Catholic Exchange

From Juju to the Eucharist

As Cal Thomas has thoughtfully illustrated yet again, people deny any and all connection between themselves and the object of their hostility. They rename sauerkraut “liberty cabbage” and French fries “freedom fries” and they try to pretend that Muslims and Christians “don’t worship the same God”. Protestants like Thomas are free (if you call it that) to try to overcome the Law of Non-Contradiction by main force. But American Catholics who are in this mood after 9/11 do not have the same luxury.

Not that they don’t try. But two forces tend to stop them.

First, there are atheists who tend to make treacherous allies in the Clash of Civilizations. Just when Catholics sidle up to our godless friends for a good laugh about, say, Muslims enthusiastic about drinking the urine of Mohammed, they find themselves betrayed by their new friends who laugh at the Catholic enthusiasm for drinking the blood of Christ.

Second, Catholics have a Magisterium that reels them in from rash theological judgments. And it is that, rather than aesthetics, that should form the basis for evaluating our relationship with non-Christian religions. Here, for instance, is what the Magisterium says on the matter of Islam:

CCC 841: “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

After that, only Catholics who get their theology from Sean Hannity rather than from the Holy Catholic Church can declare that Christians and Muslims “do not worship the same God.”

That’s not some new-fangled Spirit of Vatican II ecumaniac thing, by the by. Here, for instance, is Pope St. Gregory VII, writing to the Muslim Sultan of Bougie in North Africa in 1076:

For there is nothing which Almighty God, who wishes that all men should be saved and that no man should perish, more approves in our conduct than that a man should first love God and then his fellow men … Most certainly you and we ought to love each other in this way more than other races of men, because we believe and confess one God, albeit in different ways, whom each day we praise and reverence as the creator of all ages and the governor of this world.

In short, the Council did what the Church has always done, not just with Muslims, but with every religious tradition in the world: it affirmed what can be affirmed in common. Muslims believe there is one God, the God of Abraham. So do we. Denying this simply lands us in self-contradiction. Affirming that does not mean we affirm everything in Islam, just as affirming our common belief in one God with the Jews does not mean we deny the doctrine of the Trinity or the deity of Jesus.

muslimpray.jpgNow another point of commonality we have, not just with Muslims, but with most normal healthy people is the sense that there is more than meets the eye going on with created things. What underlies this impulse, from the perspective of the Christian revelation, is the perception that all creation is a mode of divine communication and can therefore be a means of grace. The psalmist sees this when he sings “The heavens declare the glory of God!” The primal instinct to see meaning in creation—and therefore Somebody to Mean It—runs deep in the human DNA.

The sacramental sense is glimpsed in the universal tendency of human beings to form the fixed notion that certain aspects of creation can somehow be “special”—charged with a particular juju or charm or luck or cooties or good medicine or the Fear of the Lord: something that sets this bit of creation apart from the other bits. This marble is the lucky marble. That tree is the sacred tree. This hill is where the temple must go. That valley is the accursed place. This article of clothing must be worn every seventh day. That day is sacred. This is the special ring. That sword is the sword you must swear upon. This bone is special because it is the bone of St. Fingel of Odoburg, etc.

It is an impulse as old and broad as the human race. And it is an impulse which is shared, in unguarded moments, even by postmodern secularists who wear wedding rings, keep their grandfather’s watch long after it has ceased to work, and hallow the room of their son who was killed in the auto accident. Indeed, despite his mockery of Catholics who allegedly revere magical body fluids in our devotion to the Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, there is ultimately no other explanation for the mysterious faith of the atheist that the magical three pound piece of meat behind his eyeballs is somehow more significant than the three pound piece of meat behind the theist’s eyeballs. Theists can explain the basis for the atheist’s devotion to the human brain as rooted in the truth of man as a rational animal made “in the image and likeness of a God who is the Logos”. Atheists are forced, by their own first premises, to say that they just arbitrarily prefer their three pound piece of meat to that of theists—usually on some vague ground that their rationalism “has better survival value”. What is left unspoken is how the assumptions of Judeo-Christian tradition unconsciously taken for granted by the atheist supply a reason why it is better to live than die.

As this illustrates, it does not necessarily follow that humans clearly know why they hallow some creaturely thing, nor what exactly is being hallowed, nor what is the fitting way to hallow it. For sin has clouded the intellect, weakened the will and disordered the appetites, resulting in the pagan impulse to worship the creature instead of the Creator (as ancient semites worshipped the image of Baal and modern atheists worship their own capacity to reason). Indeed, apart from the corrections given by the biblical revelation (and often even these don’t restrain the problem), the impulse to indulge superstitions of every conceivable kind—from offerings to Moloch to pinches of incense to one’s ancestors to drinking the urine of Mohammed—is endemic. The prophets battled it continually in the Old Covenant and the Church continues to battle it today. But the fact that you can fall in an infinite number of directions does not mean there is no such thing as standing. The fact that humans can make all sorts of wrong connections between creation and Creator does not mean there are no right connections.

Fallen man, feeling after God, remains now what he has always been, a beggar who has happened on a trail of bread crumbs and is faced with a choice: he can sit down, devour the few bread crumbs within reach and starve; or he can follow the crumbs of revelation back to the Loaf and eat.

For the fact is this: the Word became flesh, died and rose, and instituted the Eucharist as our means of participation in His divine Trinitarian life. In so doing, He transformed the relationship of Spirit and matter and confirmed the sacramental sense that He built into us with the gift of His Body and Blood. The only thing more foolish than the ways in which the sacramental sense can attach itself to unworthy objects like the urine of Mohammed is to deny altogether the reality of the sacramental sense and so reject the gift of Jesus Christ, fully present in the sacrament of His Body and Blood. “Eww!” is not an argument and people who pride themselves on their superior rationality should know that. Ultimately the question turns not on aesthetics but on the question which every person who has ever lived will have to answer, the question Jesus asked His disciples at Caesarea Philippi: “Who do you say that I am?”

Comments

39 responses to “From Juju to the Eucharist”

  1. yblegen Avatar
    yblegen

    Thanks. Once again, no one could have said it better.

  2. Peter M. Calabrese Avatar

    I don’t want to sidle up with those who falsely attack Islam, nor getmy theology from Sean Hannity.
    This part of the Catechism is the part of the Catechism that specifies generously how al of humanity is related to God and related to the Church which is a very important thing.

    But just as St. Paul would affirm the election of the Jews even after Christ’s Coming so too he affirmed that the Jews – “As regards the Gospel they are enemies of God, for your sake.” So too if indeed Islam affirms the one God they seek to adore Him but their theology of Him quickly disintegrates and they in fact are enemies of the Gospel in many ways. They are part of the plan of salvation in as much as they seek the good – but in fact they preach actively a Jesus who in reality is not Jesus and they actively oppose the spread of that truth.

    The Catechism in the following numbers – 846-856 outlines the need for missionary activity. While I know Mark would not deny that need – ion fact he says we do need affirm everything – the fact is there is much not only to not affirm but to actively evangelize against.

  3. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    The Catholic Church has always taught that muslims do not worship the same God as Catholics.

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434:

    “Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”

    Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, 1311-1312:

    “It is an insult to the holy name and a disgrace to the Christian faith that in certain parts of the world subject to Christian princes where Saracens (i.e., The followers of Islam, also called Muslims) live, sometimes apart, sometimes intermingled with Christians, the Saracen priests, commonly called Zabazala, in their temples or mosques, in which the Saracens meet to adore the infidel Mahomet, loudly invoke and extol his name each day at certain hours from a high place… This brings disrepute on our faith and gives great scandal to the faithful. These practices cannot be tolerated without displeasing the divine majesty. We therefore, with the sacred council’s approval, strictly forbid such practices henceforth in Christian lands. We enjoin on Catholic princes, one and all.. They are to forbid expressly the public invocation of the sacrilegious name of Mahomet… Those who presume to act otherwise are to be so chastised by the princes for their irreverence, that others may be deterred from such boldness.”

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, 1441, ex cathedra: “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and teaches that the matter pertaining to the law of the Old Testament, of the Mosaic Law, which are divided into ceremonies, sacred rites, sacrifices, and sacraments, because they were established to signify something in the future, although they were suited to divine worship at that time, after our Lord’s coming had been signified by them, ceased, and the sacraments of the New Testament began; and that whoever, even after the passion, placed hope in these matters of the law and submitted himself to them as necessary for salvation, as if faith in Christ could not save without them, sinned mortally. Yet it does not deny that after the passion of Christ up to the promulgation of the Gospel they could have been observed until they were believed to be in no way necessary for salvation; but after the promulgation of the Gospel it asserts that they cannot be observed without the loss of eternal salvation. All, therefore, who after that time (the promulgation of the Gospel) observe circumcision and the Sabbath and the other requirements of the law, it declares alien to the Christian faith and not in the least fit to participate in eternal salvation, unless someday they recover from these errors.”

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity… But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ…the Son of God is God and man…– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

    St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. II, Q. 12, A. 1, Obj. 2: “… if anyone were to… worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate.”

    St. Francis of Assisi (+ c. 1210): [To the Muslims] “We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us.”

    St. Francis Xavier, May, 1546: “The evil [of Islam] was introduced by some Mahometan caicizes (ministers of religion), who came from Mecca in Arabia, where the accursed body of Mahomet is honored with great superstition.”

    Pope Pius IX: “… let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is ‘one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5); it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.” (Denz. 1647)

  4. tomdundee Avatar
    tomdundee

    It is irrelevant what the Bible states or the Catholic Church teaches.

    It is irrelevant because our future is explained in another text, some may even call it a religious text or holy book.

    I am & infidel & a proud one at that. I reside in the House of War. Which means that a resident of the House of Peace (Moslem/Islam) can kill me as a religious obligation.

    “Abraham was neither Jew nor Christian; but he was in faith, a Moslem; and not those who add gods to God”. (Sura III, The Family of the Imam, verse 60.)

    “The last hour would not come till the Moslems fight against the Jews & the Moslems kill them, until the Jews hide themselves, and the stones & the trees would speak up saying, “There is a Jew hiding behind me, come & kill him”.”

  5. Dave Avatar
    Dave

    Though I’m at a bit of a loss as to what Mark’s one point is … I don’t think he is arguing that the church has not been long concerned and watchful of the muslim’s actions – and do certainly disagree that Mohammand is the central prophet to listen to. Rather that we strive to look behond him, to the one we all are pointing to .. God Himself. There we can, or should, begin to re-entertain a common base. Of course, we all know this is far simplier said than done. For I do believe that strains of Islam are at war with us. But we should not be at war with the other strains. There we should be loving evangels.

  6. tomdundee Avatar
    tomdundee

    addendum to above comment.

    “Last hour … There is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him”. Sayings of the Prophent Mohammad, Hadith Sahih Moslem, Book 40:6985.

    Since I had to come back to the DB, here’s another one. So many excellent quotes & so little space to write them.

    “Haditha 284: Any Jew or Christian who heard of Mohammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in Hell. Islam withdraws from all Jews & Christians the right to believe in their faith and practice them as such”.

    “The believers among the people of the Book (Christians & Jews) and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. Sura 98:6

    Believers! Take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends of one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers”. Sura 5:51.

  7. Lucky Mom of 7 Avatar
    Lucky Mom of 7

    Ah, couldn’t we build a solid case about acts of justified violence against outsiders from the Bible? Pulling things out of context to promote an agenda is something that is better suited dry, scientific journal articles than religious texts. I strongly suggest that anybody who would like to interpret how wicked the Q’uran is, learn Arabic first. Even studying English-translated exegesis is better than war-mongering speculation. Shame!

    I think Mr. Shea’s point is that any Catholic who uses seemingly-bizarre practices of Islam (like drinking Muhammed’s urine) to condemn it, doesn’t have a raised leg to stand on.

    Lucky

  8. kirbys Avatar
    kirbys

    doctrine doesnt change:

    None of the above quotations implies that the Muslims aren’t worshipping the one True God–Mohammed isn’t Allah.

    Great article, Mark!

  9. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    KIRBY,
    WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??
    STOP BEING DISHONEST…

  10. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Basel, Session 19, Sept. 7, 1434:

    “Moreover, we trust that with God’s help another benefit will accrue to the Christian commonwealth; because from this union, once it is established, there is hope that very many from the abominable sect of Mahomet will be converted to the Catholic faith.”

    This passage by Pope Eugene IV says that with God’s help that the muslims will be converted. Obviously, Pope Eugene didn’t think we worshipped the same God. and He obviously knew God didn’t feel that way either.
    He even calls muslims an “abominable sect”.

    But yet Kirby says nowhere in the above passages does it insinuate that we don’t worship the Same God.
    If we did why would these popes and saints even make these comments.
    At least be Honest

  11. Lucky Mom of 7 Avatar
    Lucky Mom of 7

    doctrine,

    Dude, I don’t think Pope Eugene IV was speaking ex cathedra. It matters.

    Lucky

  12. Griff Avatar
    Griff

    “No one can come to the Father except through me.”

  13. mrteachersir Avatar
    mrteachersir

    doctrinedoesntchange:

    Kirby is correct. While the popes clearly insinuate that the teachings of Muhammad are wrong in that they deny the Blessed Trinity, they do not clearly state that the God of Muhammad is not the same God as the Blessed Trinity. More correctly, they attack certain elements of Islam that directly contradict the teachings of Christ and His Church.

    Pope Eugene is an excellent example. What do we call any person who enters into the Catholic faith? A convert. Even if, like myself, that person was a non-Catholic Christian. What you are saying, based on your analysis of Pope Eugene, is that all Protestants, Jews, and Orthodox don’t worship the same God we do.

    Consider your use of Clement V’s diatribe against the Muslim practice of elevating Muhammad’s name. Muhammad, being a false prophet, is not worthy of the honor given him by Muslims. As Kirby said, Muhammad is not Allah, and Pope Clement doesn’t claim that he is. Therefore, Clement is not claiming that Muslim’s don’t worship the One True God, but rather, they are also honoring a false prophet. Relate this aspect to some of the claims Protestants make toward the Church: we “worship” Mary and the Saints. We don’t. Mary deserves “hyperdoulia” (much honor), while the saints deserve “doulia” (honor). Only God get worshipped. You don’t hear Protestants claim that we don’t worship the One True God because we honor Mary and the Saints. No, they claim that we erroneously worship dead people over the One True God.

    Eugene IV (and others) are correct: we need to convert Muslims to the Catholic faith. Not because they don’t believe in or worship the One True God, but because their understanding of Him is limited, tainted and wrong. To claim that the Church has always claimed that Muslims don’t believe in God also defies the rest of history. The Jesuits were able to make way in China by teaching them that the Buddha they worshipped was simply a false representation of God, and that the boddhisatvas (little buddhas) were actually the saints. By changing the concepts the Chinese (and Japanese) had of God and the saints, they were able to bring about the conversions of thousands. St. Paul himself praised the Athenians for worshiping the One True God (in the form of the Unknown god), and then tried to correct their understanding of Him. The French missionaries did the same thing in North America.

    Just because a prelate, a pope, a saint, or a council says something disparaging against Islam doesn’t mean that the Church is teaching they don’t worship the same God. Rather, they are saying disparaging things about Islam.

  14. kirbys Avatar
    kirbys

    I believe that the Jews worship God the Father. I believe that other Christians worship the Triune God. I follow the Cathechism of the Catholic Church, which is backed up by the Magesterium and the Holy Father. If they (the M and Holy Father)have studied, prayed, and concluded in consulting with the Holy Spirit, that the Muslims worship God the Father INASMUCH AS THEY (the Muslims) UNDERSTAND GOD, then I will be with the Magesterium and the Holy Father.

    One can worship God and worship Him incorrectly, as clearly the Muslims do. We are definitely called to evangelize, as our state in life allows us to. Christ called us to evangelize, obviously, and we are held accountable if we do not.

    I don’t disagree with ANYTHING that these holy Saints and Popes have written! But—Show me the specific statement in those quotations which states that we do not worship the same God THE FATHER.

    Here is the quotation from Pope Saint Gregory from the article again:

    “That’s not some new-fangled Spirit of Vatican II ecumaniac thing, by the by. Here, for instance, is Pope St. Gregory VII, writing to the Muslim Sultan of Bougie in North Africa in 1076:

    ‘For there is nothing which Almighty God, who wishes that all men should be saved and that no man should perish, more approves in our conduct than that a man should first love God and then his fellow men … Most certainly you and we ought to love each other in this way more than other races of men, because we believe and confess one God, albeit in different ways, whom each day we praise and reverence as the creator of all ages and the governor of this world.’ ”

    I think that to evangelize, it’s good to know whether there is a common ground with which you can begin (for example, there is much less common ground with a Hindu). It would be more helpful to start with the truth, and to re-orient the idea of God as arbitrary Master of materialistically-obsessed slaves to God as Loving Father who sacrificed His only Son for us.

    Blessed night!
    Kirbys

  15. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    LUCKY MOM OF SEVEN

    HERE IS POPE EUGENE EX CATHEDRA:

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity… But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ…the Son of God is God and man…– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”

  16. Johnnyboy Avatar
    Johnnyboy

    Doctrine:

    Which point are you arguing: that Muslims do not worship the same God as Catholics or salvation outside the Church? These are two distinct points.
    Please clarify.

    If we’re all discussing the former, your above quote from Pope Eugene could be interpreted to mean that neither Muslims, Jews, nor even Protestants worship the same God as Catholics.

    Pope Eugene hopes that Muslims will be converted. I’m sure he hoped that Jews would be converted; and in fact that ALL who are outside it be converted to the Church. But you cannot conclude that by saying this he believes they worship a different God.

    I’m sorry, but it is not an obvious conclusion as you say it is.
    I don’t know how you can come to that conclusion based on Pope Eugene’s statement.

    Was Gregory VII thereby a heretic for his statement to the sultan?

  17. Lucky Mom of 7 Avatar
    Lucky Mom of 7

    Well, Dude, guess I’m destined for hell myself. See, I have a really hard time with the mysteries of our faith. I can’t say that I definitely “faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ…the Son of God is God and man…” I darn sure don’t “preserve it whole and inviolate.”

    I just struggle along day to day, leaning on God’s grace and His mercy. I do have the beautiful gift of believing in the True Presence in the Eucharist, though. What a shame that I’m a lost cause.

    Pope JP II wrote about an “implicit” belief in Jesus. He was speaking of those who live faithfully according to Christ’s commands, even if they don’t know him. Scripture tells us that God writes these truths on our hearts. We have all known people who are profoundly holy who have never gone to any Church. One of my favorite parables (sorry, don’t have the book and chapter–think it’s in Mark) is the one about the two sons whose father told them to go work in the vineyard. Jesus tells us that the first son said he would go and then never did. The second son refused to go, but later changed his mind and went and worked. The Father was pleased with the son who was obedient–not the son who said the right words in the father’s presence. God cares how we live, not what we profess with our tongues.

    If the criteria for getting into heaven is just professing a belief in Jesus… I’d rather be stuck with the mean girls in junior high for all eternity. They’d be better company that the other lot.

    Lucky

  18. junior Avatar
    junior

    People can worship God without understanding Him, and God still accept their worship.

  19. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    of course protestants don’t worship the same God as Catholics.
    Protestants worship a God who tells them that contraception is okay.
    That is not the same God that I worship. The same God I worship detests contraception. Protestants also think divorce is okay. another thing God detests.

  20. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    I forgot to mention, that the great Saint John Vianney also knew that protestants could not make it to heaven.

    St. John Vianney and the Protestant

    “The Curé of Ars and the Protestant – The Curé of Ars [St. John Vianney] once gave a medal to a Protestant who visited him, who exclaimed: ‘Dear sir, you have given a medal to one who is a heretic, at least I am a heretic from your point of view. But although we are not of the same religion, I hope we shall both one day be in Heaven.’ The holy priest took the gentleman’s hand in his own, and giving him a look which seemed to reach his very soul, answered him, ‘Alas! My friend, we cannot be together in Heaven, unless we have begun to live so in this world. Death makes no change in that. As the tree falls so shall it lie. Jesus Christ has said, ‘He that does not hear the Church, let him be to thee as a heathen and a publican.’ And He said again, ‘There shall be one fold and one shepherd,’ and He made St. Peter the chief shepherd of His flock.’ Then, in a voice full of sweetness, he added, ‘My dear friend, there are not two ways of serving Jesus Christ; there is only one good way, and that is to serve Him as He Himself wishes to be served.’ Saying this, the priest left him. But these words sank deeply into the… man’s heart, and led him to renounce the errors in which he had been brought up, and he became a fervent Catholic.” (Life of the Curé of Ars; quoted in The Catechist, G.E. Howe, Tan Books, p. 71.)

    There is only one way to serve God and worship Him, and that is in the Catholic Church..

  21. mkochan Avatar
    mkochan

    So, ddc, you think that there is a God somewhere who says that contraception is ok?

  22. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    No, Mary
    you missed the point.
    The true God who is the Only God can only be worshipped in the Catholic Church.
    Protestants fool themselves into believing that they worship God correctly. They don’t. they try to say that they worship the same God we do, but they don’t.
    because they think God would approve of their contraception.
    There is only one God. And like St.John Vianney said, protestants are heretics and cannot get to heaven unless they come into the true Church, the Catholic Church.

  23. Fourteen Avatar
    Fourteen

    Hey Doctrine: I’m pretty sure you believe that the Catholic Catechism holds an authority on doctrine? If you answer yes, re-read what the ccc841 states. It’s pretty cut and dry as to the fact that the “Plan Of Salvation” includes different groups of people other than Catholic Christians…I would like to think that the grace and mercy of our Lord falls on many people; that the prayers of Mary and all the saints would be spoken and heard on behalf of all of humanity; and that those who error and don’t have the fullness, that we as Catholics have, would have a chance at purification, just as we do. I think if Christ can love the very men who are spitting on him and putting nails through his body, I can love someone of a different faith or denomination and pray for them forgiveness. I pray that we don’t forget our own forgiveness.

    I would have to say that we cannot get too far away from what Mr. Shea is trying to say with this article. He’s saying the same thing that many saints and popes before him have said…Simply love first. I read it and it caused me to examine my own heart. We tend to get caught up in all of the violence a certain group of extremists live and display to us…and the error we find in their faith. We tend to link all followers of Islam to these extremists, which is no more right than linking all Christians to the acts of people like Eric Rudolph. While I strongly disapprove of the act of abortion, I still need to love those who may approve it because I’ve been told to do so by Christ himself, and hundreds of saints and popes after him. The more we focus on hating a group, race, or faith the less we focus on loving all people no matter the similarities or differences between us. I think I’ll let God decide who and who does not enter into the Kingdom and I’ll just keep praying for the souls in purgatory and those on earth…including my own.

    Another question for you Doctrine, do you believe that purgatory is only for Catholic Christians?

    If I may also say to you…don’t let a protestant’s misinterpretation of doctrine and God’s word give you the thought that they serve a different God. Most protestant faiths believe in the same Trinity that you and I believe in…Father God, Jesus Christ His Son, & The Holy Spirit. A protestant doctrine is rooted in protest, a protest against humans that they deem to be mistaken in authority…Catholic authority or the See of Rome, not a direct protest of God so-to-speak (even though the Holy See roots it’s authority in God, but that’s a whole other discussion). The Orthidox faith doesn’t regard Rome to have authority over the church, but they still believe on the same God and saviour that we do, they still have many of the same saints, they believe in Transubstantiation, they honor the Blessed Mother, etc and so on. They are not Roman Catholic and according to your beliefs they will perrish. I know that the God WE serve has more grace and mercy for ALL sinners than what you say my friend…

    mrteachersir: I commend you on your response…well said, bravo.

    I know one thing, all Catholics can be united in praying:

    Glory be to the Father, to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, a world without end.

    Oh my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of hell. Lead ALL souls to heaven, especially those who are in most need of your mercy.

    Hail Mary, full of Grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art you amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

  24. mkochan Avatar
    mkochan

    ddc, there IS only one God, therefore Protestant cannot be worshipping some other God. They may be mistaken about His requirements, but that doesn’t mean they don’t worship Him.

    Just to follow you to your logical conclusion: you and I worship different Gods. You worship a God who rejects sincere worshippers who through no fault of their own are born into a system of religion that does not explicilty acknowledge the authority of the Church — even though they use the Church’s Bible and they embrace many of the Church’s doctrines and bend the knee to the Son, calling him “Lord.” I worship a God who loves these people, gives them grace even unto salvation, gives them rebirth in Baptism, gently leads many of them home to His Church, but leads many more into heaven in response to the prayer of the Church “for all whom the Son has gained.”

  25. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    Pope Gregory XVI, Summo Iugiter Studio (# 2), May 27, 1832:

    “Finally some of these misguided people attempt to persuade themselves and others that men are not saved only in the Catholic religion, but that even heretics may attain eternal life.”[

  26. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BEFORE VATICAN II, HAS ALWAYS TAUGHT THAT PROTESTANTS ARE HERETICS.

    BUT DISHONEST PEOPLE WILL WRITE BACK AND SAY “I DON’T THINK THAT QUOTE FROM POPE GREGORY XVI MEANS THAT YOU HAVE TO BE CATHOLIC TO GET TO HEAVEN”

    ACCEPT THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH.
    THERE IS NOOOO SALVATION OUTSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH..

  27. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    Pope Pius IX, Qui Pluribus (# 15), Nov. 9, 1846:
    “Also perverse is that shocking theory that it makes no difference to which religion one belongs, a theory greatly at variance even with reason. By means of this theory, those crafty men remove all distinction between virtue and vice, truth and error, honorable and vile action. They pretend that men can gain eternal salvation by the practice of any religion, as if there could ever be any sharing between justice and iniquity, any collaboration between light and darkness, or any agreement between Christ and Belial.”[vii]

  28. doctrinedoesntchange Avatar
    doctrinedoesntchange

    St. Thomas Aquinas, De Veritate, 14, A. 11, ad 1: objection- “It is possible that someone may be brought up in the forest, or among wolves; such a man cannot explicitly know anything about the faith. Reply- It is the characteristic of Divine Providence to provide every man with what is necessary for salvation… provided on his part there is no hindrance. In the case of a man who seeks good and shuns evil, by the leading of natural reason, God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him…”[xvii]

  29. mrteachersir Avatar
    mrteachersir

    DDC:

    “By means of this theory, those crafty men remove all distinction between virtue and vice, truth and error, honorable and vile action. They pretend that men can gain eternal salvation by the practice of any religion… .” This seems to be the pertinent part of Pius IX’s piece. There are some key aspects that need to be illuminated. Firstly, this is a translation of the Latin. Latin is a deliberate language, often there are different words to use for a similar concept, but each word has a slightly different meaning. Thus, we can assume that Pius was very careful in his word choice. That being said, Pius uses the term “men”. This seems to be a blanket statement referring to humanity. This usage then leads me to interpret Pius’ statement to be in reference to extreme relativism: all religion is equal. This is not what our argument is; our argument is that God’s Grace is sufficient to save men who are outside of the Church. So this part of Pius’ statement is irrelevent.

    Second, Pius states that proponents of this theory have removed any morality behind actions: thus homosexual acitivity can be seen as morally neutral, as can abuse of women, torture, forcing widows to be burned alive, female circumcision, human sacrifice, pornography, ritual rape, ritual prostitution, slavery, racism, etc. In many instances, these actions are actually condoned and encouraged by different religions. By removing any moral quality to these actions, each religion is then on an equal plane. So the Hindu that forces a widow to leap onto her husbands funeral pyre is just as harmless as the jihadi who deems it virtuous to kill as many people (Muslim or not) as he can in the name of Allah, who is just as harmless as the African tribe that forces young women to undergo genital mutilation to prevent pre-marital intercourse, which is just as harmless as the ante-bellum American preacher who preached that blacks were the sons of Canaan and therefore destined to be slaves. Pius is simply pointing out the obvious, that this line of thinking is not true. What he is not saying is that non-Catholics aren’t going to heaven.

    Aquinas, on the other hand, explicitly contradicts your point. Consider the objection: “It is possible that someone may be brought up in the forest, or among wolves; such a man cannot explicitly know anything about the faith.” According to you, such men would go to hell, because they are not Catholic (at least, that is what I am gathering from your posts). What does St. Thomas say? “By the leading of natural reason, God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him.” Nowhere does St. Thomas say that he must be Catholic, but rather that God would supply what this person needed for salvation. Consider Scripture. God saved Rahab, although a prostitute, because she helped the Israelites. Was she herself an Israelite? No, and the Bible doesn’t give us any indication that she became a convert. Yet God’s grace is sufficient enough to save her. This is what the Church teaches: that God has the power and grace to save those who are outside the Church, yet accepting of His Grace.

  30. Fourteen Avatar
    Fourteen

    Doctrine you say, “…BEFORE VATICAN II…PROTESTANTS ARE HERETICS.”
    How the Church defines heresy was, is, and will be. Someone with a tag name like “Doctrinedoesntchange” should agree. Doctrine does however become more defined over time as the Church sees the need to further explain due to heresies of that day. Vatican II does just this with the Catholic Catechism…the CC isn’t a book compiled of new ideas, but rather a book defining what has been taught. Remember that St. Thomas Aquinas dealt with different types of heresies than that of a protestant Christian faith. His Summa Theologica was written in the 1200’s, over 300 years before the protestant revolt or rebellion, but other early church fathers spoke on this subject as well…

    First, there are two different types of Heresy: Material Heretics and Formal Heretics
    Formal Heretics are with full knowledge of the Church and her true teachings; deliberately and maliciously deny the Faith or the authority of the Church…people like Luther, Calvin, Knox, Wycliff, etc…

    Material Heretics are those who, having been born into a false “christian” religion, hold false ideas about God through ignorance of the truth due to individual circumstances. People that would fall into this category are Lutherans, Baptists, Evangelicals, and many other protestant faiths.

    Easy comparrison:
    Someone who is born and baptized Catholic, above the age of 18 who renounces the faith and what the faith teaches – not good and needs to “come back” to the church before death.

    Someone who is born into a baptist home and is taught this faith from birth and fully believes that their faith is in good standing with God and who might say that the Catholic Church is wrong – Grace and Mercy given by God and can take part in Salvation.

    Most protestants are material heretics. Protestants hold true to many incorrect beliefs. However, most protestants are not formal heretics. Most protestants reject the Catholic teaching and the authority of the Church because they truely believe it to be wrong in God’s eyes…this is all based on ignorance and they need love and prayer. Most reject the Church because of what they do NOT know about actual Catholic Teaching, false prejudice, an anti-Catholic upbringing, etc. not because they truely understand and denounce the Church.

    QuotesConcerning material heresy:
    St. Augustine speaking on Excommunication or damnation to: “Those are by no means to be accounted heretics who do not defend their false and perverse opinions with pertinacious zeal (animositas), especially when their error is not the fruit of audacious presumption but has been communicated to them by seduced and lapsed parents, and when they are seeking the truth with cautious solicitude and ready to be corrected” (P.L., XXXIII, ep. xliii, 160).

    Pius IX, in a letter to the bishops of Italy August 10th 1863, restates this Catholic doctrine: “It is known to Us and to You that they who are in invincible ignorance concerning our religion but observe the natural law . . . and are ready to obey God and lead an honest and righteous life, can, with the help of Divine light and grace, attain to eternal life . . . for God . . . will not allow any one to be eternally punished who is not wilfully guilty”
    (Both quotes are before Vatican II)

    …and you then say “ACCEPT THE TEACHINGS OF THE CHURCH.”

    Let’s look at what the Church teaches us today…since we are Roman Catholics and hold true to the See Of Rome and what is taught. Remember Vatican II is not renounced by the Church of today, but accepted.

    Vatican – Dominus Iesus
    16:55-56
    “…that is, in those Churches and ecclesial communities which are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church. But with respect to these, it needs to be stated that “they derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church”.
    17:58-59
    “…The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church…”
    17:60-61
    “On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church.”
    17:65
    “Therefore, these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from defects, have by no means been deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church.”

    CCC 819:
    “…many elements of sanctification and of truth” are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: “the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements.” Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him, and are in themselves calls to “Catholic unity.”

    CCC 1271:
    Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.”

    LUMEN GENTIUM-Chapter 2:16
    “But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohamedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things, and as Saviour wills that all men be saved. Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel…”

    I think you can get a pretty good understanding, from the above, of how the Church views the salvation of protestants….

    DDC, If you truely believe that anyone who is not Catholic will not have salvation…I strongly urge you to study more and talk with a Priest or someone at your local Bishop’s office…you can also write one of the great writers of our day and ask them what they have found to be true Church teaching on this subject. Someone like Dr. Scott Hahn or Karl Keating or someone like that.

    Peace…

  31. Geistesswiesenschaften Avatar
    Geistesswiesenschaften

    You know, I realize that a lot of people will reject their sense of reason when I write this, they will forsake reason in favor of passion, and that will be a shame, but…

    The Catechism has been wrong before about particulars, albeit the spirit of the Catechism is NEVER WRONG, particulars can be. It is also not unlikely that it will some day be wrong again. Notwithstanding, there can be no doubt that the authors who wrote that “Catholics and Muslims worship the same god” are wrong now.

    Jesus IS GOD. Our God IS A TRINITY. Their God is NOT Father, Not Son, not Spirit.

    What they did (and I’ll leave you to do the research all on your own) was they adapted Pagan names with Christian practices and Jewish theology. Mohammed appropriated/hijacked whatever parts of the history of the identity of god that he wanted to. It is stupid to anything less or contradictory.

    Mohammed is a fraud, Allah is a moon god of the pagan religions, and they deny Jesus Christ as God. Precisely in all of these, you can SAFELY and FAIRLY say that they do NOT worship the unique creator GOD, regardless of what they claim anyway.

    If you are not worshiping Jesus Christ, you are not worshiping the Trinity and you are denying the God which we worship. We DO NOT worship the same God. Our Catechism wrote that sloppy bullschnazz out of cowardess, but more importantly, they wrote it because we should not be TRYING to put the lives of the faithful in jeopardy. It is much easier to make converts (they think) if they can say it is the same God. But – It is a cold blooded lie.

  32. mkochan Avatar
    mkochan

    Geistesswiesenschaften, you are engaging in the fallacy called “poisoning the well.” However many bold assertions, al la Dave Hunt, you might pile up, they do not morph into evidence. Anyone who does not accept them though, is ipso facto, labeled as unreasonable. I suggest you read the entire series by Stan Williams on how to make an argument and then try again.

  33. Fourteen Avatar
    Fourteen

    Geistesswiesenschaften, I agree with some of the points that you make, BUT either we as Roman Catholics submit to the See of Rome or we don’t. The Church has errored in many ways throughout history, one aspect is the Church helping to finance the slave trade and later apologizing for this error. As of right now, the CC is what it is and I trust in our Church to constantly look to the Holy Spirit for guidance and if error is there, I have faith that it will come to light. As for your opinion as to why content was written is merely that…opinion. Your opinion also scoffs at the authority of the Church and what she teaches on this subject. It is the same type of independant thinking that causes Catholics to accept a pro-life mentality or to think that women should be ordained. We all have opinions, but either we submit to an authority or we do not…we as Catholics can not pick and choose what we deem to be doctrine or divine truth or of moral stature based on our opinion.

    Concerning the comparrison of the God of Christianity and the God of Islam.
    We as Catholics do have one God, but in three persons…seperate, yet one. Hence the mystery of the Trinity. The only comparrison that has been made is: their Allah is the God of Abraham and our God the Father IS INDEED the God of Abraham…before there was Christ and before Christ breathed His Spirit into His followers. This is the same God that created the earth. I’m not trying to insult here and I’m sure you are more than educated as to the Holy Trinity, but I am getting to a point.

    Muslim’s do worship Allah, but it’s not the Pagan Allah of pre-Islamic Arabia that you are refering. In pre-Islamic Arabia amongst pagan Arabs, Allah was not the sole divinity, having associates and companions, sons and daughters, a concept strongly opposed by Islam. In Islam, God is the supreme and all-comprehensive divine name. All other divine names are believed to refer back to The One, God. Allah is unique, the only Deity, creator of the universe and omnipotent. Even Arab Christians today, having no other word for ‘God’ than Allah, use terms such as Allāh al-Āb (الله الآب) “God the Father”. (From Wikipedia, because they can word things better than I). The Quran speaks that Allah is the God of Abraham on many occasions, Muslims believe and teach this and historians have confirmed it as well.

    Quran 2:136
    Say, “We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and Jesus, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters.”

    Muslims are in error on many, many things but they do claim and teach that they serve the God of Abraham and that is the comparrison and that is not a cold-blooded lie. I guess I just don’t understand how you can say that what they claim isn’t true…it’s their religion and it’s what their religion teaches and has taught. While I will agree that they do not serve our Holy Trinity and they do deny that Jesus Christ is Lord. I guess on the aspect of their God, I look at it similar to the Jewish faith…their God is also our Father God….even though the Jews do not accept Christ as saviour.

  34. Fourteen Avatar
    Fourteen

    I meant to say pro-choice mentality not pro-life…sorry.

  35. kirbys Avatar
    kirbys

    DDC, Geisteswissenschaften, are the Catholics who are following the current Holy Father, the Magesterium, and the Catechism they have set forth truly Catholic? Perhaps I am reading between the lines too closely, but it seems to be the implication that perhaps we are not.

    Don’t misunderstand me, clearly we are to evangelize and not assume that our Protestant, Jewish, and, yes even Moslem brethren should not be catechised and evengelised. In fact, God places souls in our path and we are surely held accountable for them to varying degrees.

    However, the God of Mercy (who is also Perfect Justice, yes, I clearly understand that) is not going to send a Muslim in the mountains of —–istan who has lived an upstanding life according to natural law and reason and who has worshipped God to the best of his understanding to hell ONLY because he has never heard any truthful statement about Christ, or the Blessed Trinity. SHould we try to the best of our ability to evangelize him? Yes. Will I ever be a missionary in the hills of —-istan? Probably not. SHould I be praying and sacrificing for his conversion? Yep!

    I have STILL not seen any quotation which states that the Muslims do not worship God the Father, ALBEIT extremely imperfectly. I have read PLENTY about the need to conversion, with which I heartily agree, but THAT is NOT the point of this article.

  36. tomdundee Avatar
    tomdundee

    Nothing taken from the Koran can be taken out of context as there is no context. The Koran was written in 2 – 4 stages or periods, depending on who is talking. The most peaceful Suras were written when Islam was just beginning in Mecca, then there was the time in Medina, & the final stage was after the conquest of Mecca, and after the conquest of the Arabian Peninsula. The latter being the most violent.

    The pages of what was to become the Koran were torn apart by Sura & then re-written as a book. That is why there is no context nor is there any continuity.

    It is really strange that people say that the Koran is taken out of context when I quote Suras like I did above. Yet the same people will then proceed to cite passages showing that Islam is peaceful and tolerant, implying that is in context?

    Islam cannot worship the same God as we (all Christians) do, our God is part of a Trinity and Allah is solo. Islam also claims that Jesus did not die on the cross. Islam denies the Virgin Birth.

    I have no problem with letting God decide in due time who is worshipping correctly, as long as they aren’t trying to kill me ahead of my time.

    If anyone can explain to me how it is the same God, please do. Errors have been made before and I believe that they are being made in this situation. This is not an error of faith or belief. It is an error in believing in cult’s god.

  37. tomdundee Avatar
    tomdundee

    Lucky,

    Yes, the Bible does have some violent passages, especially the Old Testament. However, no one is carrying a copy of the Bible (Old Testament) killing people and attempting to set up a pure Old Testament state.

  38. kirbys Avatar
    kirbys

    God the Father was “solo” to the Jews, as well, though.

    I don’t think anyone is saying that Islam is a religion of peace, by any means. I don’t think anyone is arguing that we should not attempt to convert Muslims. Of course they are terribly wrong. That was not the scope of the article.

    I will email Catholic Answers, and perhaps Mary Kochan will post their response at CE. 🙂

    Blessed weekend, and let’s pray for conversion. No one can accuse fervent Muslims of the devotional apathy that exists in the post-Christian west! Pray that there is a “Pauline conversion” moment! Our Lady of Guadalupe, pray for us.

  39. Fourteen Avatar
    Fourteen

    Kirbys hit the nail on the head…this discussion of comparison between Islam and Christianity is only directed at Allah and our Father God. Before God gave us a piece of Himself as human flesh to fulfill the old and before our Christ gave us the Holy Spirit on earth, there was no Trinity as we know it. The God of the Jews was/is the God of Abraham and the Islamic Allah is refered to by muslims as the God of Abraham. Since we as Catholics worship the same Father God as the Jews even though they do not accept Christ Jesus as His son, we as Catholics also worship the same Father God as islam worships because He is one and the same…the God of Abraham. I don’t believe that anyone is trying to compare Allah to our Holy Trinity…because like the Jews, muslims do not accept Christ as Lord either.

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