Catholic Exchange

Here’s a Thought: Try English

Written by

Rich Leonardi

in

In Tuesday's Zenit, liturgical expert Fr. McNamara speaks to whether laymen should "read" priest-written homilies to Spanish-speaking congregations in the United States:

Some readers illustrated the huge difficulties faced by many priests seeking to accommodate the influx of Spanish-speaking parishioners throughout the continental United States, including in some unexpected regions.

One reader pointed out these difficulties are often compounded by the fact that not all immigrants speak the same variety of Spanish. And there are even rural immigrants from countries such as Peru and Mexico for whom Spanish is not their first language.

In such cases, even standard Spanish can leave them perplexed in a similar way as happens to English-speaking Americans visiting England who discover the truth behind Churchill's quip that they are two countries separated by the same language.

My father's childhood parish, Ss. Peter & Paul in Rochester, New York, was dominated by Italian-speaking families in the 1950s. To my knowledge, neither Fathers Geffel nor Fox, who served as pastors during that time, spoke a lick of Italian. No one suggested to them that they ought to "get in touch" with their parishioners by learning another tongue, much less delivering homilies in it.

Instead, they taught them English. Young Italian-speaking children like my father were taught the language of their host country at parish schools. Yet these days, it's expected that the Church in America "minister" to Hispanics bilingually. Seminarians are taught Spanish, special Masses are held, and parishes advertise their multiculturalism. (Our parish school dumped Latin in favor of Spanish two years ago, and has a presidential bauble to show for it.)

Here's a thought: rather than balkanizing — or at least bifurcating — the Church in America, why not take our cues from our forebears and teach immigrants English? Sure, parish schools are a thing of the past in many city neighborhoods. But I've got to think more than a few parishioners could teach it, and would if asked. Is anyone doing this? If not, why not?

Comments

55 responses to “Here’s a Thought: Try English”

  1. Guest Avatar
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    I agree. In my parish we have a VERY large Spanish population. I can't tell you how many times I'll go up to a church social or even just sitting at the church play yard and a group of the women, all of whom I know can speak English, will be chatting away right next to me in Spanish, completely ignoring me. And yes…I have made attempts to be cordial and have conversations…and it usually ends with the ladies saying something to each other in Spanish and giving me the brush off.

    And…if I may, with out sounding too much like the jealous sibling, …the Spanish and ''regular'' priests have no problem going to dinner or house blessings to different Spanish families…'it's part of their culture'…but he and the other priests would never dream of going to an English speaking house because of the diocese's protecting our children policy.

     

    Multicultural sensitivities trump that I guess.Frown

    I remember when we first began getting the influx of Spanish immigrants…I thought it was great. They are a very 'fruitful' bunch..or were. You couldn't go to a Spanish mass with out seeing at least 9 or 10 very pregnant women. But now…you can.

    I went to register my 8th child at the parish office and the Spanish ladies who are employed there all had a good giggle over my 'old fashioned ways' saying ''you know how to stop that don't you?" And they went into a torrent of converstion of how they had their tubes tied, or use this or that to 'prevent' 'that'.

    That's something I would hear from regular American ladies often enough in one way or another…so it seems in that one way…the Spanish speaking immigrants are taking on the secular American contraceptive culture and being 'assimilated' just 'fine'.

     Madeline 

     

     

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    I can't tell you how many times I'll go up to a church social or even just sitting at the church play yard and a group of the women, all of whom I know can speak English, will be chatting away right next to me in Spanish

    Of all the nerve; people actually preferring to communicate in their native language — the language of their heritage, the language that was spoken in their home as they grew up, the language they want to preserve as a part of who they are.

    I agree that their ignoring you or brushing you off is rude, but your first statement betrays your true feelings about their use of Spanish.

    Regarding the contraceptive culture seeping into the Hispanic community; that's as much a nasty byproduct of American Catholic pastoral silence on the subject as anything else.  So I would much prefer Hispanic Catholics hold fast to the culture of their country of nativity than adopt our corruption as their own.   I am a convert from 11 years ago and attended Mass with my wife since 2 years before we were married.  In a way, I have been Catholic for 21 years now and in all that time I haven't heard ONE homily — not a single one — on how the contraceptive mentality is destroying our culture as surely as the decadence of Sodom destroyed theirs.   And I live in an otherwise solid parish.   That Hispanic couples are buying into the contraceptive mentality is the CHURCH's (as in Church eclisiastical and congregational) fault as much as it is the fault of a corrupt American culture.

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    Asdwanamaker, I think you took Madeline's words out of context and interpeted them in the most negative manner possible.  There was nothing in what she wrote that indicated she has negative feelings toward Spanish per se.

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    Mary, I respectfully disagree with you. 

     

    The comment made was twofold: first that she objected to their use of Spanish in her presence, second that they ignored her.   I acknowledged the rudeness of their ignoring her.  But it was clear that she thought that their use of Spanish was also part of the problem.

     

    Among many Anglos, there is an appalling lack of understanding and sensitivity about why Hispanics prefer to communicate in Spanish.  If you or I were to move to Mexico, even if we spoke Spanish, and encountered other English-speaking Anglos there on a regular basis, we would prefer to communicate with them in English, even if we spoke Spanish.  It is a default to what we know best and with which we are most comfortable.   Why we expect anything different from Hispanics whose primary language is Spanish is ridiculous.

     

    Mr. Leonardi's assertion that if we just "taught them English" the "problem" would be solved is a gross oversimplification of the problem itself.   I know very intelligent Mexican immigrants who have been in the USA for more than 5 years who have taken conversational English classes and live and work in the English speaking business world every day.  But even to this day, they still find communicating effectively in English to be a challenge.  So, defaulting to Spanish when they are in the presence of other Spanish-speaking people is a relief for them.

     

    It's not as simple as "teach THEM English" so they can understand us.   As a Church, we have an equal obligation to disciple the faithful in the language with which they are most comfortable.    Frankly, to do any less is a repudiation of Pentecost.   Imagine if the Holy Spirit had demanded that every person present at Pentecost be required to understand in the language spoken in that region.

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    "If you or I were to move to Mexico, even if we spoke Spanish, and encountered other English-speaking Anglos there on a regular basis, we would prefer to communicate with them in English, even if we spoke Spanish."

     

      But would we also expect, or even demand, that the local parish church accommodate us anglos by providing us with English translations of the homilies?   

  6. Guest Avatar
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    No, asdwanamaker, you took her remark out of context and I can easily prove it by reinseting the part you cut out.

    Here is what you quoted I can't tell you how many times I'll go up to a church social or even just sitting at the church play yard and a group of the women, all of whom I know can speak English, will be chatting away right next to me in Spanish

    Here is what she actually said: I can't tell you how many times I'll go up to a church social or even just sitting at the church play yard and a group of the women, all of whom I know can speak English, will be chatting away right next to me in Spanish, completely ignoring me. It was ignoring her, even after she attempts to connect with them (as she went on to make clear) that offended her, not their speaking Spanish "in her presence" as you put it.

    But why don't we just ask her: Madeline do you object to the mere speaking of Spanish in your presence?

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    But would we also expect, or even demand, that the local parish church accommodate us anglos by providing us with English translations of the homilies?  

     

    First, are you sure that Hispanics are expecting or demanding this?   And second, if we comprised a significant percentage of the population in that parish (or region or country), then I would hope the parish would seek to provide English-language worship opportunities, yes.

     

    In many communities, Hispanics may make up as much as 25 percent of the population (or more).  Providing Spanish-language worship opportunities is one sure way of responding to the Great Commission.  Whereas refusing to do so, and in the process expecting Hispanics to first become proficient in English before they can effectively worship is a little like how some of the apostles mistakenly expected the Gentiles to become Jews before they could become Christians.

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    The year I lived in Senegal (a predominantly French-speaking country), I took French lessons, and attended a national church (I played keyboards for them). But I also attended the English-speaking Baptist church (I was Protestant at the time), I was so hungry to hear God's word proclaimed in my own language. It's not a matter of demanding it, but of yearning for it. There is a difference.

    I think the story of Pentecost does apply to this situation … people heard the word of God proclaimed in their own tongue. The fact that so many Protestant congregations offer multi-lingual ministries is an additional consideration. If we don't reach out, we may well lose them.

    The fact that forty years ago (or more) priests handled a situation a certain way does not necessarily mean we should do it the same way now. Yes, they should (and usually do) learn English. And yet, for all the reasons already mentioned, we have a choice: We can welcome the newcomers and build bridges (possibly by learning a little Spanish ourselves!). Or we can create artificial divisions by taking offense and pulling away.

    What does the law of love require of us? I think the answer is pretty clear.  

    Heidi Hess Saxton Editor, "Canticle" Magazine Blogroll

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    I can sympathize with both sides.  But, I will say that once we are moved to Peru (in less than 2 weeks) we are glad that we'll be able to worship at an English Mass, at least for the first month or two.  Same for confession.  Being able to worship in your mother language is far different than in new language.  One of our favorite priests learned Portuguese, then Latin for seminary, and finally English.  He was very fluent, but shared that in private prayer he still preferred Portuguese.  I don't believe this is a simple answer.  But I do know that kindness, and true charity is always called for, on the part of everyone involved.

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    BTW, I think the discussion actually got off track.   One issue not discussed in these posts would be whether or not priest-written homilies read in Spanish by lay persons is a good idea, independent of what we may or may not think about the need for Hispanics to learn English.

     

    IMHO, it isn't a good idea at all.   And for 2 reasons:

     

    1. Whether licit or not, having laypersons read the priest's homily isn't the same as the priest delivering his homily with the full weight of his charism.  It is impossible for the translator to interpret where the priest may want to more strongly or more subtly communicate certain ideas or points.

     

    2. It is a failure to recognize that Hispanics in the congregation may be seeking not just the homily — or the entire liturgy, for that matter — in their own language, but rather yearning for a liturgy that is culturally relevant to them.   (And before we get into a debate over whether priests should offer culturally-relevant liturgies, I would encourage you to read pastoral letters of the USCCB that endorse the practice — one such is "Renewing the Vision: A Framework for Catholic Youth Ministry").

     

    So, while Spanish-only and/or Spanish-dominant Catholics in the USA may appreciate the gesture, it is highly unlikely that such a gesture is enough to satisfy the hunger for worship in their primary language.   Particularly when the non-denominational evangelical fellowship down the street offers a culturally-relevant Spanish-language worship service.

     

     

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    Mary wrote:

    No, asdwanamaker, you took her remark out of context and I can easily prove it by reinseting the part you cut out.

     

    Madeline's very first statement was "I agree."   Agree with what?  With the author's assertion that Spanish-dominant parishioners should be taught English, rather than accomodate them in Spanish.  It wasn't ONLY that Madeline justifiably feels snubbed when Hispanic parishoners will talk with each other in Spanish when she is in their presence and incapable of understanding what they are saying. 

     

    I agree that laypersons reading the priest's homily in Spanish is a bad idea, but not because communicating with Spanish-dominant persons in Spanish is a bad idea.  Rather because doing so brings a minimalist approach to addressing the Spanish-dominant person's need to worship in the language they best understand.

     

    So, while I respect your opinion, Mary, you've proved nothing. 

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    Again, speaking from my experiences as a Protestant, I've seen congregations who have reached out to various ethnic groups in this way, and have seen that — rather than fragment a congregation — these efforts have been richly rewarded by an increased sense of unity and community.  (Clearly I am referring here to those parishes in which a significant portion of the community is of a single ethnic group.)

    I'd also suggest that the approach Mr. Leonardi proposes reflects a personal or cultural value, rather than an inherently Christian one. We Americans are perceived as arrogant by many other cultures of the world, at least in part because we demand that others interact with us on our terms, rather than attempt to meet others part way. Even a few basic phrases and greetings spoken by a fellow parishioner (even better, the pastor) can make the difference between welcoming a stranger … or making him or her feel like an outsider.

    Heidi Hess Saxton Editor, "Canticle" Magazine Blogroll

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    My own personal experience comes from all four of my grandparents, who immigrated to this country from Poland. So yes, I am the product of immigrants, also – and am proud of it. However, my grandparents looked upon it as a goal and honor to assimilate into the culture of the United States. Perhaps, that was a better thing to aspire to in their day, than it is now; but none the less, they did it. Polish was spoken at home, amongst the family. However, when mixed company was involved, English (however broken) was spoken only as it would have been considered rude to exclude anyone from a conversation.

    My grandparents on my Dad's side both passed away before I was born; and I have the recollections of my parents to rely on for insights on them.  However, first hand memories remind me that my maternal grandmother and grandfather both became fluent in common English and learned enough to become naturalized citizens.

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    I work with several Mexican immigrants.  Several have become US citizens, another is about to take her citizenship test next week.  All speak English.  Some better than others.  All prefer to speak in Spanish when they are speaking to one another at the office.   All recognize my limits when speaking in Spanish and both speak to me in English and help me to learn to speak Spanish more frequently. 

    It is no slight to me that they prefer to communicate in their native language.   It also does not reflect poorly on the immense pride they have in their US citizenship.   

    Assimilation is the adoption of a new culture as your own at the expense of your native culture.  Acculturation is adapting to a new culture and living in it comfortably while preserving the values, traditions and language of your native culture.   I much prefer US Hispanics acculturate because of the opportunity they have to help restore a more God- and family-first approach to everyday living.   I also have every desire to celebrate the richness Hispanic culture offers us.   I have no desire to see Hispanic immigrants and their families adopt a corrupt US culture as their own.

     

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    In communities with a large Hispanic population, I think it's reasonable for the one or more parishes within the diocese to have a Spanish Mass available at least once over the course of the weekend, so that those who are in the process of learning English or are not entirely comfortable with it have the opportunity to worship in their native language.  In traveling to Europe and to Montreal, I have found it completely unnecessary to learn a foreign language in order to function in those countries (although I have heard that French Canadians refuse to speak English to English-speaking Canadians, but they are completely willing to speak English to Americans!).  English has become a very universal language, at least in the touristy cities within foreign countries.  Menus, museum guides, etc are always available in English.  That being said, I certainly think that immigrants who live in America should make it a priority to learn the language here.

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    Ironic as it may sound, I generally worship in Spanish and usually pray in Spanish or Latin, and I have become convinced that I do this because it allows me a clean break from a rather un-Catholic past which happened to coincide with my prior predominantly English-speaking ways. I am sensitive, nevertheless, to Madeline's concerns, though I'll express them in a different way. I have been involved in organizing several retreats through our parish which I will describe as "English-speaking," for lack of a better term. And I have been frustrated in my attempts to recruit some of my Spanish-speaking friends onto the retreats. It is not uncommon to hear in response that they'd like to go on the retreat in Spanish. Nevertheless, the obvious reason for a lack of "Spanish-speaking" retreats is a lack of Spanish-speaking persons to organize them. And many of the people I have spoken to about coming on the "English-speaking" retreats are capable of functioning in English. I have even offered the argument that in order to organize "Spanish-speaking" retreats, we need Spanish-speaking organizers familiar with the particular charisms of the retreats involved. And that can only happen if bilingual people make the struggle to learn the charism the way it is offered (i.e. in English) in order to translate it later. These efforts have, unfortunately, not born much fruit. And mostly, I think it's a shame.

    It's also a shame that some might propose the reading of translated homilies by laypersons as a "solution" to the shortage of Spanish-speaking priests. The only solution to this shortage is for bilingual people, particularly those who grow up in Spanish-speaking households, to learn how to hear the call of God to the priesthood. And hearing the call, they must have developed the courage to follow that call without reservation. If there is a shortage of Spanish-speaking priests, why not look to the Spanish-speaking and bilingual communities and ask the simple question of whether the faith is taught and lived in its fullness. If it is, priests will emerge, and if priests do not emerge, then it must be concluded that the faith in its fullness is not lived and taught in these communities.

    Now, this latter conclusion is not notable among Spanish-speaking communities. English-speaking communities are now generating their own priest shortages, in no small measure to due a lack of commitment to the fullness of living and teaching the faith. But it remains true that the most feasible solution to linguistic deficiency in the priesthood is to cultivate priests from the necessary linguistic community.

    That said, it is false to suggest that the countries from which Spanish-speaking people emigrate are paragons of Catholic virtue. Mexico, for example, already has a national birth rate of less than 2 children per woman, less than the birthrate in the United States. Hispanic immigrants, however, have a birth rate approaching 3 children per woman – and most of these immigrants come from Mexico. One conclusion we should draw from this is that morality practiced in Mexican immigrant communities in the United States is superior by far to the morality lived and practiced in Mexico itself. Former Mexican President Vicente Fox once commented that he viewed his country's emigrants as his nation's entrepreneurs – and indeed the rate of small business ownership among Hispanic immigrants is higher than that of native-born Hispanics and higher even than that of native-born Anglos. It is almost certainly higher than that of Mexicans in Mexico (though the existence of a very large informal economy in Mexico makes this a difficult comparison).

    As goes entrepreneurship, so also virtue. Though as I commented before, living and teaching virtue among immigrant communities is often difficult (this I know from direct experience). But immigrant communities in the United States succeed at it far more frequently than even native-born Mexicans in Mexico. I have come to the conclusion that this can be attributed to the general hopefulness of immigrant communities: the same hope that drives entrepreneurship also drives the practice of virtue. Still, there is a lot of room for improvement; vocations are not surging in immigrant communities. And they could. And fostering vocations in persons who are already bilingual has the added advantage of tying the service of needs in a particular community back to that community itself. Subsidiarity. Hmmm, it has a nice ring to it.

     

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    And yet, for all the reasons already mentioned, we have a choice: We can welcome the newcomers and build bridges (possibly by learning a little Spanish ourselves!). Or we can create artificial divisions by taking offense and pulling away.

    Or we can set up false dichotomies rooted in ideological convictions.

    I'd also suggest that the approach Mr. Leonardi proposes reflects a personal or cultural value, rather than an inherently Christian one.

    Leaving aside that that is an assumption, the fact is, American parishes have long recognized the unique contributions of various immigrant groups. Italian-American parishes, for instance, have hosted St. Joseph's Day tables in March and held special devotions to St. Anthony. Latin-American parishes would reflect these contributions through artistic styles — e.g., statuary, crucifixes — devotions to Our Lady of Guadalupe, and cultural festivals. But the recent notion that this recognition requires bilingualism has more to do with multicultural ideologies than fulfilling the Great Commission.

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    Claire wrote:

    That being said, I certainly think that immigrants who live in America should make it a priority to learn the language here.

    In my experience, most Hispanic immigrants do make English a priority.  Without presuming what you think about whether or not that's true, I do believe that the perception perpetuated by the media is that Spanish-dominant Hispanics refuse to make the effort and, sadly, that is but more thing to fuel the racial prejudices of so many.

     

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    Mr. Leonardi wrote:

    But the recent notion that this recognition requires bilingualism has more to do with multicultural ideologies than fulfilling the Great Commission.

    And yet, you've offered no proof to support that assertion.  Please demonstrate how an effort to promote worship in one's native language is rooted in multicultural ideology.

  20. Guest Avatar
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    And yet, you've offered no proof to support that assertion. Please demonstrate how an effort to promote worship in one's native language is rooted in multicultural ideology.

    Perform a Google search of the terms "bilingualism" and "multiculturalism."

     

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    I really think Rich did make that clear. This is new phenomena.  The empahsis on providing ministry in the another language has trumped a prior emphasis on helping the foreigners assimilate by learning English.  This has change has occured while "multiculturalism" has become a fad.  There is no real stretch in seeing the connection.

    But asdwanamaker, you seem to have the experience and interest to contribute productively to the substance of this discussion, which is: should parishes be helping with ESL classes and, if so, how can that best be implemented.

    I think if we focused our collective attention on that instead of accusing each other, this would be a much more fruitful conversation.

  22. Guest Avatar
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    Perform a Google search of the terms "bilingualism" and "multiculturalism."

    In other words, it's not incumbent upon you to provide evidence to support your point.   Nice. 

  23. Guest Avatar
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    It's not a stretch to suppose that ministering to immigants in their native language is the result of honest reflection on what to do in light of Church teaching. John Paul himself exhorts:

    The families of migrants, especially in the case of manual workers and farm workers, should be able to find a homeland everywhere in the Church. This is a task stemming from the nature of the Church, as being the sign of unity in diversity. As far as possible these people should be looked after by priests of their own rite, culture and language (Familiaris Consortio 77, emphasis mine).

    That some will exaggerate this to the point of political ideology is a postulate in search of a detractor. Original Sin yet remains real and operative, and some will use the teachings of the Church to further a political agenda. But not all bilingual ministry constitutes multiculturalism; indeed I strongly suspect that most of it does not. It is nevertheless true that bilingual parishes are routinely divided into two communities that rarely interact, notwithstanding the stern denials by some.

    The change in emphasis has occurred in coincidence with the appearance of multiculturalism. But it is hard for me to see a necessary link between the bilingual parish and multiculturalism itself, especially given these teachings of John Paul (which reappear in Ecclesia in America and in other writings of his). The real question to be posed is whether the practices of a particular parish are aimed at fostering real unity in the diversity of community (i.e. has the parish acted honestly in the intentional order?) and whether the activities undertaken in pursuit of this aim are done honestly (i.e. have the parish's activities in and of themselves been moral, and where moral failings have occurred, as inevitably they will, has the parish endeavored to correct the failings?).

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    Asdwanmaker,

        I wasn't trying to imply that Hispanic immigrants don't make learning English a priority.  I just wanted to clarify that while I think it's good for them to have an opportunity to worship in their native language, I still think that they should use English in other contexts. 

  25. Guest Avatar
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    There's an element to this discussion that resembles the discussions surrounding the Church's obligations towards the poor. In No. 47 of Familiaris Consortio, John Paul II observes

    The Christian family is thus called upon to offer everyone a witness of generous and disinterested dedication to social matters, through a "preferential option" for the poor and disadvantaged. Therefore, advancing in its following of the Lord by special love for all the poor, it must have special concern for the hungry, the poor, the old, the sick, drug victims and those who have no family.

    There have been, and continue to be, those who justify liberation theology (whether called by this name or no) using exactly this language. Ang John Paul is absolutely unequivocal about the need for exercising a preferential option for the poor. However, it so happens that liberation theology is a way of bondage wholly opposed to true ministry to the poor, and therefore, wholly opposed to Christ and His Church. The same might be said about the notion of unity in diversity on the one hand and multiculturalism on the other. The former is a proper launching point for the Church's teachings on such matters. The latter is a political ideology which, often as not, winds up enslaving both its adherents and those who are subjected to it.

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    I detect quite a bit of resentment in most of the comments. It's there because we can all sense that this bilingual situation is not really right. Why is that? Are we not all descendents of immigrants and some of us (me) can show naturalization papers? So let me talk about this naturalized guy. Anglo-Saxons didn't have to assimilate, they ran the country. Irish, French, Polish, Italian, Portuguese and others painfully had to. We were ridiculed when we didn't. There were no "No Fumar" signs anywhere. When we couldn't read and understand the English we knew we were in trouble. So we learned English and the more we learned the more we liked it. Never gave up what we had just acquired more. That's the way to do it.

    The Hispanics are doing the same thing. The difference is that it's being done with a lot more help from the gov't, church and community. That's not a bad thing. Here's where it becomes bad. When our Polish pastor went to the Irish bishop, he was told that he must make more progress in Americanizing the parish; mind you everything right down to the candle holders was bought with immigrant's money. Today when all other Catholic schools in the city closed, SS Cyril & Methodius still has a convent and the Sisters still run the school that teaches mostly Hispanic kids. Example #2 is the Nat'l Shrine of Devine Mercy in Stockbridge MA, a former seminary that was again built by Polish immigrants and the priests who were formed there came from within their ranks. It made sense to dedicate it to Saint Faustina Kowalska and so it is. On Devine Mercy Sunday there was always a visiting bishop from Poland and in the morning was a Mass in Polish that had a big attendance. In the afternoon was the English-Spanish celebration. The Polish crowd always stayed for the 3pm Chaplet. That was a good and workable arrangement.

    The morning Mass as of two years ago was discontinued. This Shrine is something that developed organically, it has a history and tradition. The great benefactors are still Polish-Americans. White Eagle metal works had their semi parked on the grounds last yr. as they were repairing the roofs. Spanish and all other ethnic groups have always been welcome there. This is a bad policy that the liberals in gov't and the liberals in the church are cultivating and the result is the same as if the parents were taking Billy's lawn mowing money and giving it to Caitlyn to buy make-up. No, the Hispanics have to pull their own weight and have the manners to acknowledge the natives and give them consideration, just out of gratitude, not the other way around. Until things change I will keep making the statement: They don’t impress me.

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    In other words, it's not incumbent upon you to provide evidence to support your point. Nice.

    No, what it means is that little effort is required to establish the connection.

    And HomeschoolNFPdad, I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of your posts. But I do think the brief line in Familiaris Consortio is a slender reed upon which to balance the trend of bilingualism, given the overwhelming prevalence of multiculturalism in contemporary American society.

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    Do I just need to give up any hope that there will be substantive conversation in this thread on what parishes might do the help Hispanics assimilate into the coutnry and learn English?

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    Mkochan, we've had comments that the majority of Hispanics do know some English but are not motivated to learn more and assimilate. My response is that there's no incentive to assimilate because everything that they want or could want is given to them in Spanish. Why bother unless one is very motivated. They have shown us that they are not. Here's the rule: The more we do, the less they do, human nature.

    Probably not the comment that's going to rouse this group around midnight.

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    Mary,

    As a boy in the early 1980s, I recall a friend excitedly telling me that his teacher had declared the American "melting pot" defunct as a model or metaphor for assimilation.  It had been replaced by the "salad bowl."  The idea was that subgroups retained their distinct "flavors" and identity, yet still formed a coherent whole.  Twenty-odd years hence, you might say the salad bowl has been replaced by the divided dinner plate, with predictably incoherent results.  Hence the difficulty of substantive conversation.

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    Rich, I just thought your question at the end of the article was good and was worth discussing. My parish is actually having this very conversation right now, so I thought it would be pertinent.  I appear to be a minority of one. I give up.

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    Stop giving away language courses for nothing. If it doesn't cost the student anything it isn't worth anything. Charge at least a jar of salsa.

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    I think this discussion is a little disheartening.  We may look back on what our great-grandparents accomplished with rose-colored glasses.  Historically- it is the second generation that truly learns the language.  The first generation always has a problem.  Both of my great-grandparents immigrated from Poland when they were children and were very successful learning the language- neither of their parents ever really did.  I think we will find it much the same with the hispanic population.  In addition (much like the hispanics) they moved into ethnic neighborhoods.  My great-grandparetns and grandparents grew up with almost entirely polish neighbors. I think this can be evidenced in the neighborhood churches in many eastern cities.  ie. Cleveland still has a church that has Hungarian masses and a church that has Polish masses.  Therefore, the need to learn english was really a function of an education rather than in order to do business.  Most business could be conducted in their neighborhood with polish speaking people. 

    Another thing we need to remember is that the mass was in Latin.  The need to worship in their own tongue wasn't even an issue.  Father Corapi notes that Vatican II says it is good that we should worship in our own tongue.  It is the way we think and the way that we pray.  Having Spanish-language masses is not only a good thing, but what the church should do. 

    The church is not a political being and we are the bride of Christ.  Ministering to her people in the best way possible is the only choice she can make.  I think we as the church needs to support all of our members. 

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    Mary wrote:

    But asdwanamaker, you seem to have the experience and interest to contribute productively to the substance of this discussion, which is: should parishes be helping with ESL classes and, if so, how can that best be implemented.

    I think it's a delicate thing. Should parishes with high percentages of immigrant parishioners offer ESL classes? If they can, yes. But they have to take care; offering the class should say, "Knowing English will help you in all facets of your lives here."  Equal care must be given to avoid communicating: "We have no intention of meeting you where you are by offering Spanish-language liturgies and THAT is why we're offering you the ESL class."   The minute the Hispanic parishioner believes that the message is the latter and not the former, he/she will be on their way out the door.

    Vatican II calls us to full, conscious and ACTIVE participation in the liturgy. The Mexican immigrants I know would be far more likely to participate in the liturgy fully, consciously and actively when it is offered to them in Spanish, even though they have a good command of English. Offering ESL classes today isn't going to make them more comfortable with worship in English today. If we offer the classes and still accept and honor their need to worship in Spanish, then I think we've struck the right balance.

    I think if we focused our collective attention on that instead of accusing each other, this would be a much more fruitful conversation.

    Agreed. At the same time, this thread has shown how explosive a topic this can be. I don't want to accuse ANYONE here of racism because it's unlikely present here, but the truth is that there's plenty of racism in society that rears its ugly head in the call for English as official language.  That makes me very sensitive to how my Hispanic brothers and sisters feel.  Most Hispanic immigrants come to the USA as Catholics. Personally, I'd like us as Church to do everything we can to help them remain Catholic once they are here. Our corrupt culture makes that challenging enough; add to that mix that our separated brothers and sisters are enticing Hispanic Catholics with culturally relevant worship experiences and our job is even tougher.

    That's where I'm coming from.

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    <blockquote> Of all the nerve; people actually preferring to communicate in their native language — the language of their heritage, the language that was spoken in their home as they grew up, the language they want to preserve as a part of who they are. <blockquote>

    I find it divisive, and it should be discouraged.

    The Spanish population is allowed more freedom and leeway in parish functions then the English speaking. For example,when I first moved here 20 year ago, we tried to start a 'corpus Christi' celebration with adoration and a procession. It was snuffed, until the Spanish came. Great…right?

    Well…yeah…but only if you speak Spanish. Everything is in Spanish. This discourages the English speaking  parishioners from going. That is also with the divine mercy celebration as well, something the English where trying from the 80's on, and not until a few cute little Spanish ladies started was it allowed. They took over the prayer meeting which was English, and it is now all Spanish.

    And yes…I do find it rude and upsetting. One time it was so obviously a snub and mean spirited it had me in tears. And it seems to be the rule, not exception.

    If I were a Spanish speaking lady at a parish function and someone at your table speaks to you in English, and if you and your 3 or 4 friends all know English, you should speak English for the sake of the Englsih persons at the table.  It's the gracious thing to do.

    just my humble…English speaking opinion.

    Madeline

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    <blockquote>But why don't we just ask her: Madeline do you object to the mere speaking of Spanish in your presence?<blockquote>

    Of course not.

    I am offended when I know they are snubbing, which I thought I made it clear.

    I have always been the most enthusiastic supporter of the Spanish population…

    When I saw them being allowed to do the Corpus Christi and the Divine mercy and all the other different things they do…(since they do naturally get involved with the church and most of the men belong to the KOC) I was very excited because we (the…er.. natives so to speak) were trying for years to get these things implemented only to find ourselves basically left out because even the readings and homilies and prayers are all done in Spanish!!

    And the Natives still can't get permission for themselves…because it was 'part of their culture', but not our culture (because everything was sucked out of our culture by Vatican II revisions, we all know this).

     I think thats wrong, and I don't necessarily think it is the fault of the Spanish.  

    Thats just how it is.

    Madeline

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    I see we are having a spirited debate here.  My two cents:

    Immigrants come here out of economic necessity.  Many have little formal education.  And yet too many American's want to sneer at them and scoff "learn to speak English."  I don't believe our Lord would be pleased.  I'm all for teaching English to any and all who wish to learn, but in the meantime, the Church is called to minister to them where they are, and in fact to stoop towards them in service as it would for any other vulnerable group.  Does this mean all Church events should be completely bilingual?  No, but where reasonable accomodations can be made, they ought to be made.

    I think it is a wise thing to begin training new priests and encouraging older ones to learn Spanish.  The trend of Spanish-speaking immigrants is most likely to increase, not decrease.  I have noticed a lot of veiled cynicism about this here on CE, and I fear, a tinge of bigotry.  Change can be difficult, but I hope and pray that this influx will revitalize the Church in America.

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    "I think it is a wise thing to begin training new priests and encouraging older ones to learn Spanish."

     

     That's not a bad idea, but it's also important to nurture and encourage vocations within the Hispanic community.  Among Catholic immigrant groups in this country, I think that the Vietnamese are way ahead of the Hispanics in the vocations department.   And there is no reason that a parish with a sizable Hispanic population cannot BOTH offer liturgies in Spanish AND help those with limited English skills to learn English.  

     

     

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    God loves you .

    Come to this country, learn effective English in a year or go back to where they speak the language you clearly prefer.

    I come from the most primitively stubborn folk in Europe – the Calabrese Italians. Never did any in my presence think to state that they should be treated as ‘equally Italian’ (frankly, whatever that is even in Italia) in language or day-to-day custom. You get here, you become more commonly American – or, you may as well just go ‘home’.

    Then again, I thought all these Spanish speakers (who by dialect nearly hate each other) were going to ‘taint’ us with big-family Christianity – guess not, huh?

    Remember, I love you, too

    Reminding that we are all on the same side – His,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or … yahoo.com)

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    Asdwanamaker wrote: “but the truth is that there's plenty of racism in society that rears its ugly head in the call for English as official language.  That makes me very sensitive to how my Hispanic brothers and sisters feel.” What a waste of sensitivity. Already when I go to any gov’t office I hear business being conducted in Spanish. I ask again why should they learn English? We can’t even give them the logical reply: because it’s the official language! In all major cities there are enclaves where you would not be able to communicate in English. The locals know that and they stay out of there.

    Stirling wrote: “I think it is a wise thing to begin training new priests and encouraging older ones to learn Spanish.” This one goes to the next level. Now were saying forget what we want you to do, we’ll do what you want. These two hombres need to get a serious grip. Anytime there’s an invasion of a country those are the conditions that the invader imposes. Do either of you know the difference in the definition of the words, guest and host? I know that you feel that Christ wants us to go out of our way to help others and that’s true but Christ also doesn’t want us to debilitate others and to diminish their potential. It’s a sin to be rude to your host. It’s a sin not to be appreciative of the assistance that you’re getting from others. It’s a sin to come to the wedding feast unprepared and forcing your way in on your own terms. Rome gave us the concept of citizenship and had requirements of their citizens, those requirements were legally enforced. Then came the invaders, the Vandals and Visigoths, they were not interested in citizenship, or law or any of that. We had a bloody Civil War to preserve the Union. What gives you misguided do-gooders the right to start taking it apart?

    By all means help the Hispanics or Vietnamese or whoever wants to be in your church. But respect yourself and those whose name is on the stained glass windows. You will then garner the respect of the guest and start building a united parish that way.

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    A woman came by the parish office the other day and asked if we were interested in having a free ad in an upcoming bi-linugual publication that will be printed in a few months.  The publication will be like a "yellow-pages" type book.  I responded that we would be interested in having our parish listed in the book.  She said that she was pleased as we were only the 2nd Catholic parish that accepted the offer and that she aleady had ads for 80 Protestant churches that were offering Christian worship in Spanish in the Charlotte area. 

    The author of this article does not see things from where I do.  I have been a priest for 12 years and I have been involved in Hispanic ministry for all of these years.  I have celebrated more than 1000 Masses in Spanish.  The Charlotte area is one of the fastest growing areas for Hispanics by percentage in the country.  I minister to illegal Hispanics living in trailers and crowded apartments and to some of the wealthiest Anglos in town and to many people in-between.  I learned Spanish to serve the people of our flock.  Most of the Hispanics coming to Charlotte were baptized Catholic.  The reality is that they are going to worship where they feel welcome.  If not here, they will go down the road to Assemblies of God, Baptist or wherever.  We have a national and a diocesan pastoral plan for Hispanic Ministry.  I think that author here is far removed from pastoral care.  We have that same attitude here in Charlotte from people sitting in law offices.  I celebrated 7 Masses this weekend – 6 in English and 1 in Spanish.  I also baptized 7 children this weekend, but in that case the numbers were reversed – 6 in Spanish and 1 in English.

     

    In peace,  Fr. Mark Lawlor

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    & by the way, we do offer classes in English every Sunday.

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    Demographers tell us the next wave of immigrants, both legal and illegal, will be from China and Indonesia. Both English and Spanish speakers will need to crack some books to give homilies and devotions in Mandarin, eh?

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    "………..what parishes might do the help Hispanics assimilate into the coutnry and learn English?"

     Many parishes have school classrooms or meeting rooms that sit empty many evenings.  Those  rooms should be used constantly for English as a 2nd language classes and citizenship classes.

    I made this exact proposal in detail to this Archdiocese 20 years ago.  I was laughed at or ignored by several pastors and in many offices in the chancery.  The Cardinal told me personally that the future of Los Angeles and of California was speaking Spanish and I was the one who needed to learn a new language!   

     

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    Right you are Rock and guess which established group will be most resistant of Mandarin? Because I was raised to show a higher level of respect for priests, I will only use one barrel of the shot gun on Fr. Lawler. Don’t worry I’m way out of range.

    “Most of the Hispanics coming to Charlotte were baptized Catholic.  The reality is that they are going to worship where they feel welcome.” Islam wants them., JW’s want them. There are cults out there that’ll gladly give them what they want in exchange for membership.  “If not here, they will go down the road to Assemblies of God, Baptist or wherever.” Substitute a wishy-washy Catholic parish for “whatever”. So now we’re just one of the Protestant denominations. Fr. Lawler, the Church is not in competition with the mega churches or the "friendly" churches. “We have a national and a diocesan pastoral plan for Hispanic Ministry.  I think that author here is far removed from pastoral care.” Father is it called Liberation Theology? If so, it’s been declared a heresy. For the rest of us to learn Spanish is not a plan, it's surrender. “We have that same attitude here in Charlotte from people sitting in law offices.” Imagine, people in gov’t wanting to know where the illegals are in their town. It isn’t enough for you that already they can take care of everything in Spanish, they don't need you as an interpreter, now you don’t want them to come forward.  How is that going to establish them as productive citizens who won’t be at the mercy of unscrupulous employers? How is that going to make them reliable and respected?

    This just gets more complicated and crazier. For those of us who want to help those in the shadows, fine. Christians have always done that. Helping the least among us is the Christian way. However you can’t dispense with the law of the state and the law of the Church. The Catholic Church can’t bend and twist and advertise in competition for those who are just looking for a hand out. We don’t need them. The souls that are seeking the church in which they were supposedly baptized will find it. The Church is not hiding. For the Church to base its modus operandi on the current immigration mess is another quagmire. We’re just making our way out of the sexual revolution that swept the church in the sixties. We’re reaping the contraception harvest from the abortion killing fields. Here we were also in competition with Protestant churches who took our divorced and contracepting sheep.

    What’s stopping these lovers of Spanish from building their own great Hispanic parishes under the protection of a magnanimous bishop? Stop it already; everyone can see what nonsense this is. Minister to the poor, the needy, and the confused but don’t create a poor, needy and confused Church in the process.

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    I know this doesn't directly address what language the masses should be in, but I want to share something encouraging on the subjects brought up. Before I retired due to injury in a warehouse I worked with many people whose 1st language was Spanish so I had to learn a little Spanish to be able to communicate. The warehouse main floor had 97 percent Spanish speaking people and 3 percent had an English background. That was a total of 60 men total and only 3 percent were bilingual or English only. I come from an Hispanic family that didn't allow my generation to speak Spanish because they themsleves were persecuted in the schools for speaking Spanish. My siblings and I then had to learn Spanish in school.

    Encouraging the people that you want to get out of their shells is a great thing but you have to have a desire to help, to care, to lift up people from wherever they may be. Those who are new to this country (not just Spanish) come in with all kinds of concepts of the good and the bad. They want to make a living but they are afraid to reach out. I was frustrated in the warehouse because the people would talk around me in Spanish even though they knew some English. I was new to the job even though I was 50 at the time. It took me 6 months to get to know these people and gain their trust. They had trouble even working among the people of their own culture with the differences between the different states in Mexico. I found the way to get to know them is to talk about their families and in the process their language cleaned up and they started to speak with respect and honor toward one another, and they worked in greater unity. I spoke to them mostly in English and they could sense whether I was real or not. They would tell me that their English was bad so they preferred to speak Spanish. I told them that their job potential was stunted because of their language barrier, and I encouraged them to go to school. I also told them to watch TV and listen to radio in English and by the time I finished 12 years there the Latino workers around me all spoke fluent English because of my encouragement.

    Now I see Latino people all around me speaking Spanish in the Los Angeles area. I do the same thing I did in the warehouse and it's having a great effect on their self image. Encouragement can go a long way if it's backed up by true concern.

    Henry (The Henry part of henrylil)

     

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    Henry, thanks for calming my nerves before I turn in.

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    I, for my part, would love to get back to teaching English in our parishes. Years ago our parish council decided that they didn't want to duplicate in our parish what the general community already does. So they voted against teaching English when we have a high school across the street that can teach our parishioners. I think it would be unifying to teach within the parish but it is hard to get the manpower to cover the CCD classes much less go to teaching English. But I think teaching English within the church context could clarify the idea that Americanization doesn't have to mean forgetting church teaching on virtue.

    In the 60's I taught English as a 2nd language in my 1st parish with a friend from college who had become my church sponsor. I have muscular dystrophy so I am limited in my ability to carry out my desire to make this a reality but it's sure tempting after reading everyone's comments. The people I know are really good hearted neighbors and parishioners but there is a definite divide between the older English speaking and the Spanish speaking parishioners. 

    The Lil part of henrylil.

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    Wow — this has all made me feel very blessed.  Maybe my eyes are just closed to some underlying tubulence, but I think my own parish has very peaceful and appreciative relationships between the hispanic and the anglos.

    I love the Spanish language although my vocabulary is limited. I spoke it at 3 because my family was in Cuba and I was cared for by Cubans.  But my family was forced out at the time of the Revolution and came back to the states. I still love to hear Spanish. In fact, I sometimes start to ache to hear it if I have gone for a very long time with out hearing it. My husband and I have gone to the Spanish Mass at our parish sometimes — it seems even easier to concentrate on the Mass in Spanish.

    But I definitely support English as our official national language. And I do think that allowing too many Spanish speakers in and not pressuring them to assimilate can damage the fabric of our society, which God knows, does not need any more damage.

    Still, I just don't see these controversies causing a problem at the level of my parish, so I think that must be a great blessing and due to some serious behind the scenes work by our priests.

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    Wow!  I can't believe Fr Mark, my pastor, posted!

    We have an ESL program at my parish sponsored by my church.  It is open specifically to all Catholics in the diocese.  I think it's a great program, however, I'm concerned about its success because  it appears to me that many, many volunteers are required.  Also, the programs are offered after the weekly Spanish Mass.  I'm afraid that the English speaking parishoners will be condemed as unwilling to help, but I feel the program is huge and burdensome for voluteers:  drivers, translators, aids, paper stuffers, teachers, babysitters…..Plus Sunday afternoon is traditionally family time in the South.

    For certain masses, like Holy Thursday and Holy Days of Obligation a VERY weird thing happens in my parish.  It is the bilingual Eucharistic Prayer.  Every other verse is in Spanish or English.  I don't know who this benefits or who understands it.  Go back to Latin with a missal if you want to use the Universal Language of our faith.  Not to mention that the 500 English speakers are sacrificed for the +/- 20 Spanish bilingual speakers. The readings are done in both languages and Fr Mark gives the homily in English and an abbreviated form in Spanish.  (I speak Spanish so I know the difference.) I won't attend these already poorly attended masses.  I search out English only which for me and my Children (the future of the Church) is not a confusing distraction from the sacrifice of the mass.

    Fr Mark says that he ministers to all his flock.  He is a holy priest and hard working.  His job has just been made harder, because our new associate pastor speaks NOT A WORD of English!  NONE!  In fact, he just was in Mexico trying to get his paperwork right so that he could get a Visa to be here as a priest. (Aren't there any Catholics who need a spanish speaking priest in Mexico?)   In ministering to the many illegals in the growing Mexican population, the Charlotte diocese has chosen to throw away the spiritual needs of the materially well off, but often times spiritually poor, members who built up these churches.  Even the holy and well meaning Fr Mark lives within the framework of a 24 hour day.

    My parish doesn't have a two track religious ed program which is terrific!  (Many do, which is divisive since the kids speak english.)The children from homes where Spanish is the first language are being taught in English, which they all speak anyway. 

    I have two objections to pervasive stereotypes.  First, all English speakers are NOT anglo.  Don't tell the WASPS who persecuted my brown skinned Italian grandparents that my "slimey" relatives are anglo.  My husband is scandanavian. Not anglo.  So quit lumping us together.  The stereotype denies the struggle we endured as minorities.  (I'm sure the Irish Catholics would agree that they're not anglos either!)

    Second Beef:  Hispanic Catholics hold a monopoly on morality.  That's a gross generalization which is not based on data either.  NPR reported several years ago that 3rd generation Hispanic females had the highest high school drop out rate in the country!  Out of wedlock births were rampant too.  In my area, the many, many single hispanic men drink, carouse, and drink and drive such that the hispanic community is finally creating a task force to deal with the out of control issue.  (And the problem should be solved from within.)

    I think something greater than "welcoming the stranger" is occurring here.  I think the posts dealing with Liberation Theology and the political agenda of "multiculturism"  (which I recognized as a political thing years ago and opposed as a graduate student much to the dismay of my subjective grade) are driving this.  If the bishops want to save the soul of american catholicism then they should focus on pre cana preparation, and teaching the moral truths of the faith such as Theology of the Body.  The huge thrust should be on serving the children you already have.  Just like my husband and I must be able to raise and educate the children we have before we expand our family.  The bishops will only succeed in losing the new flock just like they have lost many children from the flock they had.

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    I'll never dare to call you Anglo Elka. So Fr. Mark is your pastor? Mention goral to him and give him my love, if appropriate. I do have a weak spot for priests and I give them the benefit of any doubt. The vernacular has solved one problem and created another. Our Church is Universal, it should not prefer one group over another. St. Francis who is probably the favorite Saint of more people than any other had the Church clamp down on him and his brand of asceticism because it could never be universal. I fear the same thing happening with this Hispanic push. It will solve one problem and create and expose others. The church is all Spanish in So. and Ctr. America and that has done nothing in preventing Mexican soldiers from shooting at Guatamalens or Salvadorens who are crossing the border. The premise of this camaign is all wrong.

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    PS. Justice Clerance Thomas is being interviewed by Rush this very minute.

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    Darn!  I missed the Judge, I was taking my nap!  (my big secret to staying young:  napping.  Dont' babies look terrific?!)

    Goral, I'll tell Fr Mark, "Hey!"  (that's a formal "hello" in NC).  I agree with the Universal aspect.  We have a large Indian population in my parish.  My old parish was/is a safe haven for Vietnamese.  Over the 25 years that they have been members of that parish they have enriched it and become richer (spiritually and materially) too.  They have truly built up the church in every way.  Now they're learning Spanish!  I must say, you should hear their accent!  Privately, they're disgusted.  But they're too humble, thankful, generous, well, virtuous in general, to say anything.  It's been interesting to see the difference in behavior of the two immigrant groups and the treatment by the established parish community.  (And remember, at first the Vietnamese were refugees, fleeing war and communism, as oppossed to the current group of economic advantage seekers (nothing intrinsically wrong with that either.)  I don't speak much Latin, but I'll learn it to preserve Universality. 

     

     

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    I wasn't sure if you guys have radios down there. Been in Charlotte a few times on business, loved it. I still e-mail with a business assoc. from there. The Judge was on for over an hr. What a guy!

    With Italian and Spanish you're just a stones throw away from Latin. Naps for expectant moms are paramount especially because you're napping for two. Happy posting!

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    I must admit, these posts reminded of a story my friend told me.  Her family spoke Italian at home, so she and her sister learned French so they could have private conversations…..

    Personally, I think it is nice when parishes offer masses in another prominant language.  One parish I attend when I am on vacation in Wyoming has one mass in both English and Spanish (same mass).  It makes for a longer mass (about 1.5 hours), but it is kind of cool.  The hymns are also some English and some Spanish. 

    Maybe this is a way to be cross-lingual.

    TeresaW

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