though he really believes he is).  Someone posted the old saying about none being so blind as those who will not see, and that's Joseph.  Is that his fault, or ours?  The grace to "see" only comes from God.  Perhaps thru our prayers, God will open Joseph's eyes to the truth.

    You did a magnificent job in responding to him, and I thank God for all that He has done in and for you to be able to do that.  Thank you.

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    Cooky, I felt the same way after his initial comments.  However, it didn't take long before he showed his true colors.  Clearly there is a history here that we weren't aware of.

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    He has been on the forums for some weeks; I just didn't have time to chase him all over the forum threads.  Plus the conversations there get very complex with a lot of people who take things off track. But I noticed a complaint from one forum user's within one of the threads to the effect that he had been given an answer to a question and was not acknowledging it, so I figured I would just pin him down and see what the real story was.

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    Apparently that's a pattern for him.  It's too bad that he had to monopolize so much of your time. 

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    Mary may delete this, but I want to say it anyway.  Joseph is not an anomaly.  He is the classic representation of his kind.  In case you haven't heard, Southern Baptists are, by definition, anti-Catholic bigots.  They are raised that way.  From the cradle.  The is NO WAY a Catholic can reach even a single one of them with reason.  You saw in Joseph the classic SB response to Catholic apologetics.

    Talking to them is like talking to a rock.  I hope we never have to go through this again.

    Bless you all.

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    Winslow!  I am suprised at you.  I happen to live in Georgia.  I am pretty much surrounded by Southern Baptists. Before I became Catholic I worked in Evangelical counter-cult ministry.  While I was a member of a Lutheran congregation, I helped the Southern Baptist Home Mission Board in Atlanta revise their materials on Jehovah's Witnesses. My husband and I still have several of them as friends and they aren't nearly as close minded as you are saying.

    Among the Evangelicals who I know that have converted to Catholicism there are several former Southern Baptists and in addition there is more and more openeness among them to do ecumenical projects with Catholics. You simply cannot paint them with a broad brush like that.

    I will give you a tip — when you talk to them, talk about your personal relationship with Jesus.  That is the best way to get on to common ground with them. Remember they are our separated brethren — but brethren nonetheless.

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    I noticed Joe pointed to St. Paul's writings as proof that AS makes no sense.  However Paul was once Saul and Saul was persecuting the Church.  Therefore the Church exsisted before the NT.  Saul didn't write all those NT books, it was the  new convert Paul.  So the authority for early Christianity couldn't have been the NT but the Church.  It's an easy demonstration from scripture to see which came first.  Especially for a non-Catholic.

    John Martinogni makes this point in some of his apologetic work.  If he hasn't been mentioned before, he's worth a look.

    wgsullivan    

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    wgsullivan,

    Would you be so kind as to go to the CE Forums and post what you know about John Martnogni (or about his books).  There are many viewers there that would appreciate hearing about more authors.

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    "However Paul was once Saul and Saul was persecuting the Church.  Therefore the Church exsisted before the NT."

     

    The birthday of the Church is the day of Pentacost, which predated the writing of the NT and its persecution by Saul.  I missed your point.

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    The point was for Joe.  It seems as though he believes Christ left the Bible in charge and it is imperative to show that scripture points to the Church as the authority and how the NT didn't exist for some time after the church was started.  Joe had also mentioned St. Paul's books in the NT, and what he thought, was the signifigance of Paul not mentioning AS.  As Catholics it's easy to swallow all of CHrist's teachings concerning authority and His Church.  For our Protestant friends we must point to scripture doing the same. 

    To put more of what I mentioned in better context I would suggest visiting the Bible Christian Society site.  John Martinogni has a much better way with words than I do.  He does not beat around the bush.

    A side issue that I have been informed of lately is that the church teaches it started when Christ's side was pierced and the blood and water flowed forth.  Pentecost was the public showing and subsequent growth of the already existing church.

     

    wgsullivan

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    Joseph,

    I don't know if it is semantics or if it is theology here. 

    Catholics also believe that the Christian faith is predicated upon God's revelation to humanity.  However, Catholics believe that the fullness of that Revelation is Christ himself – not the Bible.  The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. 

    This also does not change the fact that Scripture is still important.  However, Catholics believe they are fully following the fullness of God's Revelation by following the Christ in the Church, which includes Scripture.  Christ did not leave us.  He did not just leave us with the Scriptures.  He said He would be with us until the end of time, and we believe that the way He remains with us is through the Body of Christ – the Church. 

    I know that maybe sentence for sentence, I do not say something you necessarily disagree with.  That's why I'm not sure if the distinction is merely semantics or if it is theology.

    But that is why Catholics do not look to Scripture to independently prove anything.  Scripture is a part (an infallible part that is pure gift from God) of the bigger picture. 

    It's like 3 legs of a stool.  Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magesterium.  None of the 3 is greater than the other.

    What we have in 2007 IS the Word.  But the Word is Christ – not just the Scriptures.  The Church as the Body of Christ is being held up by all 3 legs of the stool.  Asking to prove one thing or another from only 1 of the legs causes everything else to topple.

    And do I understand that Protestants do not agree with this?  Absolutely.  If they did, they would no longer be Protestant.

    Is it something that can be scientifically, mathematically derivable?  No…otherwise EVERYONE would be Catholic. 

    I'm not just sure what else could possibly be said.

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    Thank you Loretta for pointing out to Joseph, that by informing us that scripture matters to Protestants and that Protestants don't accept Apostolic succession (except in the undeserved Apostolic authority they often invest in their preachers) that he continues to devote himself to telling all of us what we already know while thinking that he is laying some big revelation on all of us.

    When he comes here sincerely seeking to learn instead of trying to set himself up as a teacher, he will be welcome. And of course the first thing he has to do is deal with all the scriptures that demonstrate Apostolic succession in action which I posted on this thread and he continues to ignore.

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    It is very rare that posts are ever deleted — except for the spam posts.  However posters are guests on this site and the editors have final say.  When a poster is obnoxious and is repeatedly warned as Joseph Bailey has been, and simply refuses to comply with the requests of the editors, posts will be removed. This last post of JB was removed for the reasons that 1. he did not abide by the editor's request to confine himself for a while to this thread 2. despite his boasting of fidelity to and interest in the scriptures, he has not responded to the scriptures posted in answer to his question — dozens of them 3. this post like so many others of his posts sarcastically and falsely insults Catholics.

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    [Responding to JB"s deleted posts.]

    Yes, but you are the only person whose posts have been deleted in over a month — considering the thousands of posts on here weekly that IS rare.

    When you stop being obnoxious, your posts will not be deleted.  You have already been informed of the way back but you simply refuse to take it. Step one is to stop your claims that we are somehow afraid of you or what you have to present. Step two is to discuss the dozens of scriptures that I posted — discuss them with me, a Catholic perfectly capable of having the kind of substantial discussion you say you want to have but which until now you have simply avoided by never responding to what is actually said to you. Once that is done editors will reassess whether we want you as a guest here. As of right now, we do not.

    Go start your own website and then you can decide who gets to post on it.

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    Now JB complains that I'm talking about him while I asked others not to do so.  Of course I would not be talking about him at all if he would go off to some other site and make a pest of himself.

    He then selectively takes one sentence in a long post of mine about what constitutes catechetical instruction and claims that Protestants are not used to this, while of course a thorough reading of my post on that demonstrates that catechetical instruction IS indeed used by a number of Protestants.  He then claims that what I wrote supported his continual slam about Catholic "rote answers," again demonstrating not the slightest engagement with the argument that I presented in my post, wherein I mentioned that this is the instruction given to children, NOT the way adults are taught and that adults are taught to reason about their faith. Still, I have seen him respond to well-thought-out, personal, responses by derisively and insulting calling them "rote answers." This is why he is being deleted – he is insulting.  He does not bother to read what others write and attempt to understand it.  He reads merely to see if can grab an out-of-context word or two that suits his purpose. And as I said before, he still refuses to deal with all the scriptures demonstrating apostolic succession. For all these reasons his posts are being deleted and will continue to be deleted and we welcome him to go away.

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    Once again one of JB posts has had to be deleted.  I invited him through email to respond as a Southern Baptist to the scriptures that I posted earlier in answer to his request for scriptural references on Apostolic Succession.  In his deleted post, he said, "I will respond to the list of Scriptures on Page Three of this thread but it will be a Southern Baptist."  I think he meant to say, "I will respond to the list of Scriptures on Page Three of this thread but it will be AS a Southern Baptist."

    He then goes on to say that his posts will be deleted because he is writing them as a Southern Baptist.  This shows his stubborn stupidity.  Whatever native intelligence he has is being corrupted by his obstinacy and desire to see himself either as a victim of some kind of persecution or alternatively to see us as "afraid of him" and unequal to the "challenge" that his questions represent. This renders him extremely deficient in logic. So I will have to be very patient in pointing out to him the illogic of his thinking. For example:

    JB, don't you see how illogical and silly it is for you to claim in advance that if you respond to those scriptures as a Southern Baptist that I will delete your posts, when I am the person who has repeatedly in this thread and also by personal email told you to respond to them?  You see JB, my own thinking is very logical, I expect you to respond to those scriptures as a Southern Baptist because that is how you have identified yourself.

    I will have one of the forum moderators let people on the forum know that they can follow your comments about those scriptures on this thread. I give you advance warning that you are to confine your comments to examining the text of those scriptures as they relate to the Catholic claims of Apostolic succession AND you are to stay exclusively on this thread. I expect you to disagree with the Church's interpretation of those scriptures and we welcome your disagreeemnt and want to see all your reasons. But if you attempt to weave into that discussion personal insults about me, insulting comments about Catholics in general, or any other issues — i.e. Mary, Purgatory, the Deuterocanonicals — that separate Catholics and Protestants, those comments will be either deleted from within your posts (note that I can edit your posts) or the post will be deleted (but it will only be deleted if the insults are so enmeshed in it that I cannot easily and quickly remvoe them, as I am not going to spend a lot of my precious time cleaning up the messes you make). If that happens and you proceed to make the unfounded lying claim that I deleted the post because you are Southern Baptist or because we are not up to being challenged you will be completely exposed as a liar and an insincere troll – so watch yourself.

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    I will respond to the posts when I can see that after now more than 15 straight deletions, my posts will not be deleted.  I have a career and work for a living as well as a family and other committments and see no need to invest time and effort in posting my reponse to the Scriptures listed on Page Two, unless I can have an assurance that my posts will not be deleted.  No one knows what this mkcohan is referring to when my posts are deleted-it is like being accused in court of an offense and not being allowed to respond.  When I see a statement that no further posts will be deleted then I will start with Acts 1:15-26, and go in order of the verses listed on Page Two.  Otherwise, I too believe in "redeeming the time," and see no need to type out a long response that will be deleted either because a Southern Baptist wrote it or I wrote it.  Furthermore, I would like to see what and where it is listed in the rules/regulations of this site that a member is confined to one thread?

    Joseph Bailey

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    Most members are not confined to a single thread. Of course as with any site members are guests not owners of the property and editors/administrators may deal with them as see fit for the purposes of that website. You also know that your membership was cancelled and you of your own accord created a new membership.  We will soon be instituting advanced security procedures that will make it impossible for anyone to do that, but since you were able to reregister as a new account and have decided to make an unwelcome pest of yourself, don't arrogantly think that we owe you some kind of explanation for anything as we do not. Explanations don't work with you anyway, as you are unable to logically process the dozens that have already been given to you.

    People know good and well who are you are and what is being referred to when I deleted your posts and provided reasons for doing so. And unlike you, they understand the reasons that are given.  They recognize that you have been insulting and obnoxious and they recognize that you have not been an honest partner in dialog.  Once again you are demonstrating your weaseling technique because after asking you, both here and in personal email, to post your own Southern Baptist analysis of the scriptures I provided at your own request, you suddenly find yourself short of time.

    Fine; then don't post anything. Just go away. I have already made abundantly clear the conditions upon which your posts stand or fall (are deleted) and if you are too dense to understand that, then you need to be spending your time on a remedial education site that will improve your reading ability instead of here.

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    Anyway, JB, since you have decided that you don't have the time to give us your Southern Baptist analysis of those scriptures, please let your Southern Baptists friends know that any of them who would like to take a shot it are welcome to do so — as long as they mind their manners.

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    Preface: what is posted here will be from me and from several Southern Baptist friends, one who is currently in Seminary, who like the idea of this dialogue.  What will be written will be from that perspective and we are not going to engage in argument until all verses are addressed first.  Then there can be an argument about them.

     

    Acts 1:15-26- these twelve verses refer to the selection of Matthias to replace Judas as an Apostle.  The need for this new Apostle was related to the 12 Apostles/12 Tribe focus in Judaism and the continuing influence of Judaism upon early Christianity as well as Christ picking 12 Apostles.  The only reason that these twelve verses exist in Acts is due to Judas and his taking of his own life. 

     

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    Acts 1:20- this verse references the Book of Psalms in 69:25 and 109:8, as Old Testament support for prophesy concerning Judas and how he took his own life.  The author was using established Judaic text to provide support for the remaing 11 Apostles to have the authority to select a new 12th Apostle. 

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    Acts 1:22- this verse is a qoute on what was said about the need for a new 12th Apostle from the remaining 11 Apostles and of the focus of having someone who had witness the work, the Crucifixion, and Resurrection of the Christ.  The author of the text does not cite a particular individual as the verse, along with 21, can be seen as a collective saying among the remaining 11 Apostles as to what they sought in the qualifications of a new 12th Apostle.

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    Acts 6:6- this verse refers to the selection of Deacons so that the Apostles could focus their work on their main priority of first prayer and then ministry of the word, which can be taken to mean telling the world of the news of the Gospel message.  The act of laying of hands on the Deacons by the Apostles (key word here being Apostles, not one Apostle) signified that the Deacons were called out for service, consecrated before those witnessed it, and charged with doing a specific and defined ministry.

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    Thank you — this is very good!  I will respect your wish to comment on all the verses before we discuss them and I ask the other Catholics here to do the same.

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    This post will serve as the final entry of what has been a contentious, difficult, and conflict-laden attempt of dialogue betwee a member of one Christian faith and those of another Christian faith.  Although several points of discussion were well received and honored at times, the fact remains that with no guarantee of assurance of future posts not being deleted, those I had enlisted to help me believe it is time to go our separate Christian ways, as it was correctly pointed out to me that name calling (i.e, me being called things like a troll or Baptists being, "bigots"), posts being deleted, and the general difficulty anyhow of approaching Catholics over and about the bedrock foundation of their faith (i.e., Apostolic Succession), that it is best for Baptists to do their thing and Catholics their thing.  Whatever current Pope, Benedict XVI, hopes to do in reference to, "historically controverted issues," and subsequent dialogue with Baptists or any other Christian group, that work will be better served without digressions into the present climate of hostility to dialogue.  The 100 million Evangelical Protestants in America alone, can live with Catholics, sometimes fellowship with them, clearly engage in civic and work on serious social issues with them, but cannot ever hope to bridge the theological divide with Catholicism,  as it is just too wide to ever cross together.  May God find a way to use His Power to convince Christians the world over to unite however they can for His Work and His Work alone.

     

    Please cancel the User Account of this post.  Thank you.

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    Joseph,

    I believe your account will not be deleted. I believe your posts as LiveBlue and BaptistBrethern will stay with CE for posterity or until God sees no further use for the internet and computers. You see, to delete an account means they all go away. Words are important and as Jesus says we will be accountable for every one of them. Now that's scary, not you.

    Hopefully, the 1.1 billion Catholics the world over, as if a number could actually amount to something significant in the way of determining what the truth is, will pray earnestly that the full Gospel come to all the world so that Jesus' words will be obeyed.

    Hopefully, you do not speak for the 100 million evangelicals when you state that they cannot ever hope to bridge the theological divide. If that is the case, Jesus prayer for His disciples to be one will be for naught. Of course, it is impossible for God not to hear His Son or glorify Him as He glorifies the Father. Amen.

    In Christ,

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

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    Well this is simply amazing; let's rehearse what happened here.

    Some weeks ago JB showed up on this website in the forums, talking down to Catholics by telling them that he didn't want "rote" answers from them, claiming he was not here to insult us while he took an arrogant posture with us stating obvious things to us about Protestants as though all of us who live in work in a Protestant culture were ignorant, and asking what he called "challenging" and "biting" questions about the Catholic faith.

    I stayed out of the conversations and followed them only occasionally since there plenty of competent people on the forums to deal with him.  But I started to notice after some weeks that several people were becoming irritated with him and complaining on the forum that he was not responding when answers were given.

    So when he showed up on this thread, I decided to engage him to see if was here as a sincere interrogator or just some sort of game-player or troll.  I requested that he stay on this thread and ask his questions.  It took a long time to get him to ask a question; he obviously didn't like being pinned down and forced to make good on his boast.  Finally he asked for the scriptural support for the Catholic doctrine of apostolic succession.  I gave him dozens of scriptures and asked him to respond to them.  For post after post he all he would do is whine that his question was not being answered.  Finally I started deleting his posts and demanding that if he was going to be here at all he needed to stay on this thread and deal honestly with the scriptures that had been provided.

    At some point along the way he was so insulting and uncooperative that his account was deactivated.  He reregistered under a different user name and continued the same game-playing. I kept deleting every post that was not directed at the scriptural discussion he kept claiming he wanted to have, so that finally he said he would engage in it, as long as his posts were not deleted.  Since I had already made it very clear that he was welcome to stay here and honestly discuss those scriptures, there was no need for me to keep reiterating the point.

    Then he began going through the scriptures — after claiming at first that he did not have the time for it — with the help (he claimed) of his Baptist friends including a seminarian. I am sure that like many of you I thought, "At last, we are getting somewhere and we can have good scriptural discussion of this issue." But after doing nothing more than retelling what several of the scriptures said, without any attempt to address the Catholic interpretation or offer an alternative one, he now claims that it is because he had posts deleted in the past that he cannot continue. Of course his posts were ONLY deleted because he would NOT discuss the scriptures and none of his posts discussing the scriptures WERE deleted. This is of course, unreasonable and I think JB has demonstrated that his motives and claims certainly differed from his actions when he was put to the test.

    Now I think it very interesting to ask what would be said by the Baptists if a Catholic did this.  I think what would be said is what JB kept saying over and over: that we were afraid of the challenge. Well I'm not going to say that he was afraid; I will let you draw you own conclusions, but I think we have certainly proved that we are not.  And if any of his friends want to prove they can deal with those scriptures in an honest way they are welcome to do so.

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