Catholic Exchange

Does the Church Still Value Catholic Schools?

Is it still open season on Catholic schools?  Want to hear another mean Nun story?  How about another touchy feely religion class story?  Want a tidbit of heretical teaching to share? 

If you want to read about these, I'm afraid this article might disappoint you. I've heard plenty of these stories and shared many with friends and acquaintances.  But there came a point when these stories lost some of their comic value.  I admit, I don't laugh as heartily as I used to.

I made three big mistakes, and thus I've had a change in attitude toward Catholic schools. My goal is to change your attitude as well. 

My first mistake was entrusting my children to a Catholic school.  My second mistake was joining the faculty of a Catholic high school.  But my greatest mistake, was reading the Church documents on Catholic schools.

The last mistake is what this article is about.

Catholic Schools in the Wake of Vatican II

There is little debate that Catholic schools have undergone a large transformation since the sixties.  I always figured that the changes were a result of a change in focus by the Church.  However, I am now convinced that Catholic schools have become another casualty of "the spirit of Vatican II".

What should be the relationship between Catholics and Catholic schools?  Let's begin the discussion from the basics – from the Church documents themselves, in order to more clearly perceive the mind of the Church.  Thus we might have a better perspective on what our role should be in the reconstruction (or deconstruction) of Catholic Schools.

The following is a quick survey of the Churches attitude on the value of Catholic schools since the 1960's.  The documents cited are the major documents from the Church on Catholic education — one from each decade.  They are exceptional and should be required reading of anybody associated with Catholic education.  The first is an actual Vatican II document, the other three were written by the Congregation for Catholic Education.  These came out in 1977, 1988, and the third in 1998.

Gravissimum Educationis  –Vatican II on Catholic Schools

 One of the major documents of the Second Vatican Council was the "Declaration on Christian Education".  To read this document and then witness the subsequent treatment of Catholic schools since Vatican II is alarming.  The Council considered Catholic schools of the "utmost importance".  Consider the following quotes:

Since, therefore, the Catholic school can be such an aid to the fulfillment of the mission of the People of God and to the fostering of the dialogue between the Church and mankind, to the benefit of both, it retains even in our present circumstances the utmost importance.

The council calls Catholic parents to the "duty" of utilizing Catholic schools:       

The Council also reminds Catholic parents of the duty of entrusting their children to Catholic schools wherever and whenever it is possible and of supporting these schools to the best of their ability and of cooperating with them for the education of their children.[28]

This next section raises doubts about the elitist quality of many current Catholic schools, which raises obvious questions about the validity of tuition.       

This Sacred Council of the Church earnestly entreats pastors and all the faithful to spare no sacrifice in helping Catholic schools fulfill their function in a continually more perfect way, and especially in caring for the needs of those who are poor in the goods of this world or who are deprived of the assistance and affection of a family or who are strangers to the gift of Faith.

The Catholic School

The Catholic School was the definitive Church document on Catholic schools in the 1970's.  This document explains what it is that separates Catholic schools from public schools:

She (the Catholic Church) establishes her own schools because she considers them as a privileged means of promoting the formation of the whole man, since the school is a centre in which a specific concept of the world, of man, and of history is developed and conveyed

There is a strong hint that the "spirit of Vatican II" may have had negative effect on our schools in this document.  It provides strong words for those that want to utilize money for other ("more important") ministries.  It discusses what it calls the "school problem":

 The Second Vatican Council has encouraged a more open-minded approach which has sometimes been misrepresented in theory and practice. There are difficulties in the provision of adequate staff and finance. In such a situation should the Church perhaps give up her apostolic mission in Catholic schools, as some people would like her to do, and direct her energy to a more direct work of evangelization in sectors considered to be of higher priority or more suited to her spiritual mission, or should she make State schools the sole object of her pastoral activity? Such a solution would not only be contrary to the directives of the Vatican Council, but would also be opposed to the Church's mission and to what is expected of her by Christian people. What follows emphasizes this fact. 

This document also explains how Catholic schools are of service to society itself, not just the families that utilize them or the parishes the provide them.  We have to think beyond our own families and parishes:

62. The Catholic school community, therefore, is an irreplaceable source of service, not only to the pupils and its other members, but also to society. Today especially one sees a world which clamors for solidarity and yet experiences the rise of new forms of individualism. Society can take note from the Catholic school that it is possible to create true communities out of a common effort for the common good. In the pluralistic society of today the Catholic school, moreover, by maintaining an institutional Christian presence in the academic world; proclaims by its very existence the enriching power of the faith as the answer to the enormous problems which afflict mankind. Above all, it is called to render a humble loving service to the Church by ensuring that she is present in the scholastic field for the benefit of the human family

The Religious Dimension in a Catholic School

This exceptional document is the major Catholic School document of the 1980's.  The emphasis is in portraying Catholics Schools as a still valid ministry of the Church.  The school is called a "pastoral instrument" that performs a "pastoral service":

As it reflects on the mission entrusted to it by the Lord, the Church gradually develops its pastoral instruments so that they may become ever more effective in proclaiming the Gospel and promoting total human formation. The Catholic school is one of these pastoral instruments; its specific pastoral service consists in mediating between faith and culture: being faithful to the newness of the Gospel while at the same time respecting the autonomy and the methods proper to human knowledge.

The Catholic Schools are not a "marginal or secondary element in the pastoral mission".  The complete Catholic school is emphasized as opposed to youth programs that are designed to supplement public schools.  It is of primary importance:

33 At least since the time of the Council, therefore, the Catholic school has had a clear identity, not only as a presence of the Church in society, but also as a genuine and proper instrument of the Church. It is a place of evangelization, of authentic apostolate and of pastoral action — not through complementary or parallel or extra­curricular activity, but of its very nature: its work of educating the Christian person. The words of the present Holy Father make this abundantly clear: "the Catholic school is not a marginal or secondary element in the pastoral mission of the bishop. Its function is not merely to be an instrument with which to combat the education given in a State school" (20)

This document reiterates the need of the Catholic school in our society.  Catholic schools are a natural extension of the mission of the Church:

34 The Catholic school finds its true justification in the mission of the Church; it is based on an educational philosophy in which faith, culture and life are brought into harmony. Through it, the local Church evangelizes, educates, and contributes to the formation of a healthy and morally sound life-style among its members. The Holy Father affirms that "the need for the Catholic school becomes evidently clear when we consider what it contributes to the development of the mission of the People of God, to the dialogue between Church and the human community, to the safeguarding of freedom of conscience…." Above all, according to the Holy Father, the Catholic school helps in achieving a double objective: "of its nature it guides men and women to human and Christian perfection, and at the same time helps them to become mature in their faith. For those who believe in Christ, these are two facets of a single reality" (21)

Catholic Schools on the Threshold of the New Millennium

This Church document reminds us that Vatican II was the work of the Holy Spirit, and this Council clearly valued Catholic schools:

21. Thus it follows that the work of the school is irreplaceable and the investment of human and material resources in the school becomes a prophetic choice. On the threshold of the third millennium we perceive the full strength of the mandate which the Church handed down to the Catholic school in that "Pentecost" which was the Second Vatican Council: "Since the Catholic school can be of such service in developing the mission of the People of God and in promoting dialogue between the Church and the community at large to the advantage of both, it is still of vital importance even in our times".

What is Possible?

As we have surveyed the Church's attitude on the value of Catholic Schools, it is my hope that your attitude may have changed a bit.  Unfortunately, when most of us consider Catholic schools, we think only about what is — instead of what could be. 

The above mentioned Church documents also give a vision for Catholic schools that is remarkably beautiful — but beyond the scope of this article.  It is difficult to live up to this vision.  However, the vision is worth grasping and holding on to.  It is this vision of what Catholic schools could be that we need to embrace when we consider our roll in the rejuvenation of Catholic schools.

The Church's vision of Catholic schools is worth fighting for!

Comments

114 responses to “Does the Church Still Value Catholic Schools?”

  1. Guest Avatar
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    We shouldn't be fighting for what Catholic schools could be.  We should be fighting for what Catholic schools should be!

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    Why was it a mistake to have your children attend a Catholic school, Greg?

    Any ideas on what we can do to have our schools be more in line with the Church's vision?

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    I need an article or a discussion to connect the fabulous vision of Catholic Schools that the Church obviously holds (and was laid out above) to the horrific reality that some Catholic schools are currently in.

    I need concrete.  I need help.

    When the pastor, the principal, and the religion teacher all publicly either announce they don't know much of the Faith or they publicly teach heresy, what can one do?  Speaking up only targets your children with blackmail and coersion. 

    I know the value of GOOD Catholic schools that hold, embrace, and teach the beautiful Catholic Faith.  I can fight to maintain that.  But I don't know if one can fight to take what is enmeshed in heresy and bring it to the beautiful.

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    Having taught for more than a dozen years at two different parochial schools and having sent three of my children, but not the fourth, to parochial schools I believe that what the average person who is interested in parochial schools needs to know is that the institution is truly failing on many, many levels.  It was my experience both as a parent and as a teacher that the schools serve an elite few who call the shots and everyone else is considered disposable and expendable; whether we are talking about the children or the staff.  I have to give credit to the different groups I witnessed that tried to address the situation from every level imaginable (from school board membership to meeting with the pastor to writing the archdiocese) but always met with failure.  It doesn't seem as if the average, caring parent can make a difference so that the schools reflect all the quotes used in this article. 

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    lpioch–I am sorry your Catholic school is so poor on faith matters!  Our school a few years ago was also a "faith-lite" institution.  Our current principal has taken us from that to a faith-centered school.   Every day was/is a fight against 1) parents who don't want or care that their school is Catholic; 2) a dre and liturgical coordinator who insist that our psr program and religious instruction in our grade school are the "same, equal"–thus bending the ears of pastor and parishionners to not support,  either in the bulletin or church proper, the faith activities of the school; 3) a pastor who did not want to make people in the pews "uncomfortable" if they don't use the school–thus let us pretend it does not exist; 4) teachers who were not living the moral life–yep, not renewing the contracts of the two teachers (both divorced) who were dating; 5)how about sport games and/or practices on Sundays–got rid of those too….and the list goes on.

    It has not been easy.  THe fight has been a daily reality—meeting after meeting.  Over the past three years we have had at least 20 families leave…..and 20 NEW families come to our school.  We have weekly Mass, daily prayer in every class(multiple times a day), All Saints Parties as an alternative to halloweeen parties, Resurrection Celebrations as an alternative to the "Spring Celebrations".  We celebrate and live each day the liturgical year of the church.  Plus many more activities to participate in works of mercy–our students and their families.

     NONE of this has been possible without God.  We find it no mere coinicidence that three years ago, a group of moms started meeting after the school Mass every Friday to pray for the school.  Our prayer group has risen from five  to 15+.  We offer masses, rosaries and daily sacrifices for our school, our parish, our priests, principal, teachers, students, psr program, etc.  You get the point.  We truly believe it has been a holy mix of people willing to sacrifice–go against the crowd–be the unpopular voice–be willing to stand up for the Catholic identity of our school–sheer GRACE of God that has made the difference in our school.  It CAN be done.  We are living proof.  And yet we know we have much more to grow and look forward with hope and TRUST that God will lead our parish and school.

     Your situation sounds very gloomy in that none of the "players" seem to be on a solid faith journey.  START with prayer—sincere, serious, no-nonsense prayer.  He WILL lead you and your community. 

     I'll add your intentions to our Friday Prayer Group–yours and all those other Catholic schools that are struggling to BE CATHOLIC!

     Jesus, I Trust in You!

  6. Guest Avatar
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    We took our daughter out of Catholic School after 4th grade. Our disappointment was not only in the academics but in the teaching of the faith.  We had numerous meetings with the principal and teacher.  Our meetings even went as far as speaking to the Archdiocese.  Nothing changed, so we left.  One of the biggest issues was not only finding Protestant Bibles being used, but the Fourth grade class was learning about "Kwanza".  The textbooks being used were Public School texts, as that is what the Archdiocese recommended.  Mass was celebrated only once a week for the kids.  We brought in numerous good Catholic textbooks to show, but there was no interest. 

     

    On the academic side, the Math was one year behind the public school and two years behind a neighboring Christian school.  We homeschooled for 2 years after that experience.  We enrolled her in our public school at grade 7.  Our daughter is better prepared both academically and spiritually because of those two years at home.  She now is a Freshman in High School at a conservative public school.  She is 3 years ahead of her peers in Math (pre-calculus) but more importantly has had a sound Catholic education due to my husband's strong teaching.  She looks forward to being Confirmed next year.  But none of this is as a result of Catholic schools.

     My sister in law once asked a Mormon parent why they had their child in a Catholic school.  Her response was "there isn't much religion offered to offend anyone."  That seems to sum up my thoughts on Catholic education.

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    I must be very lucky indeed! My two children are enrolled in a Catholic school here in NJ; and I could not be happier!  Our principal (a Sister) is a wonderful, kind but firm and fair, "no nonsense" kind of leader.  Our Pastor is also supportive of the School.  They are receiving what I would consider to be a top quality education and the school is going through a "re-accreditation" process which will re-establish it to be on par with public "Blue Ribbon" schools.  The School's published mission is to provide the children with a top quality education while at the same time forming them with values COMPLETELY in accordance with the Magesterium.  No "touchy-feely" new age stuff here!  However, parents HAVE to be involved!  You can't toddle your kids off to school and expect the school to do your job for you!  The parents have to be the ones to initiate their children's education; while the school enhances it – ESPECIALLY the religious aspect!  Also, parent involvement in the school is paramount.  It is fool hearty at best to expect any school to do all your work for you.

     As an addendum, we are by no means part of the "elite". We are a middle income family.  Both my wife and I are working to be able to afford this. I work in the day; and she works part-time in the evenings so someone is home with our children at all times. It's a sacrifice, for sure; but one that we feel is worth it.  I realize that not everyonce can do this; and I am grateful to God that He is allowing us to to it.

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    LarryW2LJ,

    Although elite often refers to financial means (and there were certainly a few of those families) we found that in Catholic schools elite was more often the boy who threw the football the farthest or was able to rebound the most basketballs.  It was the family of the dad who owned the paving company and was able to pave the parking lot…

    And having been involved in the accreditation process of two parochial schools I can promise you that it is more paperwork than anything else.  Unfortunately there are no easy answers but it is important that those who are still involved in Catholic schools, and are finding them to be positive experiences, do their best to continue to steer them in the right direction. 

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    These documents speak of something that for the most part does not exist anymore.  I live in Philadelphia and have taught in inner city, suburban and rural Catholic schools since 1984.  I currently homeschool the precious gift of my only child. 

    Working on the inside I saw the deconstruction of academics with the use of updated textbooks that aren't worth the paper on which they are written.  History, math and science books contain errors and so few important facts as to be basically useless. History books never teach history from the Catholic perspective.  In fact they disparage the great achievements of the Church. When I taught algebra to accelerated students I had to use a 12 year old textbook because the new ones were so inadequate. If you have a child in school take a look at the textbooks in use now.  You might be unpleasantly surprised/offended.

    The new texts use many brightly colored graphics but are very week on actual facts. 

    Remember, the U.S. ranks very poorly in academics world-wide. We just "think" we're better.   Don't think that the Catholic schools should strive to be on par with "Blue Ribbon" schools.  That standard of achievement is very low.     

    I NEVER saw the passing on of the faith mentioned in these Catholic documents.  What little Orthodox Faith that made it's way past the heretical idiotic religion books was not reinforced in the home. My 7th graders couldn't say the rosary until I taught them the prayers and then of course many children in the school did not go to Sunday mass so we took them during the week.

    I thank you for quoting from these documents.  I wonder if there are any documents about Catholic education from the early 1900's or even the late 1800's when American Catholic schools were started and were actually accomplishing their mission.

    I agree that the Catholic schools have become a casualty of the "Spirit of Vatican II" but parents don't have to let their children fall prey to this.  If you can find ways to change your current school then praise God! If you can't, then consider homeschooling.  God will not abandon you in this decision.  There is much help available.  

    I know that a strong principal and many fervent prayers can go along way to change a school but what if you don't have a strong principal.

    Greg, please give concrete steps to take in order to help our Catholic schools.  I am afraid the vision is lost and many don't know what to do.  We are tired of "fighting" for the vision with no help from anyone.

    Thank you and God bless your efforts.

                

  10. Guest Avatar
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    I have been reading the articles on Catholic education with a great deal of interest. Just yesterday I was looking to find official Church documents regarding Catholic education, and am grateful to Greg for pointing out the ones that he quoted. In our community we are having a symposium on Catholic education – its past, present and future, with particular emphasis on an action plan to help Catholic education survive in our province (we are in Canada). There is talk of the home/church/school triad that is supposed to work together to make Catholic education work. In many communities – including mine – this triad has broken down. We have publicly funded Catholic schools, and parents can send their children to the schools only by showing a baptismal certificate. Because they are publicly funded, children of other faiths (particularly Muslim) can attend, which means some schools have chosen to water down the faith so as not to offend. Around and around we go.

    Many parents leave the faith instruction to the school, believing that if they send their kids to a Catholic school then they will get a Catholic education. Well, not necessarily, particularly if you have teachers who do not practice their faith or have not been well-catechized themselves. You wouldn't believe some of the hooey my kids have come home with, particularly at the high school level. (Like the geography teacher who said that he and his wife were not going to have any children, since "overpopulation contributes to global warming"…)

    I could go on and on, as I am rather passionate about this subject, but, like "on a journey", I will just keep praying.

  11. Guest Avatar
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    Thank you to Greg and all others for their comments.  They have helped me tremendously in figuring out what I should do for my children's education.

  12. Guest Avatar
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    Unfortunately, most of the people I come into contact with believe that all you need to do to have a "Catholic" school is to mount a crucifix on the wall.

    When my kids were in "Catholic" school, the subject matter in the older grades was focused on being politically correct: White European Dead Males were bad, the Church "imposed" religion on the noble American Indian, etc. etc.  Also, other than the religion book, all of the books came from the State of Illinois.  On top of that, in the 7th grade, the religion class was taught by the teacher who'd been divorced, never received an annulment, and was going on to the next marriage because this is what she felt was "right" for her.  This discussion occured during the talk on the Sacraments and specifically about marriage.  We put our foot down and out we went.

    For the next two years we homeschooled and discovered to our surprise and horror that the materials our kids had been using were completely secular and the awesome materials we received from Seton were CATHOLIC and really taught the Faith throughout the curriculum, not just the religion class.

    Our kids are in public school now and are going to religious education (CCD), but my wife and I realize that we are the true teachers of the faith to our kids. 

    As far as I'm concerned, if a tornado knocked our parish school down I'd say good riddance.

  13. Guest Avatar
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    St. Jean Vianney called the ignorance of our faith one of the greatest sins we could have.  "We are convinced," he declared, " that this sin alone causes the loss of more souls than all the other sins together, because he who is ignorant does not realize the harm he does by his sin, nor the great good he thus forfeits."

    We can see in our day that this is very true, we are failing to teach the Catholic faith in our schools, churches and homes and this leads to many others sins that could be avoided entirely.

    Sexual issues and purity is one of many areas that we fail entirely in instructing our youth.  If we could understand purity and teach it as the church defines it, there would be a major moral change in this country.  But we dont teach it, because we dont even know ourselves what true Christian Purity and love is.  Contraception is but one example, we poo poo the churches teaching and our ignorance on this issue leads us to other sins like abortion and many more.

    I hope our Catholic schools can get back to teaching about God first and the faith then worry about academics and other worldly concerns secondary.  In the mean time we will continue to homeschool our children.

  14. Guest Avatar
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    To the above sender that said to keep on fighting.  I do agree with her about this, but here in our community we've got the same deal going on with the lukewarmness in our Pastor,the head of the school.  We also have a mandated Sex Ed program in the school.  Yes, I have a very good Archbishop (here in Denver) but there are still some of the old nun's with the old mentality that we have to have a sex education program in the school.  This is the parents job and not the job of the school.  I choose to keep all my kids out of the school and we have our CATHOLIC school at HOME! Laughing  I choose not to fight all those people and pay that high cost of sending them there when I can just do it myself.  I don't trust them with my kids and really unless you know for sure that it is a good school, you shouldn't either.   I do think that if the schools aren't truly Catholic then shut them down.  Just my two cents.

    God Bless,

    Kelly 

    Thanking God everyday for the Gift of staying home and home schooling my children. 🙂

  15. Guest Avatar
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    While I do cannot personally judge the history of Catholic schools prior to Vatican II, but it seems that the second-to-none attitude of excellence that permeated the Catholic schools before Vatican II and before the liberals grappled with the system, that the Catholic school system races towards a new dynamic, towards a new goal of not only matching the world's thinking but a new educational philosophy summed up in one word:  MEDIOCRITY.   And, wow[!] they have matched that effort with stunning success. 

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    I agree w/littlemamaof5 in that I can do this myself, and my husband and I are 100% satisfied.  There is no worry or concern about the teacher, curriculum, etc.  Also, it is much less expensive for a much better education at home.  The astonishing tuition rates posted at our "Catholic" schools are not possible for us to pay for more than 1 child, and we have 10 children.  The entire idea of "Catholic" school is silly to us…..ridiculous rates, curriculum geared to compete w/ PUBLIC schools(that's such a sick joke that it makes me gasp), along w/teachers, parents, and administrative personnel that aren't interested in solid Catholic education is just too big for me to muster up the energy to change.  I'm just not interested when I can do it myself so much better. 

  17. Guest Avatar
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    I can certainly understand that if there must be school, a genuinely Catholic school is best.  But what is the rationale for school per se?What is the intial rationale for taking young children out of the home and institionalizing them?  Mass production lowers cost and increases efficiency? Haven't the elite families in every society hired tutors to teach their children at home? Where in those Church documents is the rationale for school?

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    mary,

    You mean you would deny your child the natural socialization of being put in a room with 24 other children of the exact same age and doing the exact same activities as everyone else?   How will they be prepared for real life?

    (sarcasm alert)

  19. Guest Avatar
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    So what is the answer to the question asked in the title?

  20. Guest Avatar
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    National Association Private Catholic Independent Schools- NAPCIS-

    Currently my children attend an excellent Catholic school loyal to the magesterium and pope.  http://www.pioacademy.org It was started and is run by lay people. 

    It was easier to abandon the broken parish school model.  Tuition is geared towards larger family i.e. it is not "cost based".  The deficit for running the school is left in God's able hands.  There are several fund raising activities throughout the school year.

    You are correct in that when you question heretical teachings at the local parish school, etc you are labelled a "kook", etc.  Soon you begin to wonder if you are the only Catholic parent who cares that something is rotten in the school.   Do a google search for NAPCIS and see if there is a small school near you.  Or maybe God is calling you to start up a school.

  21. Guest Avatar
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    Yes, this is what a group of parents in my parish did and my oldest granddaughter goes there. I homeschool 3 others and we will probably not put any others in school after this oldest one gets out of that school in 8th grade. We are doing K-12 and I love the program. Completely free and very high quality. Is it Catholic? No. But we make it Catholic.

  22. Guest Avatar
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    Wow…This is so depressing!

     I consider myself blessed. We have 10 children, all have attended Catholic Grade school, high School, and college. True, not all of our children, had the best teachers, but they did learn the faith, from the school and from us, and associated with other kids and families who believed in the Catholic faith.

    One of our children needed to attend a public school for special Ed. That was an experience in itself. We also enrolled him in CCD or PSR. They met every two weeks for one hour. The teacher in PSR, the deacons's wife, was the same person who removed any discussion about Natural Family Planning from the Marriage prep class, was upset the Church did not allow women priests, and thought that abortion was acceptible. I believe she thought her goal was to straighten out any Catholic who followed Church teaching. She scoffed at the Catechism. I bought one for every student in the eighth grade class. She sent her kids to the public school, where they wouldn't be indoctrinated by Catholic teachers. Finally,we were able to move. In the seventh grade we were able to enroll him in a good Catholic School.

    Fortunately, we are able to teach our children what the Catholic Church teaches ourselves. But the church has bigger problems than what is taught in our grade schools. Only 30% of Catholics attend mass every week, 50% get divorced, 80 to 90% use artificial contraception. We are just as immoral as society. We vote for candidates that favor abortion, gay rights, embryonic stem cell research. If a bishop stands up for our faith, many "catholics" are embarrassed, or write disparaging letters to the editor. Few want to be priest or nuns, everyone wants to be the Pope and decide what we want to believe on our own. Cafeteria Catholics to the max.

    Greg, your question should be "Does the Church still value the teachings of Jesus Christ?"  We don't learn our faith from the pulpit. Our only hope is the Catholic school. Let us work to make them better!

  23. Guest Avatar
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    Mary, I didn't realize that you homeschooled.  I'm impressed!  You certainly have a full plate.

  24. Guest Avatar
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    I've given up sleeping.

    Email me, please, Claire.

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    Greg, if you want the honest answer then yes the hierarchy of the Church apparently does value Catholic schools.  The more significant question is DO CATHOLIC PARENTS VALUE CATHOLIC SCHOOLS?  We, after all, are charged with passing on the faith to our children.  From all the dicussions here it seems obvious that we don't see many redeeming qualities in the Catholic schools.  Homeschooling and other alternative means of education are in the majority. 

    Since I have the right and duty to educate my child in the faith I have discerned that the local Catholic school will not teach her the basic tenets of the faith. I won't sacrifice her mind or soul to the vision of documents written in the late 1900's.  Did the writers of those documents know what was happening to the Catholic school system during those years ?  Did they really want to subject the students to the heresy and innoculate them against the faith just for a vision?   I pray not but that is what happened. 

    Quoting from these documents will not deter this weary faithful warrior from running far away from the Catholic school system.     

  26. Guest Avatar
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    Rakeys — in what way is our only hope the Catholic school? How did the Church survive for well over a thousand years without Catholic schools?

  27. Guest Avatar
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    The article's title implies a question that is not definitively answered, and that question goes deeper than the subject matter of the article. "Does the Church still value Catholic schools?" is meaningless unless we first define the nature of the Catholic school. What, in the first instance, is a Catholic school? We should presume nothing; indeed, I propose that we deconstruct the very concept of school, if only to avoid offending those who value deconstruction.

    Google makes available The Merriam-Webster New Book of Word Histories, which offers an etymology of the word, school. "School" traces its way back through the Latin word, schola, to the Greek root, scholë, meaning leisure. Around 30 B.C. the Greek root began to connote the meaning of "a place of learning," which is the meaning it acquired in Latin and then passed on to English. So the first question one must ask is whether the place of education of one's children is truly a place of learning. It is further possible to suggest that the "leisure" meaning of the Greek root is focused on the person who might be at leisure. If so then combining the two together, we can impute a meaning thus:

    A school is a place of learning which centers on the human person as an individual. It is not a place of learning that focuses primarily on particular groups nor on fostering the most technically efficient means of imparting an education.

    If we really accept such a twofold definition (learning and person-centered), then none of the institutions criticized in these comments is a school. Whether or not they are Catholic is another question whose answer is readily provided in the comments, but I would go so far as to say that any institution which exhibits the qualities criticized in these comments disqualifies itself first of all from schooldom. Only if the place of learning is both able and willing to address each student as an individual human person can it even begin to call itself a school. The rest mire themselves in the folly of self-delusion.

    But if indeed an institution is a school, what then makes it Catholic? One might define Catholicity as an absolute abstraction that is in no way doubled over against itself. This abstraction is separate from the murky notions of catholicity presented in this world inasmuch as the perfect abstraction of Catholicity bears no murkiness. One might further define it in opposition to that which is not Catholic, that is to say in opposition to that which defines in itself all that which opposes Catholicity and contains within itself nothing that does not oppose perfect Catholicity. We thus have two abstract extremes, but as Socrates observes, few are those who truly find themselves at the extreme ends of the continuum and many are those in the middle. So Catholic applied to any individual human person can only be applied inasmuch as that person participates in the perfect abstraction of Catholicity, and it un-applies itself inasmuch as the same person participates in Catholicity's opposite. And so one is not really more or less Catholic. Rather one simply participates in the perfection of this abstract Catholicity or one does not, and this participation applies to whatever the person is doing at a given point in time. Thus, sin – including heresy – is an act of repudiation of perfect Catholicty, embracing instead its opposite.

    Now, this is an acceptable (though simplified) presentation of the classical notion of participation in extremes of abstraction, but Catholicity is unique among all abstractions in that it does not remain abstract. This abstract notion is made flesh through its relationship to the God-man who founded it. Thus, participation in this abstraction is no mere act of saying Yea here and Nay there. Rather, it is a question of faithfulness to the one without whom this notion would be abstract. And here I refer to faithfulness as that personified (and not personified) by the marital relationship between Hosea and Gomer. This notion of faithfulness is not that of believing in the God whom we cannot see but rather that of remaining true to the spouse whom we can see. Gomer is not faithful; Hosea is commanded by God to remain faithful nonetheless. Hosea's faith in the unseen God cements his will towards faithfulness to the unfaithful Gomer. But his faithfulness to Gomer is concrete, demonstrable, and easily observable.

    So here's the rub: How does the institution make physically present the abstract notion of Catholicity in its halls? Does it? If not, there ought to be considerable question as to whether the institution is Catholic at all, even if it could qualify itself as a school. But there are only two ways to enflesh this particular abstraction. First, a priest can offer the Holy Sacrifice. Second, a human person can embody the abstraction and put its principles into practice. The first example is the perfect example. The second one is necessarily imperfect, for even the perfectly formed human will can waiver, and the perfectly open heart can fail in the execution of particular works. But this is nothing if not an argument for the traditional Church teaching that favors orthodoxy (right thinking) over orthopraxis (right action). The question always is: does the will submit to God, and when properly corrected, does the will seek to make those corrections its own?

    Put another way, is the abstraction of Catholicity taught in its entirety and in accord with the maturity and station of those being taught? Then, do the teachers seek to put this abstraction into practice (the imperfect enfleshing of the abstraction cited above)? And just as importantly, do they seek reconciliation when they fail?

    Many homeschools meet these criteria for schooldom and Catholicity. Many parish institutions do not. Thus, when we say, "support Catholic schools," what exactly do we mean? Are we focused on those places that call themselves Catholic schools, or should we opt instead to restrict our focus to those places that are Catholic schools in fact? We should always seek to guide the former towards becoming the latter, as an act of simple charity. But while wayward institutions are busy with their travels, can we really trust them with our children?

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    HomeschoolNfpDad.  Everything you stated can just as easily be applied to "homeschoolers" as "Catholic schools".  The only difference between the two is that Catholic schools being more "public", tend to get their dirty laundry "publicized".  Homeschoolers being more "private", don't.  Although there are some exemplary homeschoolers in our area, there are some that are far from exemplary…just like Catholic schools.

    Why perceive Catholic schools and homeschooling as an either/or instead of a both/and?  Homeschoolers need to get beyond their insecurities.  The intention of this article was not "anti-homeschooling".  I have no problem with homeschooling – since the Church has no problem homeschooling.

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    Greg,

    The simple answer to the headline of the article, if we the people are the Church, is yes.  Because many people who are marginally Catholic send their kids to the schools.  Also, many people who have no intention of becoming Catholic send their kids too.  The Church can't do anything but support the idea of Catholic schools.  In that idea is beauty and hope and faith and charity.  The Church and the Magisterium have to support Catholic schools.

    GK – God is good!

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    But, since most Catholic schools teach weak Catholicism I do not support them.  And if I and other people like me are the Church, then the asnwer to the headline of the article is and emphatic NO.  I'd rather have them all shut down.  I think the "market" they serve would be taken over by groups that want Prepatory school and are willing to pay for that outside of Catholic schools.  There would be no loss in Catholic faith or service because as it is most teaching in Catholic schools is not Catholic.

    Once the Prepatory schools were thriving, much smaller, truly Catholic schools would take form.  They would not be seen as "Prepatory" schools, because Prepatory schools would be something else entirely.  They'd be Catholic schools that valued Catholicism more than secular prepatory education.  And thus, they would actually have better education based on Truth and true knowledge.

    But, now I realize that that Truth is attractive.  And again the Prepatory minded parents would take their kids out of the weaker Prepatory Schools and send them to the better Catholic schools.  It would start all over again with weak Catholic schools.  So, maybe the answer is just to attend Catholic schools as they are, wishy washy and all. Maybe you get lucky and find a Catholic school that truly teaches.  Otherwise you just put up with the heresy and rebuild their false teachings into true teachings at home.

    Good luck with your issues.  I love the Church but I just know that teaching them the faith at home is the best thing to do in the current culture and environment.  (I do send them to CCD.  I teach CCD myself.  But, I know it is barely adequet and full of failings/humanness.  I send them to CCD so that they feel a part of the local Church and know that it is very-very-very good but it doesn't have the right resources to teach the faith.  And I do not talk down about the school or church in anger.  I just present the faith and we all pray for the goodness of the parish and the school.)

    God bless all those involved with their local Catholic schools.  It is beautiful and gives me hope.  Transforming the world is what we are called to do.  You are spot on. 

    I for one will continue to send them to the public schools in hope that they feel part of the community and learn to swim with the fish.  But, I will teach them about the faith at home and keep them involved with the parish (through CCD and other ministries).  I hope to help them love the truth of their faith and the beauty of the community/parish as it exists.  Maybe they will be able to link with people in ways I can't in order to improve the schools when they become parents/religious.  I do hope that Christ doesn't see me as the stupid servent who buried his talent instead of investing it.  At times I worry that I am.  But, I know my life would be too angry if I tried to fight the Catholic school system.  It just doesn't want to be Catholic.

    GK – God is good!

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    Greg, what insecurities are you diagnosing in me?  I am human and thus a great sinner. God calls me to holiness anyway. It is He who directs my path in homeschooling.  Of that have NO doubt.

    Surely you know of the origin of public schools.  They originated in England in the 1700's in order to subdue the masses.  When the Catholic schools were instituted they simply adopted the public school model and Catholized it.  They gave the sisters the herculean task of instilling the faith and teaching math, science, history, English etc… to children artificially grouped together by cronological ages. These sisters I'm sure did their best but the system was intrinsically flawed.  When the society began to loose the faith it struck the schools with a mighty force.  Most schools have never recovered and the cost to human hearts was devastating.  Who knows the numbers of souls who lost their faith because of watered down faith or heresy taught in Catholic schools?  Pray mightily for them all.

     

     

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    I would never support a school unless it was Catholic, I completely agree with most of you.

    But what do we do?  The CHurch is clear that it very much values CAtholic schools.  Homeschooling is a great option for some, but what about all the others?  What do we do for the "family" that is our parish?  There is an obvious danger of the socialist mentality that wants to use institutions like schools to take over for the family.  There is another danger in individualism saying I'll take care of my own, and to hell with the rest of the kids.     

    As our state schools become increasing secular, surely the option of Catholic schools cannot go away. 

    There has never been a greater need for "true Catholic schools".  Never!

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    What is "possible" is only possible with he help and cooperation of the local bishop.  Since we have bishops who can not even agree on what Catholic teaching IS, I do not see how we can rebuild Catholic education in the present ecclesial climate.  We will continue to Home school our kids, and they will very likely home school our grand children as well (they have already said so).  Most bishops are content to give papal awards to the most liberal nuns in their educational systems so that seminarians suffer and children suffer.  I live in a place where the chancery officials actually worked hard to get EWTN off the cable system years ago.  I predict that a parallel catholic school system will evolve which will be lay run and lay owned.  It will not bear the name "Catholic" in order to escape the bishop's control.  In some places this is already being done.  It is sad, but it is a reality.  We, the Church are a broken family.  When "dad" (meanung the bishop) finally "comes home" (meaning restores sacred tradition), only then will parents begin entrusting their children to a diocesan system. 

    When it comes to the US bishops, we no longer consider what they "say" they believe… we only consider their actions

     

     

     

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    Greg,

    1.)You: "Homeschoolers need to get beyond their insecurities."

    Me: I think that was kinda mean.  Sweetie, many of us homeschoolers realize we are charged with the moral development of our children so we do not want to risk it and hope for the best.  We know the poor state of our gov't educational system and the poor state of our Catholic schools, so we take the responsibility upon ourselves.  That's it….no insecurities.Smile

    2.)You: "But what do we do?", "…what about all the others?", "What do we do for the "family" that is our parish?"

    Me: I do not know what the answer is.  I'd love to come up w/the perfect Rx to fix it!  Perhaps the answer lies in the homeschool, co-op, cottage school movement.  We are in these situations because we want the same thing as you…a solid Catholic life and education for our children.  We do NOT say "…and to hell with the rest of the kids", and we do NOT think it nor do we have an attitude reflective of that thought.  Many more people are joining in the "do-it-yourself" crowd every year so maybe the Lord is rejuvinating Catholic education from this direction, just a thought.  So, just like any large task, the best way to accomplish it is by putting one foot in front of the other in the way that makes the most sense.  Maybe you have what it takes to lead a movement to rejuvinate Catholic school.  (I do not, and I am secure in that , ha haLaughing! )

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    From what I see from the documents the Chuch wants the schools in order to pass on the faith. This probably evolved during a time when most parents were not educated enough to do so. When the schools no longer do that, and the parents have the means to do so in terms of education and resources, those particular parents don't need the school for their own children. So the only thing left to say to sell them on it is that they should be thinking of "all the others" and that if they don't support the schools they are failing "all the others." But if the schools aren't passing on the faith, of what benefit are the schools to these "others?"

    If you considered it a mistake to send your own daughter to a  Catholic school, how can you ask us who are already bearing the burden of educating our own children to bear in addition the cost of putting other people's children in Catholic school?

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    Whoa…the "mistake" I was talking about when sending my children to a Catholic school was the "mistake of realizing the goodness of them".  I used to be in the "I hate Catholic schools and want to close them crowd" too.  I considered running away too. 

    I'm sorry I wasn't clear.  Sending my kids to the Catholic school helped cure me of this.  That is why I felt Catholic schools were worth fighting for.  My kids go to Catholic schools.

    Please…one of the documents is from the 2nd Vatican Council.  You are going to have a hard time dismissing them and sleeping well at night if you are a committed Catholic.  The documents quoted were written quite recently.  The latest in 1998.  Those are not old documents.  We're dancing here.

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    Concerning home-schooling, please allow me to re-iterate a post from about a month ago. 

    There seem to be some folks in the "homeschool" crowd that are convinced that they need to lambast Catholic schools – evidently in order to rationalize their homeschooling?  I honestly don't know – please help me here.

    I think homeschooling is valid even when there is a good Catholic school available.  I am not against homeschoolers.  I am against homeschoolers who seem to take much glee is ridiculing struggling Catholic schools.

    Folks, these Catholic schools are STRUGGLING!  Why kick 'em while they are down?

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    I'm dismayed that the general response to poor faith formation has been to home school entirely, or to turn to public schools and homeschool the faith.  As a long time educator in both Catholic and public schools, what I find is that the public schools are the human equivalent of puppy mills.  Very Darwinian.  Catholic schools that try to model themselves on public schools are the same.

    My dismay stems from the lack of interest in reaching out to the whole church community by sending your well-formed children to the Catholic school, and working to your last breath to improve formation for all.  We all need to be warriors for Christ at this time, and homeschooling then becomes conscientious objection, rather than engagement.

    It seems a real abdication of responsibility to the church to walk away from Catholic schools, whether through heresy (poorly formed faith taught in schools) or through a misguided notion of protectionism (home schools).

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    Thank you Greg for taking this on. 

     

    MKochan–"how can you ask us who are already bearing the burden of educating our own children to bear in addition the cost of putting other people's children in Catholic school?" 

     

    What exactly do you mean here?  Do you mean your weekly tithe is given to the parish school?

     

    Jesus, I Trust in You!

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    Scarl, you have no idea the impact of homeschoolers on Catholic schools.  In my own parish the homeschoolers interact with the school children throughout the year. We are very involved in the parish and the school.  Our homeschoolers have inspired some to give up immodest dressing, join the prayer group and get rid of cable TV.  Do you really think that the Holy Spirit does not use us to do His will?  We are not hiding under a bushel basket.  We have inspired change.  The Catholic school now uses an authentically Catholic religion series.  One recommended by homeschoolers to the pastor.

    My child is well formed in the faith but I don't kid myself that the secular culture could never influence her.  Why should my child have the responsibilty of transmitting the faith and fighting the culture at the tender age of 6 or 8 or 13?  That is too big a burden to put on her. 

    Maybe we homeschoolers have dealt with the devil and just don't want to have our children's souls put up for grabs.  

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    Most of the Catholic school kids and home-schooled kids have a very positive relationship here.  We have had several home-school kids join our Catholic schools in middle school or high school.  Many have a very strong faith and thus their impact is very noticiable.

    Frankly, the greatest need of Catholic schools is strong Catholic families utilizing them.  The impact is extraordinary! 

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    I think it is completely bogus to say that homeschoolers find it necessary to lambaste the Catholic schools as though they were imagining the problems and had to make them up to justify teaching their own children. From my standpoint I know almost nothing about the diocesan school system since it simply does not exist where I live. I know about the problems in general just from what others say and what I read about it. I don't think they are making things up. The relationship between homeschoolers and the private Catholic school recently established in my parish is very positive.

    It is a very common point of discussion (to keep the terminology neutral) for homeschoolers to be asked WHY they are homeschooling as opposed to putting their children in school, Catholic or otherwise. Also there are a number of people who are homeschooling who would be glad to put their children in an affordable genuinely Catholic school if one existed in their community. So naturally when these people answer the query, they are going to say why they found the school option unsuitable for their child. If their frank response equals a lack of support for Catholic schools, well so be it. It is what it is.

    I love the way you highlight what the schools need. Your bottom line comes down to that we should consider the needs of the schools and use our children to fill THEIR need. Uh, sorry Greg, I am too busy and finacially strapped caring for the needs of MY KIDS! You want to sell me on this — prove that MY KIDS NEED THE SCHOOL, don't try to tell me what the schools need. That is so backwards.

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    If as the documents say that Catholic Schools are the natural outgrowth of the evangelization of the church, we are not sacrificing our young to them, but contributing to the growth of the church.  My point is that by homeschooling, you decide to separate, become something other, not engaged in the church as a whole.  Not that you are sacrificing your children, but that the parents are not being fully Catholic.

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    on a journey — no, I was responding to what Greg said about how we need to consider other people's children.

    Technically that is what I am doing anyway because the children to whose education I am seeing are grandkids, but he emant other families. At some point I just really have to wonder how much blood people think they can get out of turnip with this stuff. Between the taxes for the public school which we don't use, the expense of a kid in a private Catholic school — partially borne by the other grandparents, the doicesan committment that goes to support the Catholic schools that we don't use and the cost of providing lessons in TKD and music for the children, none of which their parents are in position to do, I am sorry. I don't really care who the heck you are — you start talking to me about taking care of other people's kids and the hair just about stands up on the back of my neck.

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    Scarl, I am not even going to bother to answer that because while you reveal perfectly what Catholics in education or who send their kids to Catholic school so often REALLY think about the homeschoolers they pretend to respect, I know there are other homeschoolers commenting here who will give you the thorough trouncing you deserve. I'll just sit back and watch.

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    MKochan.. you asked me why I place my hope in the Catholic Schools and mention that the Church survived for over a 1000 years without Catholic Schools.

    Mary, the Church is still "surviving"..over one billion catholics worldwide.

    My hope is in the Catholic schools because nationwide only 2% of students are homeschooling. The vast majority of Catholic children are in Catholic School or PSR, and are not homeschooled. But as I said earlier many "catholics" don't know their faith, some who know their faith choose not to follow it, and only 30 % of Catholics even go to Mass every Sunday. One study showed that only 30% of Catholics believe in the true presence of Jesus in the Eucharist. Guess what 30% that is.

    How do you place your hope in homeschooling if most Catholic parents don't know their faith well enough to teach it, or more importantly, follow it?

    My hope is in the Catholic school because it has the ability to reach the greatest number of people. My wife and I chose to send our 10 children to Catholic Grade school , high school and college. We also teach Confirmation class to 8th graders, My wife teaches PSR, I coach Soccer, basketball, and baseball. My players also see me help the youth group by sponsoring Luke 18 weekends. The families we have met at the school are some of the most faith filled people I know. Most of the teachers my children have, and the ones who have influenced their lives the most, are very faith filled examples of serving god. True some are not good teachers, but that also exists in public school and homeschool also.

    Catholics like you, who know the most about their faith, and care about their faith are the ones we need to get involved in school. Talk to the principal, the pastor, volunteer to help, get involved with the youth group, encourage adult faith formation, make sure our students hear the beautiful message about our faith.

    Continue to teach your children at home, as we did. Our children need to know how to live in a world that is becoming increasingly secular and anti Christian. Even Catholics tear down the church, its priests, and the teachings they don't like. Our kids have learned how to follow their faith in spite of negative comments and peer pressure. Fortunately tend to associate with other Catholic kids with their same values.

     

    Greg, Thank you for bringing up this important topic. It sounds like all the commenters have a deep belief in their faith and desire that everyone has it, and are upset that not everyone is able to put it in practice. Maybe we can all pray and roll up our sleeves and get it done.

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    When did I ever say that I "place my hope in homeschooling"? Whatever that means.

    There isn't a diocesan Catholic school in my area.  (I think I said that already.) But it would be quite irrelevent as we couldn't afford it anyway. We help out the private Catholic school in our area, though.  But we won't be able to afford to send the rest of the kids there, nor do we want our kids in school period. We happen to like what we are able to do with them in our home environment.

    I am sure you mean well but you don't know anything about my life or my schedule and it is pretty nervy of you to attempt to give me a prescription for what I should do.

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    Scarl,

     You: "If as the documents say that Catholic Schools are the natural outgrowth of the evangelization of the church, we are not sacrificing our young to them, but contributing to the growth of the church.  My point is that by homeschooling, you decide to separate, become something other, not engaged in the church as a whole.  Not that you are sacrificing your children, but that the parents are not being fully Catholic."

    Me: Whoa!  Wait. Whaaaat?  Do you really think that people who homeschool are not fully Catholic?  Am I reading this correctly?  This really appears to be an absurd statement.

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    Actually, Greg, you have my admiration to bring your arguments into this particular crowd (more in a moment) with such persistence. And you are right. But so are we. This argument has assumed an adversarial form, but only (I think) because so many of us are dumped into the adversary bucket almost before we get a chance to speak. It is common for our colleagues and even our friends to ask us when we will be sterilized or to laugh out loud at the possibility that we might have yet another child (at least, this has been my experience). And yet were we to return these hurtful comments in opposite form – e.g. don't tell me you're stopping at only three – we would receive withering criticism. And we have received this kind of withering criticism, though we have not precipitated it

    There seems to be a peculiar misunderstanding of aggiornamento that manifests itself too often in Catholic circles. Somewhere, someone seems to have suggested that aggiornamento means you never enter into adversarial discussion with your friends, that somehow it is both necessary and sufficient that you be nice. And yet Jesus did not behave in this way. To the young man who kept all of God's commandments, he said, "Sell everything, give your money to the poor, and follow me." And his Sermon on the Mount, if we paid attention to it, would be a withering criticism of the way that most of us (especially me) live our lives. Clearly, adversarial discussions not only are permitted into the Catholic life but they must be permitted.

    And so I doubly commend you for your persistence and indeed charity here.

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    However.. (there had to be a however)

     

    Please…one of the documents is from the 2nd Vatican Council.  You are going to have a hard time dismissing them and sleeping well at night if you are a committed Catholic.

    I shall have to read that one in its entirety. If the term is specifically defined as "parish school" or "Diocesan school," then of course our arguments are dismissive, and we shall have to modify them – and our behavior as well. But if the term is simply "Catholic school," then we have already discovered such in our homes, and the documents will make us stand more firmly in our current positions. But judgment must be reserved until the documents are read.

    There seem to be some folks in the "homeschool" crowd that are convinced that they need to lambast Catholic schools – evidently in order to rationalize their homeschooling?

    I think its a bit different. There are two crowds in whose convergence I have have lived: the homeschooling crowd and the chaste marriage crowd (including NFP folks). It is not a perfect convergence, but many of the chastity people are also the homeschooling people, and vice-versa. My experience is that this crowd is very often the first to sign up on volunteer rosters at the parish, the first to commit to serving on retreat weekends, and generally the first to commit their children to altar service. And these are mere examples. However, this crowd is almost universally marginalized within their own parishes, either ignored (perhaps in the hope that we will go away) or actively chastised and dismissed because we make an effort to follow the Church's teaching.

    And that hurts. Deep. In my own case, it has almost driven me from the Church, and I am but 4 years Catholic. I cannot imagine the torments suffered by longer-enduring souls.

     

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    My point is that by homeschooling, you decide to separate, become something other, not engaged in the church as a whole. Not that you are sacrificing your children, but that the parents are not being fully Catholic.

    This argument goes against the teaching of the Church. Lemen Gentium 11 (emphasis mine):

    Finally, Christian spouses, in virtue of the sacrament of Matrimony, whereby they signify and partake of the mystery of that unity and fruitful love which exists between Christ and His Church,(108) help each other to attain to holiness in their married life and in the rearing and education of their children. By reason of their state and rank in life they have their own special gift among the people of God. From the wedlock of Christians there comes the family, in which new citizens of human society are born, who by the grace of the Holy Spirit received in baptism are made children of God, thus perpetuating the people of God through the centuries. The family is, so to speak, the domestic church. In it parents should, by their word and example, be the first preachers of the faith to their children; they should encourage them in the vocation which is proper to each of them, fostering with special care vocation to a sacred state.

    Pope John Paul II cites this heavily in Familiaris Consortio, for example in Number 65:

    Therefore, it must be emphasized once more that the pastoral intervention of the Church in support of the family is a matter of urgency. Every effort should be made to strengthen and develop pastoral care for the family, which should be treated as a real matter of priority, in the certainty that future evangelization depends largely on the domestic Church.

    As the domestic Church, the family is a complete Church. In the worst case scenario (think Japan during decades and centuries when there were no priests), the family can continue in full communion with the Church on its own, without forming into, say, a parish community. That, obviously, is not the preferred approach. But the homeschooling family specifically does not choose separation from the Church but rather chooses to accept the calling, given by God, to assume full responsibility for all the education of one's children. This responsibility is primarily that of mother and father, and they are nowhere required to relinquish any of it to anyone.

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    Let's not forget that homeschooling families are beginning to excel in the production of vocations.  Who knows maybe it will be the homeschooled religious who save the Catholic schools.

    (Yes, MichelleGA, you read it right.)

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    I will say it again… IT'S THE BISHOPS!  This is a complete waste of words if the bishops are not shepherding souls!

    The bishops are controlled by their lay diocesan "experts".

    When you have a problem in your Catholic school because your 10th grader is studying "Catcher in the Rye" in literature… the bishop is going to stand behind the principal "Sr. Mary Nazi" (who wears her habit on her lapel). I am speaking from firsthand experience here!

    Come on… give me a break!  How can anyone take most Catholic schools seriously anymore?

    In case you have not understood… let me say it more clearly…

    I T 'S    T H E   B I S H O P S  !

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    Right — the schools exist to assist Catholic parents in their duty and are legitimate ONLY in so far as they do that. But while the schools are obligated to so assist the parents, the parents use or nonuse of that assistance is entirely their prerogative.

    The right and duty of parents to give education is essential, since it is connected with the transmission of human life; it is original and primary with regard to the education role of others…it is irreplaceable and inalienable, and therefore incapable of being entirely delegated to others or usurped by others.-Familiaris Consortio, Pope John Paul II

    Since they [parents] have conferred life on their children, parents have the original, primary, and inalienable right to educate them; hence they must be acknowledged as the first and foremost educators of their children.
    Parents have the right to educate their children in conformity with their moral and religious convictions, taking into account the cultural traditions of the family… Charter of the Rights of the Family, Pope John Paul II

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    Mary:  I really think you hit the nail on the head with the comment "I love the way you highlight what the schools need. Your bottom line comes down to that we should consider the needs of the schools and use our children to fill THEIR need. Uh, sorry Greg, I am too busy and finacially strapped caring for the needs of MY KIDS! You want to sell me on this — prove that MY KIDS NEED THE SCHOOL, don't try to tell me what the schools need. That is so backwards."

    I really have the impression that when people start demanding that we support (diocesan) Catholic schools, they are mostly interested in the needs of the school (and those who work for them and earn their living in them), as opposed to what an individual child needs.  My oldest son is best off at home.  My middle son I could probably put into any old school: public, Catholic, whatever, he'd do great.  Our youngest:  too early to tell.  He goes to a non-denominational preschool school.  (The local Catholic schools do not have the preschool options that we want)

    I don't know too much about the diocesan school in our area.  I know they are slowly expanding grade options.  They dropped some grades awhile ago, but are slowly adding back.  We've got a great bishop here who is really pro-Catholic education:  and he has taken a liking to local independant Catholic school.

    One of the local Diocesan Catholic schools offers an after school science class that is open to all, and gets a mention on the local homeschool group's website.  We've thought about joining this year.

    Interestingly enough, the Seton homeschool program has on its home page that it is under the auspices (or something to that effect) of the local bishop (which I think is the Bishop of Arlington).  Doesn't that then make Seton a Catholic School?  I do not see Seton making demands that anyone "support" them.

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    As to needs, we can get practical very quickly: there is a large group of homeschooling families who long to discover a genuinely Catholic high school (or even a nominally Catholic high school) that is less than 30 or 40 miles away from their home. Many will homeschool through the 8th grade and then send their children to public school, boarding school or even to a nearby Evangelical or Protestant high school. Efforts to expand the reach of Catholic high schools might pique the interest of many homeschool families, who would then take it upon themselves to ensure that nothing untoward occurred from the initial founding of the high school. There is even a high school near our home (though still some 30 miles away or so) that will offer high school credits on a class-by-class basis. They get lots of homeschooling families taking a class or two, which helps pay the bills.

    and he has taken a liking to local independant Catholic school

    If you'll simply go to your local T.O.R.C.H. or ARCH or Holy Family or other homeschooling group, you will find an unincorporated, independent Catholic school, whose parents provide all of the funding and all of the labor. How do we join this to an incorporated Catholic school without surrendering control of schooling to that school's staff? In other words, how many incorporated Catholic schools will treat a T.O.R.C.H. or ARCH group as a strict peer, to be dealt with as with equals? That (unfortunately too distant) nearby Catholic high school down in western Houston seems to accomplish this. Why not the parish school?

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    Our local diocese made it clear that the they did not approve of parents in my parish starting an independent Catholic school — that is not allowed to call itself Catholic — because they want the parents to wait however many years  it takes them to decide to build a school here (it will be at least 5, if ever). I suppose they figured people can just put their children in suspended animation….

    BTW — I fully support that school and concur with the rights of those parents to take that kind of responsibility for their children. Homeschoolers deserve the same regard and respect.

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    NFPdad, you should look into K-12. It is free if it is in your state.

    http://www.k12.com/

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    It seems that most of us are trying to be good committed Catholics.  As such, before, during and after we form opinions on subjects, we consult the wisdom of the Church.  Please read what the Church says about Catholic schools.  All of the documents can be found on the Vatican web-sight.

    What is the Holy Spirit telling us? 

    Let us prayerfully discern what the Church is saying, and then act accordingly.

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    I know what the Holy Spirit is telling me!  Catholic schools are about formation.  They are about conscience formation and intellectual formation.  Children are WET CEMENT.  It is neither the will of Christ nor the mind of the Church for Catholic families to EXPERIMENT with our kids formation by sending them to a nominally Catholic school so that they can minister to that school's needs.  That is absolutely ABSURD! I’m 50 years old.  My wife and I started home schooling from the very beginning 18 years ago (this username is actually my daughters, who is kind enough to be letting me borrow it… since our whole family has been tracking this discussion).  I have studied the Church's many papal teachings on education and I KNOW that if Catholic schools are to work… the following must exist:1.) A local bishop who has ONE and only ONE aim… that every man, woman and child under his authority becomes a saint.  This has always been the mind of the Church.  Such a bishop must not merely demonstrate this in WORDS… he must PROOVE it with HIS OWN LIFE.  Look at some of the greatest saint/bishops in western history and you will see that anything less results in failure. 2.) Holy vocations to teach in the schools.  When Mother Seton created Catholic education it was with the mind of giving up everything (including the chance for her new novices to have a family) to teach the young both the Catholic Faith and the essentials for academic growth. How many of you joining in this discussion would be willing to give up one or more of your children so that they could SERVE THE CHURCH IN THIS WAY? 

    3.) Parents who are willing to make the financial and other sacrifices to support such a school.  In order for parents to feel compelled to make such a sacrifice, they must view their bishop as a holy man who truly represents Christ… not a bureaucrat who can’t decide if the people should kneel, genuflect or stand while receiving communion.  The bishop is not supposed to be a politician who does not even have the guts to deny Holy Communion to a public figure who opposes the unborn’s right to life.  If my bishop can not stand up to the present age and culture THEN WHY WOULD I TRUST MY CHILD’S FORMATION TO HIM?  I would be very guilty of neglect if I were to trust such a man.

     4.) So called “conservative Catholics” must get over this FEAR of correcting their local bishop.  In Church history there have been many instances where the faithful needed to lovingly correct their bishop for heretical teaching.  Because most Catholic parents have been deprived of Church teaching for the last 45 years, they do not understand this.  They mean well, but their silence over heretical teaching in the Catholic schools and at the pulpit only emboldens the Marxist and Freemasonic teaching that currently passes for Catholic education in most diocesan schools today. Parenting and passing on the Faith is not a crap shoot.  Today, more and more Catholic families are seeing the fruits of the past generations of Home Schooled kids who have now gotten married or entered religous life, and are doing exceedingly well demographically.  (practically non existent divorce rate, large families, many priestly and religious vocations, good jobs… etc…). The Catholic school system under the present crop of USCC officials and American bishops is DEAD.  They just don’t realize it yet.  This is an unfortunate thing, because I believe that not everyone can home educate their kids.  Nevertheless, it IS the reality.   

    Without naming names, look at the handful of good bishops (count them on one hand) we have in the American diocese!  Their Catholic schools are actually doing fairly well… and their seminaries are quite full.  Why: Because they are orthodox, not heterodox.  But these men bear the ridicule of their much more plentiful and more "progressive" brother bishops every time the bishops get together.

     

    I really don’t wish to be uncharitable to you all… but you are COMPLETELY MISSING THE POINT if you can not bring yourselves to discuss the bishops, both individually and as a body.  And while you are at it… you need to discuss that very useless body in Washington DC called the USCCB.  They can’t even identify a morally objectionable movie which glorifies adultery & fornication. 

    Please, if we are going to talk about Catholic Schools, let's try and be critically and intellectually honest. Ad Jesum per Mariam.

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    Sir – I doubt if anyone will disagree with you that there has been some major problems at the Bishop level – and there continues to be.  I shudder to think of what will happen on judgment day for many bishops.  Is it our fault for not praying enough? 

    This is why letters of supplication, prayer and fasting for our Bishops have to be a large part of making change.  Longing for my bishop to morph into one of the truly great ones that are starting to dot the landscape doesn't seem to help any. 

    In the meantime, is there other things we can be doing, now, to help rebuild our Catholic schools?  I think there is.  I think Christ wants us to get involved.

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    Scarl,

    Can you really be serious that homeschoolers are not fully Catholic? Do you personally know any?  Maybe your definition of Catholic is different than mine.  I define a good Catholic as someone who does their best to live by the Ten Commandments, the Beatitudes and the Precepts of the Church.  In addition a good Catholic should receive the sacraments regularly and hold to the magesterial teachings of the Church.  ALL, yes I said ALL the homeschoolers I know try to do this.  Can you tell me that every parent who sends their child(ren) to Catholic school does this?   Open your eyes!

    As I mentioned before the term or concept of "Catholic schools" does not appear anywhere in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.  Supporting the Catholic schools is NOT a tenet of our faith. 

    Vatican II documents aside, homeschoolers will not be going to hell because they chose to safeguard the souls of their children.  Believe it or not my highest goal for my child is eternal salvation not making the world a "better" place.  Heretical teaching in the local Catholic schools will not aid me in this goal.  The sinful secular culture permeates in most Catholic schools. (There I lambasted again!)

    O well, even Christ lambasted the money changers!  

    I have still not seen any concrete steps proposed to "fix" the Catholic schools.  Feel free to come to Philadelphia and fix the schools here. 

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    Having just read the documents listed above I make this statement:

    When the Catholic schools closely resemble the schools mentioned in the documents I will consider recommending them to parents.  In the meantime try homeschooling or some other alternative means to give your children a Catholic education.  

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    It is a beautiful vision though…yes?

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    I think you have to separate the concept of a "Catholic education" — which is very beautiful and deals with the entire person — from the concept of a Catholic school.  The reason I say this is that a Catholic education is not dependent upon a Catholic school.

    IF children have to be in school, then certainly a Catholic school (i.e. one where the principles of Catholic education are implemented) is preferable to other options.  But "school" as a concept was not invented by the Church, and the modern intsititution of school systems was not invented by the Church. Once you have large numbers of parents either dependent upon a school system for the educaiton of their children or convinced they are dependent, then for the Church to decide to create a Catholic environment for those children, especially the Catholic ones, is very commendable.

    Some of the convents run nursing homes for the elderly.  They get to go to Mass all the time and live in a very Catholic environment. Is that a beautiful thing? Well I suppose it is once you have large numbers of elderly people being sent off to nursing homes by their families. For the Church to create nursing homes to care for them is very commendable. But it begs the question of whether human beings genearally speakaing thrive better within a family or an institution.

    Why do we take it for granted that children must be institutionalized? Why do we take it for granted that our elderly must be instutionalized?

    A lot of these modern concepts we have derive from two things: 1. the industrial revolution with its need for millions of factory workers and the need to get people out of the home in order to have them participate in mass production of goods, and 2. the breakdown in the traditional multigenerational concept of family.

    Now the first was a good thing all in all that raised the standard of living for the entire population of the world. But it did do violence to family structures. And one thing to note about it is that in economic terms the industrial revolution is over and the structure of the economy in a large part of the developed world is such that most families are not dependent upon factory shift work. Nor are their children being prepared for factory shift work, which BTW is a large part of the reason for the way schools are structured (line up, wait for the bell, 15 minute recess, lunch in a cafeteria, everyone do this now, then everyone stop and do this now).

    School per se as an institution is very challenged in the developed world with the information revolution. Why should the Church — we Catholics! — be looking backwards to an outdated model, just because it is so "beautiful"? Time to move forward.  And time for the forward vision to place the domestic Church at the top of the list of priorities. Top expenditure of diocesan education money should be for marriage preparation. Do that, and in 20 years, you won't have Catholic school problem.

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    I commend those families who homeschool.    For those of you who do not have a good Catholic school as we do, I commend you for homeschooling–you have very blessed lives for that.  Your beautiful faith, beautiful, thriving families are certainly cause for JOY in the whole church.  (I have at times envied (if that is the right word) my friends who homeschool.  Mostly I envy their parental control over their children's environment.  BUt I do indeed marvel at their day to day faith and how it is lived–truly the Grace of God.)

    For those of us who do support Catholic schools–how can we make them Catholic? 

    1)  Prayer, first and foremost, for all involved.  Offer Masses, hours of adoration, rosaries and fasting for all–the bishop, priests, administrators, teachers, students, parents.  Oh, and pray for the public schools and homeschoolers as well too–we want goodness for ALL institutions of learning. 

    2) With and through the prayers, become present in your school environment—active with administrators, secretaries, volunteers, teachers, etc.—and not just those associated with your children's classroom.  Be a PART of the school. 

    3)  Start edcuating the parents so that they will yearn for their children to be solidly catechized–and of course part of that education is to remind them of their duty to be the primary educators of their children.  How can this education take place?  Information about our Faith in the monthly newsletter; mom's bible studies; father's club,  family rosary groups; a prayer group designated to pray/sacrifice for the school on a weekly basis; occasional parent-only masses where the priest can preach on the very topic of educating your children in the faith; family socials that are Catholic–advent wreath making, caroling, a family dance; a mom's group that meets weekly in the summer with the children to visit other churches in the diocese(always followed up by picnic & playground time), visit nursing homes–basically performing spiritual and corporal works of mercy together.

    I think you get my point.  We need to change it from the inside out.  Let's work with the people we have and educate them to WANT their school to be Catholic—and that includes our priests too!  Yes, we need the bishops to help, but if they are not, let's do what we CAN do—work one little sacraifice at a time, offering up everything to our Lord who WILL bring all things to Himself.  And then when our school is Catholic–others will see the fruit and they too will want to come.

    And here is another thing that we need—can I ask the homeschoolers to pray for us?  Pray that we too can have the beauty of our Faith lived in our school environment each and every day. 

    I do believe there is a place for homeschoolers and a place for Catholic schools.  Let us respect each others' choices on this and pray for each other.  Our children will someday be "out in the world" together.  I pray that our children will be Christ and see Christ to yours and yours will see Christ and be Christ to mine.

    Jesus, I Trust in You! 

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    It is a beautiful vision though…yes?

    Our family has indeed experienced it, for a year while sending the kids off to a distant Catholic school. That is of course the second problem with finding a Catholic education for our children outside the home (the first being that the alleged education is no different than in the public schools nor the alleged catholicity either). Distance. The time it took us to drive our kids to school in the morning and repeat in the afternoon was about the same as the time it takes us to finish all or most of a day's work at home. The travel costs, in terms of time and money spent just getting back and forth, got so bad that we rented an apartment near the school to finish out the year. Travel costs proved more expensive than tuition. We even entertained moving, but we love our house and neighborhood and ultimately we decided to stay put. Why, after all, can such a school not be started near to our home?

    It was around this same time that we learned that there is powerful interest within our parish to prevent it from starting a parish school, and this interest does not come from the homeschoolers (most of whom would support an authentically Catholic parish school, I think). I'm not quite certain where it comes from, though I've a hunch that most parents in our suburban parish believe that the public schools do a fine job of educating their children and do not want the cost burden of supporting a parish school. We ultimately decided that homeschooling was the only way we could provide a Catholic education for our children.

    There are other parish schools nearby, and we have friends who have sent their kids to those schools or who currently do. There is even a beautiful school run by the Legion of Christ which is also quite good. But the closest school we have visited twice and could not see much more than a public school with a bit of God sprinkled on top (I know that others disagree with us in this assessment, but compared to our homeschool, it is just a public school with a bit of God sprinkled on top). And the other schools, though "nearby", are still far enough that we could easily spend as much as three hours (perhaps more) each day just getting the kids back and forth. We refuse to impose such burden on them.

    Then, there is cost. If one assumes that my wife would work absent the homeschooling, homeschooling is by far more expensive than the Catholic schools in our diocese (this is measured in terms of the opportunity costs associated with her not working). But why should we sacrifice our Catholic home life in order to afford Catholic schooling for our children? Gravissimum Educationis, in particular, is clear that we should not do so. The entire vision of education presented is firmly grounded in the principle of subsidiarity (see Nos. 3 and 6, or just search the page), meaning that schools, whether Catholic or otherwise, must not supplant the family, or even diminish it in its role as educators of children. As a practical purpose, however, my wife would have to leave the home for eight to ten hours each day in order for us to make use of the Catholic schools. And the kids would be on the losing end of her absence.

    One could always argue that providing the means for Catholic education for one's children constitutes a sufficiently grave motive for postponing additional children (c.f. Humanae Vitae No. 16, and I would support anyone who asserts such an argument and then uses moral means to see it through). Nevertheless Humanae Vitae is also clear that such motives merely make it permissible – and not obligatory – for the postponement of more children. And we've already got a small gaggle. To pay tuition, my wife would have to work – and it's not then merely tuition but also travel costs and daycare before and after school. And if we assume that my wife would not work, all of the employment opportunity costs associated with her teaching at home become zero – and a Catholic school becomes extraordinarily expensive. If we add daycare and travel costs back into the equation (in order to reach one of those schools whose practice closely matches the beautiful vision), then it is prohibitively expensive. Moreover, it beats the kids down.

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    Indeed.  Thank you for this cogent analysis from the real world of unintended consequences where Catholic families are being presented with the option of limiting their family size and mothers are being driven out of the home and into the workplace (where BTW their competition for employer dollars drives the cost of labor down and makes it more difficult for fathers to earn a living wage) in order to support Catholic schools.

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    We know several wonderful Catholic homeschooling families who are simply unwilling to decide to use the years of their children's primary education be the guinea pigs while we try to fix the local Catholic school. Their absence does makes the job more difficult, but then so does some of the faculty not being Catholic; the focus on making every parent activity include a fund-raising aspect; a reluctance to practice Catholic devotions; the insistence on participating in secular activities, field trips, and library events driven by Weekly Reader and Scholastic books; scheduling of Sunday athletic practice and games; alumae who insist on continuing Catholic-lite fluff because it is what they did when they went to school here, and on and on.

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    It IS a beautiful vision Greg… yes… when the ECCLESIAL AUTHORITIES actually SHARE that vision.  It is IMPOSIBLE for the layman to create what is in that vision without a bishop’s cooperation.  I know this because there are influences in most chanceries which are opposed to that vision and only the full determination of a bishop can protect a school from their undue interference (which indeed will come if you rebuild something).  Were that not so, we would not have had to contend with the “Spirit of Vatican II” and all of its many diabolical novelties which we are fighting off even now in the chanceries and schools. 

     Venerable brother, the inescapable FACT in all of this is that the vision will never be realized until the FAMILIES in the West can produce seminaries and bishops that will uphold that vision.  And THIS is where home schooling comes in.  A little demographic research will reveal that most vocations in the orthodox & growing seminaries and convents are coming from home schooling families.

     

    So the best thing one can do for a nominally Catholic school is to home school their children…. essentially DEFUNDING the diocesan approach as a result (not as a primary goal… but as an organic outcome of the home schooling). The vocations that come from home schooling are already filling the need for consecrated life and priestly vocations.  Go to ANY orthodox seminary in this country or in Western Europe which is growing rapidly and see where the vocations are coming from.  They are coming principally from Catholic home schoolers.  From these vocations will come priests & bishops which share the vision outlined in pre and post V II documents on Catholic education. I will add that Catholic Home schooling reorients the parents and makes their home into a little monastery of sorts (Ecclesia domestica).  This of course presupposes the cooperation in grace of both parents and the sacramental power of marriage.  The marriage prospers spiritually as a result of taking your kids conscience formation off of "auto pilot" and into your own hands as the new code of Canon law prescribes.  I can attest to this because I have actually seen in happen in about twenty families which I have personally been involved with in my own geographic area. There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any Church document relating to education (pre or post counciliar) which states that a Catholic is obligated by faith to send their kids to a diocesan school.  The documents, on the contrary, charge the parent with the duty of making sure their children receive a Catholic education.  NOT sending them to diocesan schools (in most of the cases) IS a way of making certain of this.  Naturally public schools are OUT OF THE QUESTION.   I’m not suggesting that you don’t get involved with Catholic diocesan education… I’M JUST ASSERTING THE FACT THAT YOU SHOULD NOT SEND YOUR KIDS THERE. 

    But home schooling requires a Metanoia (from the Greek ????????, metanoia, changing one's mind) of sorts.  It requires you to re prioritize everything.  Dad must get home at a reasonable hour.  If he can’t do that reliably then he must make a change in his employment. The household economy must shrink in order to put mom in her most important role which is nurturer and teacher.  Mom must be focused on making a family life which is immersed in the liturgical year.  We must be “delivered” from the “house beautiful” obsession and focus more intently on Jesus.  Daily Mass and confession every two or three weeks are extremely helpful for both mom & dad and kiddies (followed by some enjoyable memory like ice cream out or a family movie).  The Rosary and Eucharistic devotion are also essential tools.  Home schooling (to be done well) requires a disconnection of most of the media.  EWTN is about the only thing we let into the house because it represents what is good, true & beautiful.

     

    There is much more I can say about this, but space does not permit.  Home schoolers would love to see an authentic renewal of the Catholic schools in the West.  We DO realize that not everybody can do home schooling.  But we know it won’t happen without the real teaching vocations to the religious life which made the Catholic schools of Elizabeth Seton’s vision capable of building and forming saints.  Existing Catholic schools are just another type of public school with crucifixes and a few statues. Real holy nuns and priests & brothers are what MAKE a Catholic school. It takes a few decades to get those vocations back.

     

    You can attempt to fix a system which is fundamentally broken, or you can form your own kids to rebuild the Church… and in time real Catholic schools may spring up.  But if you try to put the cart before the horse (the school before the vocations to run it), you will either fail… or you will have to delude yourself into thinking it is the real thing (which it will not be).

      

    Have a happy Thanksgiving to all and may God bless you all.

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    I wish to say one last thing.  There is a connection between the contraceptive mentality, loss of Catholic education, loss of vocations, false ecumenism, liturgical revolution (i.e. desacrilization), and "Catholic education" which is not Catholic.  The connection is the Freemasonic influence which has infiltrated almost every segment of our society inside and outside of the Church.  I'm still studying this, and so I don;t have much more to say about it… but it filters down to the education problem. There are approximately thirteen papal documents which condemn Freemasonry which is very much alive and active (and philosophically potent) in many communities today.  The names of the philosophies has changed… but Masonic (e.g., Skull & Bones type masonry) is alive and well in our culture and has a powerful effect upon many bishops in the larger diocese. THAT is a subject for another time. 

     

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    In Him, all things are possible. 

    Why would He give us such a beautiful vision without the grace to accomplish it? 

    We need to keep our hand to the plow! 

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    Let us pray that we all continue to form our kids in the faith.   

    But if, and I know it is a big if, but IF we can in some way help our local Catholic school to become everything Christ wants them to be, we will be helping our entire Catholic commuity.  

    Every child deserves an education with this vision.

    It's worth the fight. 

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    Greg, could we get you to take you head out of the clouds long enough to actualy respond to some of the things said here. Just repeating over and over that it is a beautiful vision really gets us nowhere.

    You have not responded to my argument that beautiful or not it is outdated. You have not responded to the contention made by several people that only restoration of the teaching orders can restore the schools. You have not responded to the practical and economic considerations raised by a number of people and detailed by NFPdad.

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    Greg,

    I contend that the vision on Catholic education, specifically diocesan Catholic schools, is a very narrow vision of the Kingdom of God.  God can bring salvation to anyone no matter where they are schooled.

    I believe God has already given us the graces needed to educate children in schools or at home.  However, there are too many in charge of schools who are not accepting the graces He means for us.  Their lack of cooperation in the saving power of God is wreaking havoc on the souls of the children in their care.

    As homeschoolers we pray as if everything depended on God and work as if everything depended on us. 

    Please answer this.  Would you put your impressionable 8 year old daughter in the "Catholic" school where some of the the faculty and staff continue teaching heresy even though you've tried to get them to stop?  Where sex ed is taught in the class and discussed in the school yard thus negating your "opt out" choice?  Where some or most of her classmates' hero is Britany Spears, their conversations revolve around the latest smutty sitcom and the only time they go to mass or confession is when the school takes them?  I really would like to know.

          

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    Honestly, to answer all of your questions takes more than this forum.  Suffice it to say that I used to think the same way as you.  But if the only perspective you have of Catholic schools is what probably exists in your neighborhood, I'll never convince you of anything.  At least you are realizing that what exists is an aberration – Catholic schools as they now exist are NOT what they are supposed to be.

    BUT – I completely disagree with the ridiculous assertion that "therefore they got to go".  I disagree because the Church disagrees with it.  READ THE ARTICE folks! 

    What does the CHurch say about Catholic schools.  YOu will note that the quotes are not about "CAtholic Education".  The quotes are about Catholic Schools.  Whether you like it or not, schools exist!  ANd whether you like it or not, the Church wants CAtholic schools.

    Sorry folks – it's not my Church or yours.  The quotes were not my words.  THe words of the Church are clear.  I'm convinced that most folks in the CAtholic Exchange family pride themselves on being "true Catholics".  I'm also convinced that most of you probably didn't know how strongly the Church values CAtholic schools. 

    You no longer have an excuse.  I'm hearing a lot of 'hurt consciences" – and if that is the case, my article has been successful. 

    Maybe the good people at Catholic Exchange will give me another opportunity to answer the very good questions that have been raised.  I'll remind you that I DID put my children in Catholic schools.  I DID experience everything that has been stated in this forum and then some.  BUT…I didn't run.  I stayed.  I joined up.  I fought and continue to fight. 

    Most of the people I have met in Catholic schools are NOT bad people.  They are "like sheep without a shepherd".  They want to do it right.  THey are as drawn to the truth as the rest of us.  BUT…the spiritual battle is huge. 

    THe ship will take time to turn around, but it can be done.  And…believe it or not, our NCCB is actually starting to help out.  The future is bright.

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    A quick comment about funding…the Wichita program in which the entire parish supports the schools is the best answer.  No tuition – schools available for everybody.  It is not just my obligation to give my child a Catholic Education – it is the obligation of the entire parish. 

    It is interesting to ask the following question:  Did lack of parish support cause the inherent prejuduice of tuition based schools, or is the perception that Catholic schools are just "schools for the elite" (tuition based) the cause parish support to diminish?

    I'm betting we have a viscuous cycle.

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    Greg, it is nonesense to say that our consciences are hurt and taking that kind of rhetorical turn does nothing for your argument but make it look weak.

    In my case for example, there is not even a diocesan school in my community. And even if there was, I would choose to homeschool my grandkids unless the cost were very low and even then I might still choose to homeschool.

    The family is prior to the school and the school exists for the family, not the other way around.  This has also been demonstrated from Church documents.

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    Oh, to answer your qustion.  It was the destruction of the teaching orders that made the schools so expensive. It isn't just a "perception" that tuition based schools are "for the elite"; it is a fact of life that most families can't afford them.

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    There seems a necessity to examine some simple facts. Let's begin with an example. Given a concrete, observable reality, that reality remains both concrete and observable whether I choose to take note of it or not. If there is a piece of white cloth on the table, I only have two options with respect to simple observation of the white cloth: I can accept that it is white and cloth and proceed from there based on this assessment of objective reality, or I can deny either the whiteness or the clothness. If the former, I might learn something: perhaps the cloth is linen or cotton or rayon. Perhaps I can make use of it somehow. Perhaps something else.

    If however, I elect the latter, then I can only sully the cloth to justify my silliness or else move into a fantasy world and invent a system of fantastic reality to correspond with my inability to address concrete, objective reality. Both choices (the sullying and the fantastic denial) are delusional. Neither allows for freedom. Both instead enslave me to the lies I have offered myself: aha, I've dumped soot on the cloth. It's no longer white! Or else, gee it's really paper. If I get a permanent marker and press really hard, I can even make some semblance of a letter 'A', even if it is way too large and rough around the edges.

    I make these observations to arrive at a point. Homeschooling is like that white cloth. The collection of families drawn together in community (like, say a T.O.R.C.H. community) are not merely playing at Catholic education. They are an unincorporated Catholic school, in full conformity with all of the documents, though they often lack both parish and diocesan support. This withdrawal of parish and diocesan support, even if done under the auspices of supporting officially recognized schools, is identical to sullying the white cloth, at least inasmuch as the Catholic school known as homeschooling is concerned. Its objective reality does not change, even if priests and bishops and laity refuse to publicly acknowledge it.

    We know this because Gravissimum Educationis firmly cements the concept of the Catholic school in the larger concept of subsidiarity (read the documents), which means in this context that no institution, not even a formally recognized Catholic school, has any right to supplant or otherwise replace anything within the family that the family can accomplish on its own. This includes the fully constituted (though unincorporated) Catholic school that many families have put in place with or without official ecclesiastical support.

    To put it succinctly, there is no Catholic school unless it is fully subordinate to the family and fully conformed to the teaching of the Church. And given the primary principle of subsidiarity, together with the primacy exercised properly by parents in the education of their own children, no officially recognized Catholic school has the right to impose itself on the family if that family can provide a Catholic school for its children within the home.

    Without subsidiarity, the whole edifice – and indeed the force of the arguments offered in the Church documents cited here – comes crashing down.

    In other words, Homeschools are Catholic schools. Period.

  81. Guest Avatar
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    Greg,

    You mean to tell me you need time to qualify why you WOULD put your daughter into such a situation or why you would NOT.    A simple answer is all that is needed. I just want your gut reaction as to what you would do if this was your only choice for your daughter.

    Please a simple answer. 

  82. Guest Avatar
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    This discussion will likely move us to provide increased financial support to institutionalized Catholic schools. It will not motivate us to send our children outside the home for their education.

    Greg, we haven't abandoned the Catholic schools. We have instead implemented a Catholic school in our home, in full accord with the principles of marriage, procreation, education, and subsidiarity which give force to the teaching documents described here.

  83. Guest Avatar
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    Mary, understand the purpose of the article – it was to bring to the forefront what the Church says about Catholic schools.  I think the Church is pretty clear.  I'm going to act accordingly.

    Your comments about schools is an interesting one.  In a sense its like saying movies are bad, so lets never go.  I'm more impressed with those that trying to make good movies.  Movies aren't going away anytime soon.  Neither are schools.  Let's make better schools.  Catholic schools pre-date secular schools in many ways.

    Again, I think the Church is clear about its value of Catholic schools.  Note the words below from the Code of Canon Law… 

     

    Code of Canon Law

    Can. 796 §1. Among the means to foster education, the Christian faithful are to hold schools in esteem; schools are the principal assistance to parents in fulfilling the function of education.

    Can. 798 Parents are to entrust their children to those schools which provide a Catholic education. If they are unable to do this, they are obliged to take care that suitable Catholic education is provided for their children outside the schools.

    Can. 799 The Christian faithful are to strive so that in civil society the laws which regulate the formation of youth also provide for their religious and moral education in the schools themselves, according to the conscience of the parents.

    Can. 802 §1. If schools which offer an education imbued with a Christian spirit are not available, it is for the diocesan bishop to take care that they are established.§2. The Christian faithful are to foster Catholic schools, assisting in their establishment and maintenance according to their means.

  84. Guest Avatar
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    For the umpteenth time…I have no problem with homeschooling.  This is not an either/or…it's a both/and.

  85. Guest Avatar
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    gburns…I'm sorry, I thought I answered.  I did put my son, daughter, son and son in a Catholic school.  The Catholic school was not ideal to say the least, but there was definitely some goodness, wholesomeness that attracted me.  PRoblems?  Yes, but goodness too.  I befriended many of the teachers and got involved.  Eventually, I quit my teaching job at a Community College and started teaching full-time at the Catholic High School…which is a story unto itself.

    I am not advocating NOT homeschooling.  I am not advocating "giving your child to a CAtholic school to raise and bequeating all parenting rights to them".  Let your child attend and get involved.  Remain a great parent.  Befriend the teachers and administrators.  They are not evil.  They are probably trying really hard to do what is right.

  86. Guest Avatar
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    Shall we begin a canonical action, then, to determine what the definition of "school" is? And then, who might the competent judges be? Does the definition of school fall into the realm of providential obligation? The concept of education certainly does. But school seems rather prudential by comparison.

    And would the bishop be properly exercising his office if he imposed an obligation that violates the primacy of parents in educating their children? Or if he undermined the principle of subsidiarity?

    Canon law is written as a derivative work drawn from the precepts of the Church and not the other way around. The primacy of parents in educating children and the principle of subsidiarity centered on the family are the precepts that give these sections of Canon law their meaning and their force.

  87. Guest Avatar
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    Mary, understand the purpose of the article – it was to bring to the forefront what the Church says about Catholic schools.  I think the Church is pretty clear.  I'm going to act accordingly.

    You've done a good job of this. I for one am thankful.

    (As an aside, I was once playing basketball and got into an argument with a friend about the score. We stopped the argument, briefly, to see if we agreed about the score. We did agree. And we then continued the argument. I know I am in the minority in preferring this form of discourse in this day and age, and please do not misunderstand my questions as accusation. I merely enjoy discussing issues of substance, and such issues deserve to be questioned, even if we already seem to agree and especially if we don't).

  88. Guest Avatar
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    Also…I agree that the demise of the teaching orders had an impact on the funding of Catholic schools, but not the same way you might.  There is NOT a lack of money in society.  I don't believe "we as a Church can't afford Catholic schools".  I did a survey a couple years ago, if our parishioners gave 5% of the mean income of this area, Catholic schools would be free.  It's a matter of faith and obedience.

    Where the demise of the teaching orders does have a huge impact is that it is much easier to want to give to an institution that is run by people that have given their lives in a radical way to follow Christ…like Priests and Sisters, as opposed to giving money to a lay-run school.  There is no doubt that a return of the teaching orders would be most helpful.

    Until then…what?  Quit?  Nope!

  89. Guest Avatar
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    I stated the Code of Canon Law just to re-iterate that the Church clearly values CAtholic Schools.  In case somebody thought I was misquoting the Church documents somehow…

    ANy CAtholic school that does not give primacy of education to parents is not a Catholic school.  Period.  Catholic schools that emulate our secular counterparts that try to usurp parental rights are gravely mistaken.

  90. Guest Avatar
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    Who knows maybe it will be the homeschooled religious who save the Catholic schools.

    I'd be willing to bet that some of those homeschooled religious will bring their parents into their respective third orders. Those parents will bring decades of experience as educators. Such a combination will rock the Church (and therefore the world).

    But I also think there will be Catholic-schooled religious doing the same thing. The shame is that not enough of the Catholic schools build education on the real primacy of the Beatific Vision. (I for one think that homeschools are so successful at academics precisely because we subordinate academics to religion. The former provides a wellspring for the latter). And not enough of us provide support for the often struggling, authentically Catholic schools that do exist (even if they are few and even if they too are not formally recognized by a parish or diocese).

    We shall change in this latter regard. So thanks again Greg. 

  91. Guest Avatar
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    NfpDad…You seem to enjoy a good meaty argument (discussion) as much as I do.  I'd love to sit and have coffee somtime…somewhere.  I have very much enjoyed this interaction!

  92. Guest Avatar
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    In case somebody thought I was misquoting the Church documents somehow…

    I sincerely believe that around here, we are merely thrilled to have a substantive discussion. It reminds me of the Phaedo: there is Socrates on the brink of death. Half his friends want to spring him from prison. The other half do not. But neither group wants to see him die, and both groups have as the basis for their actions the same reason: love of their friend. Socrates, though, trumps them both, accepting death because Truth is more important (and not because he is more important).

  93. Guest Avatar
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    But any Catholic school is only as good as its bishop.  I repeat, if the bishop will always side with his “hired hand” over the parent… then the school is worth nothing.

     You have chosen not to answer many of the points made here and that is troubling.  I agree with many of the respondents here who assert that Home Schooling IS a Catholic school (though most bishops would disagree… which only validates what I just said in the previous paragraph). To answer your question Greg "i.e. …what do we do in the mean time, while waiting for teaching orders?”: Ans: We WAIT and WORK to build teaching orders.  We DON:T put the cart before the horse! UNTIL BISHOPS RECOGNIZE PARENTS AS THE PRIMARY EDUCATORS… PUTTING ONES MONEY OR TIME INTO A SCHOOL WHERE THE PARENTS ARE NOT THE PRIMARY EDUCATORS (read “decision makers”) IS A TERRIFFIC WASTE OF TIME AND RESOURCES WHICH COULD BE USED TO BUILD THE TEACHING ORDERS OF THE NEXT GENERATION… SO THAT CATHOLIC SCHOOLS CAN ONCE AGAIN EXIST. 

    You are using emotional language and soft fuzzy logic in an effort to MOTIVATE (your own word here) people to support local Catholic schools.  This tells me that you are more interested in MOTIVATING than you are in GETTING DOWN TO THE TRUTH of the documents.  The TRUTH of the documents can be found in them, if you read them in light of the pre counciliar documents (counciliar AND papal).

     

    All of Vatican II’s documents should be read in context with documents from previous Church councils and popes (some of which have much more dogmatic force than V II which was only a pastoral council).  The council fathers intended this ecumenical council to be read in the context of the previous councils.  I’m always amazed at how folks can read a smattering of post counciliar documents on a subject, invoke the name of the Third Person of the Most Holy Trinity, and proclaim that they are now “enlightened with the Truth”, only to have skipped over the last 2000 years of magisterial writing and sensus fide (sense of the faithful)!

     

    Are you aware that Catholic Home Education predates the founding of this country?  Are you aware that the reason both the old and new code of cannon law uphold parents as primary educators is due to the sensus fide?  Do you honestly think that most of the apostles went to some form of institutionalized school? Do you think Mary sent Jesus to an institutional local school?  How absurd!

     

    It has ALWAYS been the mind of the Church (and is reflected in post & pre counciliar documents) that parents may serve the Church well by opting to give their Children a private education.  It has always been the mind of the Church according to even the most ancient of Church documents to SUPPORT THOSE WHO TEACH THE FAITH AND NOT SUPPORT THOSE SCHOOLS WHICH FAIL TO TEACH THE FAITH. 

     And so in the end we are motivated to home educate our kids, fund orthodox (not heterodox) teaching orders, and cut the local diocesan schools loose. 

    I would love to read an article from you after you have read ALL the magisterial documents on Catholic education.  It would really only take two or three weeks to do.  I believe you will have a much better grounding in sensus fide on the matter.  It would also be of value for you to examine what local layman did with heretical bishops in their area 1000 years ago.  They took a much more severe approach than “writing a letter”, I can assure you!  I’m not advocating that… I’m just saying that it is time for so called “conservative Catholics” to get over the fear of defunding their local diocesan school in favor of more Catholic approaches. 

     

    My experience is this:  If the school is an any way controlled by the local chancery and the bishop, unless it happens to be one of the only five good bishops in the country, DON’T SEND THEM A SINGLE DOLLAR!

  94. Guest Avatar
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    But any Catholic school is only as good as its bishop.

    This is not an incorrect statement on its surface, but there is a flaw deeper down. That flaw is that bishops do not exercise primacy over the education of children. Parents do. The bishop exercises a lot of authority over schools and schooling within his diocese (and properly so, if properly exercised), but his authority as primate of the diocese meets its end when it comes into contact with the authority exercised by parents as primates of the education of their children. Parents need and deserve the support of the diocesan bishop in their primacy, but they can (and in many cases do) succeed on the strength of the graces granted through their own primacy, even when they exercise this primacy through a Catholic school rather than through a homeschool.

    Qualify your statement rather by recognizing the truth of one St. Augustine's addresses to fathers of families in which he began, "My fellow bishops…" As far as the education of children is concerned, the bishops are these fathers, and they can succeed even when the diocesan bishop is against them or indifferent to them. It is difficult, but it is not impossible. 

  95. Guest Avatar
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    First of all I did not say anything like, "movies are bad so let's not go."  The paragraph that begins your excerpt from canon law says that schools are "among the means" to foster education, not that they are the sole means. I never said that I was against Catholic school, only that it is not the choice for our family at this time and that nothing in the Church's teaching obligates me to send my child or grandchild to school. I am obligated to provide an education for them, however. So I will now attend to that and leave this very interesting discussion that your article has provoked. Thank you very much, Greg.

  96. Guest Avatar
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    Supporting Catholic schools can take many forms:

    1.  Send your children to them.

    2.  Support them financially.

    3.  Pray for them.

    4.  Tutor kids in need.

    5.  Help at fund-raisers.

    6.  Volunteer at them.

    7.  Join a board.

    8.  Stop thrashing them as if there is no hope.

    If you ask me, one of the most perfect "Catholic schools" is a good Catholic homeschool (are you hearing me here!) 

    BUT – homeschooling your child does not release you from your responsibility of supporting Catholic schools.  It is part of our obligation as good Catholics.  If your local Catholic schools is struggling, find a way to help!

  97. Guest Avatar
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    Greg!  I HEAR you.  I respect your frankness… and I understand what you are saying.  I just believe that what you  are saying is wrong.  We can agree to disagree. I'm not TRASHING them.  I'm WRITING THEM OFF.  I'm simply saying that based upon my 50 years of life experience and 20 years in education, they (diocesan schools) are not reconstitutable as long as the local chancery has control of them The best way to help diocesan schools is to defund them and build our own. Don't call them “Catholic” and hire a good cannon lawyer to make sure they can never be taken over by the local bishop. 

  98. Guest Avatar
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    I am tutoring kids in need.  And by so doing I am making sure that they are no drain on the resources of the strapped Catholic schools. I am even doing this for free. I am not even asking the bishop to pay for me for teaching these kids.  I should be getting a medal for my support of the Catholic schools!

  99. Guest Avatar
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    I think most of us call that parenting.  I do that too, every night for about 2 hours. 

    I'll gladly send you a miraculous medal :).

  100. Guest Avatar
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    Greg,

    That last comment struck me as uncalled for.  Mary has already said she is homeschooling not her children, but her grandchildren. And the tutoring of the kids from the Catholic school in need is above and beyond that.

    Charitably dealing with others is difficult, especially in a forum, but we ought to better than.

    Or was that an attempt at humor? If so, I missed it.

  101. Guest Avatar
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    My apologies to all.  It was meant to be humorous…

    The following is a quote from familiaris Consortio that I think summarizes much of our discussion:

    40. The family is the primary but not the only and exclusive educating community. Man's community aspect itself — both civil and ecclesial — demands and leads to a broader and more articulated activity resulting from well-ordered collaboration between the various agents of education. All these agents are necessary, even though each can and should play its part in accordance with the special competence and contribution proper to itself. The educational role of the Christian family therefore has a very important place in organic pastoral work. This involves a new form of cooperation between parents and Christian communities, and between the various educational groups and pastors. In this sense, the renewal of the Catholic school must give special attention both to the parents of the pupils and to the formation of a perfect educating community. The right of parents to choose an education in conformity with their religious faith must be absolutely guaranteed. The State and the Church have the obligation to give families all possible aid to enable them to perform their educational role properly. Therefore both the Church and the State must create and foster the institutions and activities that families justly demand, and the aid must be in proportion to the families' needs. However, those in society who are in charge of schools must never forget that the parents have been appointed by God himself as the first and principal educators of their children and that their right is completely in- alienable. But corresponding to their right, parents have a serious duty to commit themselves totally to a cordial and active relationship with the teachers and the school authorities. If ideologies opposed to the Christian faith are taught in the schools, the family must join with other families, if possible through family associations, and with all its strength and with wisdom help the young not to depart from the faith. In this case the family needs special assistance from pastors of souls, who must never forget that parents have the inviolable right to entrust their children to the ecclesial community.

  102. Guest Avatar
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    I already have a miraculous medal — among others — and I understood what you were driving at and that you were being humorous.

    If we want to really get technical regarding canon law and Church documents, we could say that homeschooling — while it precinds from Catholic teaching — has yet to be explicity addressed by the Church.

    FC above presents a great ideal, but the Church cannot even guarantee that her own schools fulfill that ideal, not even mentioning the state.  I'll be very interested in knowing what aid that the Church is ready to offer to homeschooling families, or seeing the bishops demand that homeschooling families be assisted by the state in carrying out their obligations — like through tax relief for instance.  (Excuse me if I don't hold my breath.)

  103. Guest Avatar
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    It was my negative experience with Catholic schools and colleges that led me to create Ivory Tower Heretics blog.

  104. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    I'm not sure the term "home-schooling" is necessary. 

    It's parenting – usually very good parenting.  And choosing to utilize educational institutions later in the child's developement as opposed to earlier.  FC does a nice job in talking about parenting and utilizing other "educational agents" while giving primacy to parents.  Couple this with subsidiarity and I think this is what you call "homeschooling".

  105. Guest Avatar
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    No, actually "homeschooling" is a necessary term as long as the state mandates (and it has a right to do so) compulsory schooling for children.  It does go beyond what most people think of as parenting. If you were to call it merely parenting, then those who sent their children away from home to be schooled could be said to be outsourcing parenting. But I don't think you want to say that (even if someone else would — and I didn't, so don't accuse me.)

  106. Guest Avatar
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    Huh.  Interesting. 

    I was shocked to find out that "homeschooling" is actually illegal in some European countries.  Did you read about the Mom (or was it a Dad) that was arrested in Germany – the rest of the family I believe had fled the country.  It was about a year ago I think.

    There aren't any states that outlaw it are there?

  107. Guest Avatar
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    Homeschooling used to be broadly interpreted as illegal in Texas as recently as the 1980s. The Texas Homeschool Coalition publishes a unit study for imagining what things were like for "homeschooling pioneers" just around 25 years ago. See http://www.thsc.org/Getting_Started/HomeschoolingHistory.asp. The Leeper vs. Arlington case (PDF) is also worth a read. If homeschoolers are defensive, it is because we have had to be.

    —– 

    My oldest boys are both a year ahead of their peers, mostly because we continue to homeschool through the hot Houston summers, albeit with a lighter daily load. If we did place them in a Catholic school (and the eldest is in 6th grade, so a high school placement is a looming question), I'm wondering:

    a) Would the schools – Catholic, public or otherwise – take their grade levels seriously? The eldest will begin high school Algebra, for example, in the 7th grade. I did the same thing in public school, but he'll be a year younger than I was at the time.

    -and-

    b) Would it be a good idea to sit him in classrooms not just with grade-level peers a year (maybe two years by then) older than he is and with course-level peers who might be as much as five years older?

    c) How might a Catholic school address this particular situation? 

    At home it is a simple matter of not holding him back in his studies even as we allow him to mature in accord with nature. In school, I would be concerned.

    Why do Catholic schools still track students by grade level anyway? I don't mean this in a pejorative way. It's just odd to me, especially at the high school level, where grade is nebulous (even in public school) since kids go from class to class, often with wildly different "grade-level" peers.

  108. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Why do Catholic schools still track students by grade level anyway?

    I know homeschoolers do the same thing (at least do), if for no other reason than to quantify the measure of progress. But is this all? 

  109. Guest Avatar
    Guest

    Homeschoolers track by grade level for appropriatness of material, to measure in accord with national or state norms as required in many cases, to mesh chidlren into school when necessary and perhaps for other reasons. However, homeschoolers are much more flexible in allowing children to move at their own pace. I wil be bumping a 2nd grader into 3rd grade math in January — he will be done with 2nd grade math by then. This same child is doing 4th grade analogies with his sister although most of his academic work is 2nd grade. We are doing one of the K12 virtual academies and they are very flexible.

    I bumped my granddaughter up a year in math when I homeschooled her so that when she went into the private Catholic school they let her work out of the 7th grade math text, instead of the one she had already done. Nevertheless, I see that being in school wastes a good part of her day — about 30 percent of her school day is spent in crowd control, even in a little school with only a dozen kids in each room.

    Time wasting is my number one beef wth school of any kind. Wasting of the child's time and the family's time.

  110. Guest Avatar
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    While I have your attention, let me please pass on this prayer request due to a tragic situationin my parish. I have just posted this to the front page of our site as well.

     Please pray for Bob Foran. This father of a homeschooling family was critically injured in a vehicle mishap on Sunday. He has suffered multiple injuries and broken bones in the upper part of his body including a crushed lung. He also has a traumatic head injury with some bleeding on the brain. Doctors have induced a coma to allow the brain to heal. Please beg the Lord for his complete recovery. This man is a real pillar in his parish and community — Knight of Columbus, firefighter and a great dad. Please God, restore him to us and to his wife and children.

  111. Guest Avatar
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    Greg,

    I see nothing in your list, other than prayer, which will aid in eradicating heresy in the textbooks or the teachers.  Nor anything to combat the corrosive onslaught of the secular culture among the students.  I can't do the first until these are eliminated.  I won't support them financially either.  Joining the board ( if one exists) would be almost useless if you are the only one to see the errors that exist.

    I want you to know that I never thrash the Catholic schools when someone is asking me about homeschooling.  I simply point out the benefits of homeschooling because the parent who is asking is doing so for varying reasons that already exist and are unacceptable to them. Usually the damage has been done.

    I know you have heard enough war stories in your time but these experiences  keep repeating even today.

    Our Archbishop has started to recognize homeschoolers and is having a second annual mass for homeschoolers in the Archdiocese in January.  Since the Church does not seem to have spoken specifically about homeschooling we must take our cues from the Archbishop and various priests who support what we do. It's amazing how the vocations directors of the seminary and religious orders welcome us with open arms.    

    I appreciate your recognizing the validity of homeschooling. And of course as I stated previously we do try to impact the Catholic schools in positive ways.

    I know that homeschooling is best for my family but Catholic schools may be best for you.  Parents who are deciding must prayerfully discern the plan that God has for them. 

    Thank you for this most interesting discussion.

    God bless you.   

        

  112. Guest Avatar
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    Mary,

    We will pray for the recovery of Bob Foran.  May the Blessed Mother wrap her protective mantle about him and his family.  And may God bless them all.

    Grace Burns

  113. AlwaysHappy Avatar
    AlwaysHappy

    I fully support Catholic schools that are truly Catholic and not just in name only. We have far to many so-called Catholic schools where the practice of the Catholic faith is sorely missing. The schools are not producing vocations, better Catholic families, more faithful attendance at Mass, etc. In all too many cases, parents are paying for a ‘private’ education for reasons of academics, safety, etc.  I find this hard to justify calling it a Catholic school.

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