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Trying to Fly with One Wing, Part 10: Using the Wrong Reasons

Is it better to be a lukewarm Catholic or an on-fire Protestant? Is it better to casually saunter up and take the Eucharist while mentally pre-occupied with the point-spread of the afternoon football game, or to once every three months take Protestant communion by sipping diluted grape juice from a tiny plastic cup while in tears over Christ's blood shed for your sins?

That was the question Jack and I mused as we chewed our Egg McMuffins after an early morning Mass. We each attend different parishes, but neither has an early morning mass, so we find ourselves at a third parish — Our Lady of Good Counsel (OLGC) in Plymouth, Michigan. Jack is the father of three teens who want their dad to let them attend the large and popular Evangelical fellowship. The youth group at their Catholic parish is small and mostly inactive. On the other hand, the Evangelical fellowship has multiple Bible studies, prayer groups, and socials for the youth. Could there be a good reason to let his baptized Catholic kids attend such a non-Catholic fellowship? What would be the right reason for saying "no"? And is there a wrong reason for saying "no"?

Using the Wrong Reasons

This series of articles is about the role of reason in the discovery of truth in Roman Catholicism. We arrive at truth through the application of faith and reason, which are like "two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth." (John Paul II, Fides Et Ratio). Truth does not come to us solely through faith, nor does it come by reason alone. To rely on one to the exclusion of the other is to fly with one wing, mostly in circles, as we misapply the ordered rules of one or the other and introduce fallacies into our thinking.

This article briefly examines one of those fallacies called Using the Wrong Reasons, which falls under the category of irrelevant objective appeals. Using the Wrong Reason occurs when evidence is presented that may sound right but does not support the claim.

When my wife asks me euphemistically "Stan, why is the grass so long?", my favorite response is usually "Because it rained a lot last week." I know she's asking why I haven't cut the grass yet, but, being a smart-aleck, my reason has nothing to do with why the grass was not cut. I am "using the wrong reason."

 The idea that a person has to experience something to be a good teacher of it is a frequent example of Using the Wrong Reason. Talented actors, opera stars, and artists all have teachers who themselves cannot act, sing or draw at a professional level. Bela Karolyi, the Romanian born Olympic gymnastic coach of the Russian and later the U.S. teams, comes to mind. Although his teaching methods met with some controversy, to claim that the large, heavy set Romanian cannot instruct because he never performed the delicate, quick moves that those petite, razor thin teenage girls executed to win dozens of Olympic metals is using the wrong reason. In reviewing this article, Dave Armstrong wrote: "If experience was necessary for expertise, I'd like to meet the expert in ancient history!"

In terms of Catholicism, a Protestant friend once challenged me that priests should be married so they would make good marriage counselors. While Protestant pastors often act as marriage counselors, I explained that a priest is trained in theology to bring the Sacraments and true teaching of God's Word to the people. There are professionally trained clinical psychologists and marriage counselors to whom priests and pastors should be referring married couples. My friend was using the wrong reason to object to priestly celibacy. To drive the point home, I asked him if he thought Jesus would be a good marriage counselor?

"Of course, he would be," my friend chuckled.

I reminded him that Jesus was never married.

He thought about that for a moment and offered this rebuttal, "Yeah, but Jesus could read minds."

"Are you saying that to be a good marriage counselor you have to read minds?" I asked.

"It would help," he laughed.

I pushed. "So, a man, to be a good marriage counselor has to read a woman's mind — and being married would allow him to do that?"

My friend grimaced. He had been married twice, and he still had no clue how his wife's mind worked. If marriage is a requirement in order to be a good marriage counselor, then using the wrong reason is to blame.

Closer to Jack's problem, another friend, Judy, through a series of very unfortunate events, suddenly found herself without a husband. She's been in deep need of ongoing spiritual support and encouragement. At her Catholic parish, there is but one women's small group — "a faith sharing group." But its leaders make it clear (in writing) that the group "is not a personal support group." I talked with the group's leader and she made it clear that people like Judy were not welcome. I was uninvited as well because the group also claims (in writing) that its meeting are "not a time to discuss intellectual or theological insights." (Well, okay, there was another reason — I'm not a woman.)

Yet, at a different, yet large and active Evangelical church near Judy, a group of women in one of 20 different small Bible study and prayer groups, (that's 20 as in T.W.E.N.T.Y) reached out to her and asked her to come be with them on Tuesday mornings. They had heard of her situation and wanted to pray with her, and give her encouragement because of her personal problems. Should Judy, a Catholic, join the group, or reject their offer of support, prayer, and Bible study? Is the fact that they're not Catholic the right reason or the wrong reason for rejecting their offer?

The Church's Mission

To help Jack, Judy, and myself make the right decisions using the right reasons, it might be helpful to look into the heart and mind of the Church. In the Catechism we are reminded that the Church's mission is:

To preach the Gospel to all men: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." (CCC 849) Indeed, God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (CCC 851).

That is to say, we are called to live holy lives here on earth — to begin to be saints here and now. That happens in a special way when we partake of the sacraments with the right disposition of heart. Without faith, or in a state of grave sinfulness, however, participating in the sacraments bring us condemnation. (1 Cor 11:27-32; CCC 1385)

The Catechism also reminds us that while all salvation comes from "Christ the Head through the [Catholic] Church which is his Body" (CCC 846) — and while all Christian division is the result of sin — still there are people outside the Catholic Church…

…who have been justified by faith in Baptism [and] are incorporated into Christ; they have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church. (CCC 817-818, italics mine)

In other words, the Catholic Church's mission can be partly fulfilled through Protestant and Evangelical fellowships, especially if they are faithful to the call of Christ to spread the Gospel and serve others through acts of charity and sacrifice.

Big Concern

Now, look at a big concern of our Bishops in discussing the present condition of catechesis in the United States. This is from their statement Our Hearts Were Burning Within Us (1999, 35):

Many Catholics seem "lukewarm" in faith (cf. Rev 3:14ff.) or have a limited understanding of what the Church believes, teaches, and lives. Others may know about the gospel message but have not personally experienced the risen Christ. Still others are indifferent to the Church's guidance or see the Church's teaching in a negative light.

The descriptors here are telling: "lukewarm," "limited," "not personally experienced…Christ," "indifferent," "negative." But the condemnation comes cloaked in the Bible reference the bishops include. Not always comfortable with the confrontation that hard truth creates, the Bishops hope you'll discover what Christ says in the following ("ff") verses. Here's what it says:

I know your works; I know that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either cold or hot. So, because you are lukewarm, neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth (Rev 3:15-16).

Now, just exactly what does that mean? At the very least, it means that if Christians (including baptized Catholics) are lukewarm and indifferent about their faith, they're in for some serious rebuke from the Lord. This is not a blessing.

If the Jacks and the Judys of Catholicism are looking for reasons to avoid particularly vibrant Evangelical Protestant fellowships…the wrong reason is that "Evangelical is not Catholic." At the same time, avoiding Mass because it is boring is also using the wrong reason; just as is going to Mass simply because you always have.

Using the Right Reason

The parish you attend should vibrantly proclaim the Gospel; shepherd your family to passionately love God with all of your heart, mind, soul, and body; and model for you how to lovingly care for your neighbors as yourself (Mt 22:36-40). When a Catholic parish, a priest, or a bishop seems to forget how to lead the flock to this end, or if they are unable to imbue in their flock an evangelical passion for the faith — then it is time to find another parish. If you can't find another Catholic parish that spiritually edifies and strengthens your family, then by all means plug into a Christian fellowship that will — even if it is not Catholic (although, even as I write that I whisper a prayer — "God forbid!"). The right reason for anything is because it will draw us closer to Christ, and in that way serve the mission of the Catholic Church. At the same time, never give up the Eucharist, regular Reconciliation, Baptism and the other Sacraments that offer you the tangible graces of salvation, thus connecting you with the fullness of the Church founded by Christ.

What Should Jack Do?

1. Never stop attending Mass or availing your family of all the Church's Sacraments, traditions, teachings, personal study, and private devotion.

2. Pray and work for the spiritual revival of your bishop, priest, and parish so that the members of your parish are "on fire" for the things of God. Daily adoration is a great help toward this end.

3. If it's just not happening at your parish, find another Catholic parish where it is, or where you can supplement your family's edification. As an Evangelical, I drove my family 30 minutes one way to attend a Christian "church" that challenged us. Today, I know one Catholic family that drives more than an hour to keep their 10 children involved in one of the oldest and most orthodox Catholic parishes in Detroit.

4. To supplement your spiritual life, if a vibrant Catholic Bible study and/or small group are not available, attend an Evangelical Bible Study or prayer group where there is a palatable passion for the faith and the Bible.

5. As you fellowship with Protestants, prepare yourself to humbly and accurately defend the teachings of the Catholic Church. Take on the mantle of the Church's mission and "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel" — even in your Evangelical Bible Study and prayer group. But do so only when asked, or when clearly anti-Catholic issues are raised. Don't turn the small group into a Catholic apologetics class, unless the class voluntarily takes you there.

If you need some help, share with your Evangelical brothers and sisters the DVD Common Ground: What Protestants and Catholics Can Learn From Each Other and its study guide. I know that comes off as a shameless plug for one of our products (and it is), but this DVD produced by a "Protestant-Evangelical" "church" is changing hearts for the right reason.

It is far better to be around Christians who are excited about their faith and studying the Bible, than to hang with ambivalent Catholics who lack enthusiasm for the things of God.

By the way, Jack, I hear that Sunday's 5:30 pm life-teen Mass at OLGC "rocks."

Postscript

After this article was written, Jack and I found ourselves again at McDonalds near OLGC. A young man who had recently graduated from high school sat down near us. Jack recognized Ted as a member of his home parish, but had not seen him lately. When Jack asked where he was going to church, Ted mentioned the name of the large active Evangelical church down the street that Jack's teens would like to attend. When I asked Ted why he was not going to the Catholic parish, he said:

The youth group at [the evangelical church] is really large and it helps me connect better with other people and with God. The youth group at [the Catholic parish] was really small and not very active or exciting. Besides, my parents have just stopped going to Mass altogether.

We want to be careful never to ever encourage any Catholic to ever leave the sacraments. But at this point in his life, Ted may be using the right reason to get closer to God. Perhaps someday he will return to the Catholic Church full of the excitement for God he found in Evangelicalism and infect those in Catholicism that are lukewarm. Please work and pray for the Church, that in our desire to be Catholic we will not fall prey to using the wrong reasons, but instead use the right reasons to keep our eyes, hearts, and passions centered on Jesus Christ, Our Lord!

Comments

56 responses to “Trying to Fly with One Wing, Part 10: Using the Wrong Reasons”

  1. Guest Avatar
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    Very interesting article.  I can't believe the woman's faith sharing group that prohibited theological discussion!  Sometimes faith sharing can't be separated from theology or from sharing of personal issues and how they intertwine with faith.

        The dilemma that the author raised is one that I have encountered often, as there are no really orthodox parishes in my diocese.  I've mentioned many times before on CE that there are few infertility/miscarriage resources in my diocese, and the few that exist are not faithful to Church teaching on infertility treatment.  (I don't have a Protestant alternative, but it's still an example of how frustrating it is when parishes don't provide good orthodox resources for the various issues that affect their congregation.) 

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    Thank you.  I am a cradle Catholic who spent the past twenty years following my husband from one evangelical church to another.  Finally settling on one with a very bible based and Christ centered focus.  The youth group is as you mentioned in your article, very active and community oriented.  Fortunately for me I found my Catholic roots again 6 years ago and have since been a daily Mass participant, availing myself of every bible study, procession, sacrament, etc., that I can crawl to, if need be.  This has not made for a pleasant home life, but  my Catholic faith cannot be denied.  The protestant church we attend has very devout, loving people.  Many times I think the pastor might be a Catholic because his sermons are much like the homily our Priest gave.  They have some of the truths but I sit there and pray that they can go that extra step and find the beauty, fullness and Truth of Our Lord that we Catholics know.  I know that God has put me in this situation for a very specific reason, (most all at the protestant church know my true devotion), I will continue to let Our Lord use me to offer any truths He wants me to carry to our protestant friends.  I continued to attend the protestant worship with my husband out of duty but I suppose the right reason would be to be an example of a charitable Catholic.  (Our children are almost grown, when the two oldest became 18, they converted to Catholicism, the two youngest will be able to decide for themselves when they have reached 18, as per their father,  please pray for them.)

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    Dear Dr. Williams

    Forgive me for being so forthright, but I must say with all the strength in me that there is never a good reason for sending any Catholic into the Protestant camp. Most especially if the Catholics in question are attracted to that camp because they are displeased, unhappy, unsatisfied, bored, fed-up, scandalized, humiliated, rejected, mortified, in pain (and so on and so forth) with whatever is happening in their Catholic parishes. I understand your arguments very well and even sympathize whole-heartedly because I have often found myself in many of the same, or worse, situations which you recount but, for crying out loud–literally!–the Catholic church is OUR family! it is ours, mean or genteel! boring or intersting! helpful or indifferent! chaste or pedofile! sinner or saint! MOTHER Church and the Holy FATHER are not mere theological terms symbolising this or that. THEY ARE REALITY! Furthermore, they are the only REAL reality of this world and that means for Protestants too. They, MOTHER Church and the Holy FATHER are the only real realities because they are the only realities which will be so in Heaven as they are on earth. What would our poor father in Rome (our "dear sweet Lord Jesus on earth"!) think about this kind of advice that we are tempted to give (in charity–ok) to our suffering brothers and sisters? Do you think he could be happy? Do you think he would encourage your children go to Protestant fellowship? even if there were no other alternatives? I can think of a lot of things that he would suggest instead of that. Like why don't you all start a fellowship group in your home? And instead of giving it a name, why not just call it: let's get together and pray the Rosary every Saturday and sing some nice songs and then play some touch football and have a bit of home-made pie afterwards, and while enjoying the pie read aloud from the lives of the many saints who found themselves all alone in heretical, indifferent, anti-Christian, unholy parishes and what they did to turn the situation into a real miracle.

    And about Judy, your poor friend, if she can find no spiritual comfort from her parish or from a good Catholic friend, I would be very happy to help her however I may. I was recently widowed myself, and in this unhappy time I have been able to know even more the boundless riches and heartening goodness of our faith which has all the needful ingredients for comforting not only the spiritual suffering but also for responding concretely to material exigencies. In this trial I have been greatly blessed and I can only wish for all my brothers and sisters in this, our Faith, that they too, especially those who suffer, that they may find what I have found. Take the gifts that have been given to us from on High! Receive them for the reason they have been given–for our nourishment, just like the manna that fell from heaven! (let us also be mindful of the Isrealites who became nauseated with that manna). We have the holy Mass, the holy Rosary, the sacrament of confession—let us make the best use of these gifts, and all the rest will follow.

    And then let us stick together! We are one, holy, and apostolic family! We must remain united. This is what our Holy Father wants–it is what God wants and what Christ came to accomplish, so that we might all be one! It is the Protestants who left the communion; let us not be tempted to follow them, no matter how more right or just or geener their Christian pastures may seem to us! We have the saints!! we have the sacraments!! we have the Blessed Virgin!! the Rosary!! if we are to turn our backs on these immense graces, where will we ever find greater graces and gifts and real medicine and health–and joy and peace? Where?!
    Let us be good and faithful and persevering Catholics! Let us help our weaker brothers and sisters to do likewise. And our parishes too in as much as we can. In any event we need to convince ourselves that the conversion (betterment) of our parishes, of our diocese, begins at home, begins with you and me. So let us begin! Let us pray!

    And God in good time will bring our Protestant brothers and sisters back into this, the only fold.

  4. Guest Avatar
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    Gotta go along with Catherine. In my experience, the fundies are attack dogs. They loathe the Church, esp. our Blessed Mother.

     

    Those I have encountered are looking to "save" us poor Catholics from the "Beast, Mother of Harlots etc."

     

    I would never EVER advise anyone to attend their sessions and learn of their apostacy.

    AndyP/Doria2 – Yonkers,  NY

     

     

     

  5. Guest Avatar
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    What a great column! Stan Williams deals with reality instead of dogma. To quote the author, "The youth group at their Catholic parish is small and mostly inactive." So is the youth group at our parish and most of the parishes around us because aging pastors with aging parishioners have not made evangelizing our youth a priority.

    Parents have no choice but to seek Christian peers at the youth groups of other churches.

    I would remind my sister Catherine that, at the only judgement that counts in this llife, we will be asked how well we followed Christ's teaching and example, not our denomination. Parents must teach their children to be good Christians, and in today's world, they need all of the help they can get.

    If the Catholic Church does not provide Christian role models and peers for youth, the parents' responsibility does not end, and they must seek other means of forming their children as Christians.

  6. Guest Avatar
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    Forgive my ignorance, but is it not a mortal sin to engage in Protestant worship as worship, and not as merely an observer? Is it not a grave sin of scandal to be seen in a Protestant context giving credence to their teaching and worship, in essence saying that Catholic worship, which is the Lord’s prescribed worship, is lesser or lacking or invalid? How dangerous it is to lead our children, for ANY reason, out of our Holy Mother Church into a lesser teaching, and not to take upon ourselves the responsibility to teach, form and imbue them with the depth and love to be found there!

  7. Guest Avatar
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    I agree with Catherine (above) as well. 

    I attended a "non-denominational" bible study for 6 years while bemoaning the fact that my Catholic parish didn't offer a bible study.  This year I am co-ordinating two at our parish! 

    If our parish is missing something and we are noticing it how can we not think its a nudge from the Holy Spirit to DO SOMETHING!

    We are the Church!  We need to be involved to get others involved.

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    I think we must remember Jesus Himself charged us to "Go and make disciples…" To do that we need to start being Christian not trying to constantly make up things to do in our parishes. If Bible study is restricted to only looking in the book we have missed the point of Bible study. If Jesus only wanted us to participate in rituals he would have sent a book down from heaven so we could follow the directions, but the Living Word was born so we could learn how to live, how to be. 

    The problems in our parishes is that we are not the ones sharing our faith lives with one another. We as Catholics have lost how to be Christian in our own faith communities. We tell groups and committees that we cannot contront one another on issues of faith because that would be uncomfortable for people. Now I am not advocating attacking people verbally but giving the truth lovingly. We have no oportunities to share, and when we do they are restricted.

    Our youth suffer because those people who have the gift to work with them are off busiy in the world doing something- coaching and running sports and acedemic activities for the kids to go do- instead of giving the kids opportunities at the parish to love God. I have been involved with youth in CCD and Confirmation prep for over ten years and the children are so full of entertainment and sports and acedemics they are lost when you say "Love the Lord!"

    It is our job to revitalize the parish. I can think of only one pastor I have known that would not allow some one to start a Bible study. If you are willing to research the materials available and you do all the ground work and present it and the advertising for it what pastor would turn you down? Most people are affraid of the youth and don't want to deal with the hard questions but those kids respect honesty from you and they can feel a fake. They allow you to find out more information on a tough topic but don't fake it with them. You will see how great the future Church could be if you nurtured these youth.

    I understand what DR. Stan is saying but I say let's do somehting about it in our own parish instead of shaking our heads and saying: "what a shame." 12 men began all that we see around us in Holy Mother Church how can we say we can't? Don't you think there are 12 people in each parish hidden under the bed or in the pew that are on fire for God? I do and I am one of them. I work to change things and it takes patience and time and help. What I find is that people want me to change everythign but they don't want to get involved. In turn that tells me they are not serious about loving God.

    We need to start by giving the gift we have right now to our parish. It may only be one extra Hail Mary for the pastor today or it might be trying to get to Mass one extra day a week or just starting to smile in the parking lot of the parish. Maybe you need to listen to someone this Sunday after Mass so someone can vent anf know they have been heard. These little changes grow and parishes change when each person gives just a little more- prayer, listening, smiling, compliments, offer to help carry something or thanking the clergy and the ushers, help an older person with getting up and down the curb or wait with them until some brings the car around to pick them up. For yourself carve out no more than 15 minutes a day to read one chapter of the New Testament everyday so you start a real relationship with Jesus, the Living Word, and then you will be ready to start a Bible study or lend a helping hand with one when the opportunity arises. This is what we need to revitalize the parish. It isn't everyone else's problem it is our problem. They are not doing it all wrong we are not doing it right.   

  9. Guest Avatar
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    I think participating in a Protestant fellowship could be acceptable, but only if the person is well-formed in his faith, is in no danger of being misled, and is prepared to defend his faith. But if a person is that well-formed and solid, I'd submit that he's probably not going to be that interested in what the Protestants have to offer. At least that's my experience; when I first came back to the Catholic Church 13 years ago, I participated in a Protestant fellowship where I observed people alive with faith and serious about following Jesus. But as my own formation has deepened, I can no longer imagine the circumstances that would cause me to look beyond my parish for anything.

     

    "I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for the things you have hidden from the wise and the learned you have revealed to the merest children." -Matthew 11:25

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    We all lament the absence of sound catechesis from priests and laity alike.  Your prescription, which in its essence is to instruct others to attend a protestant community if you can't find a parish that will nourish you, is certainly the easy way out but wrongheaded theologically, practically and pastorally–indeed, it is protestant in its approach.  If that approach were employed at my parish, it would be inert.  How about starting a Bible study at your parish (there are lot's of good guides out there as you know) and on top of that it will compel you to learn your faith.  The same applies with your youth group–furthermore, there's no reason why you can't collaborate with those in other parishes.

    Finally, you state "There are professionally trained clinical psychologists and marriage counselors to whom priests and pastors should be referring married couples."  Yes, but your response is much too limited as it fails to recognize the parallel between marriage and the call to the celibate priesthood–both are states of sacrificial self-giving.  No one is more attuned to that than a holy priest, and there are many out there if one once again makes the effort.  The notion that the priest being unmarried is incapable of providing sound counsel is a canard.  In reality, it is just the opposite.
  11. Guest Avatar
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    This article is not blithely suggesting anyone shed their Catholic faith nor is it recommending parish-hopping. The author is responding to a very difficult and very common circumstance–namely, where to find some shared sense of spirited worship and evangelism when your own parish seems to have very little of either. Williams' suggestion that to retain our faith we might actually have to attend another church for a time assumes something crucial (which several impatient responses to the article have missed): namely, that engaging with (and even worshipping with) our Evangelical brethren, if done in a conscious and informed way, need not endanger our Catholic faith. The very challenge we find there–assuming we rise to meet it by learning well our own faith–can strengthen us. If I may quote, "Be not afraid!"

    At times, I can see the Evangelical churches as the other half of something that is completed with our Catholic faith–the lost unity we once had. We need to acknowledge this lack and work–both inside our own parishes and outside, if need be–to restore it.

  12. Guest Avatar
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    WWJD indeed!  Blessings to Stan and the above commentators on this most worthwhile topic.  Perhaps the Church has addressed this matter specifically through competent authority.  If anyone knows of it, then please share it with us.

     

    On the other hand, the Church has outlined in the Code of Canon Law our "Obligations and Rights" as "Christian Faithful"    http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM with regard to identifying and attempting to correct problems, deficiencies, etc. in our parish and diocese.  Go to the Vatican's website referenced above, take a beverage break for a few minutes and read carefully and prayerfully read #204-231 found in Book II The People of God, Part I.  I also recommend every Catholic parent read Canon Law regarding Catholic Education. (Cann. 793-821)

     

    Even if you are not a lawyer, which I am not, you should find Canon Law easy to read and understand.  As for me and mine, what it inspired us to do, at the nudging of my bride, mind you, was to stay in our home parish and work to remedy the situation that at one point had prompted me to consider leaving the Church.  Through the grace of God, we, along with other likeminded parishioners, rolled up our sleeves several years ago to work on making our home parish our "home away from home."  We've made good progress, and yet have a ways to go.  Toward that end I now work side by side with our pastor in several areas including the Divine Liturgy even though I believe I'm as ill-qualified as Moses did to serve in such a capacity.  If nothing else, I have ample opportunity to practice the virtue of patience! 

     

    Certainly every situation is different, and the removal of the pastor by the local bishop as a last resort may be necessary (see Canon 1740 – 1752).  Nonetheless, we should be sure that we are well acquainted with what our "Obligations and Rights" are as outlined by the Church and give them their due before taking or advocating drastic measures.    

    God bless you and yours, TJO (2 Cor 5:14)

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    Catherine, you're a gem. Your comments are all substance.

    I love Dr. Williams' style and logic and humor. He would draw me in if I was in this or the other denomination. His article is targeted to the consumers of religion. That is what we've become – consumers. What am I getting out of it, now?

    He's using great Protestant logic but bad Catholic logic. Luther's logic was the former. We Catholics don't go to church for excitement. The Mass is "the" Worship and it is "the" Thanksgiving, there is no other. To a bored young mind this is pompous doctrine. The challenge to Dr. Williams and all of us, is getting this information across with all the skill and fervor that we posses. The challenge is to exhort the youth to initiate something, to be a supplier and not a consumer. As Catherine said: "why don't you all start a fellowship group in your home?" parish, community but something that is not at odds with the Church. Now that's an accomplishment.

    I have tremendous admiration for people like Dr. Williams and another poster, sistercatherine who are there on the front lines, interacting with Protestants and looking for ways to defend the faith and hold on to the great pearl that is our Holy Mother Church 

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    Although I have participated in evangelical Bible studies I never would do so again. Nor do I allow my children to attend any protestant functions.  I feel blessed that my Guardian Angel protected my faith during my years of attendance at non Catholic groups.  I also believe that the Holy Spirit imparted truths into my soul through those beautiful Christian women including the particular courses I took (Beth Moore studies).

    Despite some positives, on par I wouldn't recommend attending non Catholic studies.  First, there are Catholic bible studies available now through Catholics United for the Faith (CUF).  MaryAnne Budnik has some wonderful studies too.  I have started bible studies in my church using the  mentioned materials when there weren't any groups available.  (Better to light a candle than sit in the dark.) 

    Secondly, I believe it could be dangerous to one's Catholic faith to attend  evangelical groups.  A faithful beginner could come away confused about the Truth.  These are not ecumenical groups.  There is no mention of sacraments, Mary, the Eucharist, magisterium, saints, liturgical calendar, Sacred Tradition, and so forth.  Out of respect for my hosts, I rarely evangelized them in the Catholic faith except in very subtle ways and always in reference to direct scripture. (it wasn't the place for it).  Eventually, I stopped attending  these non Catholic studies, despite the people who were friendly and  outgoing on their evangelical terms, because I missed being Catholic and didn't want to put my faith to the test.

    With regard to children and teens attending protestant functions or groups like AWANA and youth groups and  worship services.  There is anti Catholic bias in many of them.  For instance, the proof texting of scripture.  "You are saved by faith, through grace."   True enough, however, protestants use that against Catholics in the works vs faith argument.  They also omit key scripture (like the entire Bread of LIfe discourse in John Chapter 6.) Many of these youth groups succeed by titilating every sensory nerve of kids.  Rarely is there a "be still and know that I am Lord" moment as during the "boring" Benediction services.

     

    I think there is a false premise at work when a Catholic claims a protestant institution is the only organization where their faith can  be fed.  My husband and I have traveled long distances to ensure that we and our ten children receive the fullness of the Faith without compromise. Our current parish is 45 minutes away and I teach Faith Formation there.  For years we made monthly pilgrimages to a parish  almost two hours away in order for the kids, primarily, to participate in the splendor and truth of the liturgy (St Mary's in Greenville, SC).  

    I believe the Father of Lies tries to use the ostensibly beneficial protestant tools to draw Catholics away from the Truth. I will not risk my soul nor that of my children because some good might come of it or a protestant bible study is "better than nothing".  How much is your faith worth?  What effort will you expend to nurture it?  What sacrifice are you willing to make to remain in the Heart of the Church, through Mary?

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    Dearest Techwreck,

    A large part of the problem is that PARENTS have not made youth evangelization a priority. The Church is the hand of God who nourishes us with spiritual and material substance (the sacraments) for our happy survival here on earth while making us fit for everlasting life with our good Father in heaven. Evangilization of the youth is the primary responsibility of the parents who are baptised in the Church. When there is no correct evangilization in the home and through the example of the parents, or even just one of the parents (or even just a grandmother or an uncle!), if there is no example in the immediate family, then there is not much of any lasting good that a church youth group can accomplish. On the other hand, the pastors of the Church are certainly urged by Christ to go out in search of the lost sheep–and they will be held accountable. But we too will be held accountable –whether we are parents or "just" members of the Chuch–which makes us members of Christ, which makes us all one big family and as such we are each of us responsible one for the other. And I'm sure that each one of us will have to answer to God for the instruction we did not give to our brothers and sisters; this is one of the most important of the spiritual acts of charity! because though we may not scandalize the little ones and the weak ones with untoward behavior, it is still a mighty great sin leaving them open to scandal and heresy (Protestantism) and thus the loss of their Catholic faith by failing to give them continual instruction and correction according to the teaching of our wise Mother Church!

    Dearest Techwreck, we are Catholics, we are the body of Christ! We are Christ! and that is why our's is not a religion and much less a denomination. Protestants have left the body of Christ and so live only a part of the truth of it. They will be judged differently and with different considerations and maybe with more leniency–they do certainly put us to shame often. But there it is, we have a greater resposibility before God than they do–MORE is given to the Cathlic faithful through the Church because ALL of Christ is made available to us–and we are not having to make do with the crumbs that fall from our plates. But as in the Gospel account, the faith of a woman outside of the one true faith was honored by Christ for her feisty reply and for her steadfast belief that Jesus could love even her and so heal her daughter. That is what faith is–it is love. And that is what will be rewarded–with miracles in this life and with much peace and joy in the next life!

    And the Catholic Church provides for us a rich profusion of holy examples–the saints! Let us embrace them. And rest assured that for we who are in the Church already, this is where we need to stay because it is the only place where we will become all that God wants us to become

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    Coming to the Catholic Church from the Protestant Church has only deepened my faith, my unity and relationship and understand of Christ. Yes, we very much need Scripture and a deep understanding of just how much God teaches us and talks to us through His Holy Scripture. But the true difference (although there are others) is the Eucharist… the real Body and Blood of Christ, the center of the Mass, Heaven coming down to us. There is devotion, Love and relationship with God, the Holy Spirit, all that saves… but without the Eucharist, there is not the fullness with Jesus Christ that the Catholic Church gives us. With the Sacraments, the Eucharist, there is a fuller, higher Spiritual dimension that I never knew in the Protestant Church. I pray that the divisions and hostilities of 500 years ago (which the devil loves to cause then and now) can be put aside and we can have a better Love for one another. As the world grows colder to Christ, I would hope those who Love Him so much will grow warmer in their Love for one another. 

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    Catherine, thanks for your interesting insights especially this one:

    But there it is, we have a greater resposibility before God than they do–MORE is given to the Cathlic faithful through the Church because ALL of Christ is made available to us–and we are not having to make do with the crumbs that fall from our plates. But as in the Gospel account, the faith of a woman outside of the one true faith was honored by Christ for her feisty reply and for her steadfast belief that Jesus could love even her and so heal her daughter. That is what faith is–it is love. And that is what will be rewarded–with miracles in this life and with much peace and joy in the next life!

    thanks. 

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    I have never heard that it's a mortal sin to worship in a Protestant service.  It's not something I would do on a regular basis, and I certainly wouldn't receive Communion there, but there are times when it's necessary to attend such as at a funeral.  I'm not going to refuse to participate in the prayers unless they are theologically incorrect.

         I agree with the commenter who said that participation in Protestant fellowship can be risky for those who are not well catechized.  

          Claire O'Neill:  unfortunately, my pastor totally blew off my husband repeatedly when he requested to start a Bible study at our parish.  My hunch is that it's because my husband is well known to be a faithful, orthodox Catholic, and that is more than my parish or diocese can tolerate.

         Fellowship is often lacking in Catholic parishes, and this is one area where we could really learn from our Protestant brothers and sisters.  However, no matter how dry, how un-orthodox, or how few resources are offered in my Catholic parish/diocese, I still refuse to leave the Sacraments of the Catholic Church. 

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    I have to agree with Catherine – I have known too many Catholics who have been led away from faith by energetic Evangelicals.  Such groups are far too great a temptation (a "near occasion of sin") to a Catholic who is not extremely well-formed and educated in the faith.  Nobody has yet mentioned the ecclesial movements, such as Regnum Christi, Communion & Liberation, Opus Dei, etc., which are completely loyal to the magisterial Church, and work with the local bishop, although under independent direction.  Jack and Judy et. al. can find all they need and more, WITHIN the Church, in one of these groups.

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    I'm with Catherine, and I've been in some pretty horrible parish situations, including ones that we tried very hard to improve within our sphere of influence (and were unsuccessful because of the pastor). It was very, very difficult and very hard on our family, spiritually. But you could not pay me to have tried to find some sort of alternative outside of the Church. As a homeschooler, I've had plenty of exposure to well-intended but misguided Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants (the ones that would have "good" programs and would be on fire for Jesus) and I think that while SOME of them might accept that we are Christians, most (all?) are very concerned that we leave the "errors" of Rome and are going to be trying very hard to "help" us do just that. It's a bad situation to get into, IMO.

     

    There is nothing more valuable than your Faith, and you have a grave obligation to protect it and protect and nurture the faith of your children. It would be worth relocating in order to be somewhere that you can do that, if in this current mess, you cannot easily do it where you are.

     

    We are so very blessed as a family now to be in a community with wonderful priests, beautiful liturgy, and fantastic oppotunities for all of us to grow in our faith outside of Mass, as well. We drive 40 minutes each way for Mass and would drive further if necessary. There are people in our parish who have found new jobs and moved to be here, just for the parish, it is that amazing. All parishes should be like this! In case anyone is wondering, it is staffed by priests from the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP) and is in Kansas City, KS. Here's the website: http://www.latin-mass.org/spd/ Any refugees from liturgical madness, heretical homilies, watered-down CCD, etc, are more than welcome!

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    I for one, as a Southern Baptist, would think it would serve us all well to "be sent into another's camp," from time to time.  The issue is not Catholic or Protestant but whether there are Christians in need being ministered the right way.  You know, there really is a lot of truth to the saying, "that God works in mysterious ways," and perhaps a Catholic can deepen their faith at a Protestant meeting  and vice versa. 

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    Regarding differences on the Virgin Mary, they do exist and perhaps for the right reason but being called a "fundie" does not really encourage dialgoue that would illustrate to me, a Southern Baptist, why this aspect of Catholic theology is important.  I do find myself wondering why any Christian would pray to Mary when we are instructed to pray to God.  So, can any of the Catholics on here explain that to me, please?

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    Dear Stan

    As this seems to be a hot topic I thought I would share my ten cents worth. I am a convert to the Catholic faith. Before that I was a cradle Anglican leaning very much to the evangelical practice. I have always needed the sacraments in the Anglican way and whenever I attended Protestant churches for whatever reason I found them incomplete for satisfaction of my faith desires. I feel that this is the same with Catholics who turn from their denomination, they always will have a hunger for something that is lacking and many will come back. I go to the Mass because I get something from it and that is Jesus. Now Jesus strangely enough told us to make disciples of all nations. Jesus also ate with sinners touched them and listened to them. Paul also tells us that to convert a Jew we must become like Jew, and since we are in the world but not part of it we are to evangelize where the world is. I have yet to find the opportunity whether it is working in RCIA or in the Mass or other Catholic function to properly carry out the command to make disciples other than Catholics. This tells me that I have to go to the Protestant camp to win disciples or to the bars or other byways or highways to carry out my mandate. Psalm 23 tells us that if we walk through the valley of the shadow of death we shall fear no evil for He is with us. Believe it or not ones faith grows at an exponential rate when you encounter heresy prepare for it with apologetics and get into the world and do our duty. We attend mass, Eucaristic adoration, and the Rosary as a means to fulfil our obligation " I can do all things when Christ is in me". 
    Sorry folks we just cannot sit in the pew and be fed and live in isolation and expect the Lord to bless us. Dr Stan is quite right, get out there into the dangerous places and do what Christ told us to do. Be an example and evangelize and if you have to use words and correct the misunderstandings others have about the Catholic Church. Being an isolationist will not win souls.
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    Joseph,

    the long and the short of it is simply that we are asking Mary to pray for us. (The same would go for any other saints or angels.) Jesus worked His first public miracle at her request, and there is no reason to think that she's any less "well-connected" now than she was 2000 years ago. Mary is the ultimate prayer warrior. More detailed answers available upon request. Smile

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    Dr. Williams,

     

    Are you HELPING or HARMING those lackluster Catholic parishes by telling Catholics it is OK to go to Evangelical communities to get what they think they need?

     

    Are you HELPING or HARMING those unfulfilled Catholic individuals whose faith may still be immature and weak by telling them it is OK to go to Evangelical communities to get what they think they need?

     

    I would submit to you that to frame the question as "Lukewarm Catholic or on-fire Protestant" is to imply that we must choose between one error or another.  The answer is neither.

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    PS: i do not mean to say that Protestant communities are not a channel of grace.  They are.  FOR PROTESTANTS !  It is usually wrong (notice I said usually) for a baptized Catholic to go to a Protestant community seeking there what he feels he should be getting from Catholicism.

    God can and does redeem our mistakes – but they are still mistakes.

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    Amen, urbanh!

    The sad truth is that many Catholics do not feel the fire of the Faith in their local parishes.  The solution is not to go to the Protestants, but to re-ignite the parish!  God has put each of us here for a reason, and it is not to build up our sense of well-being and to affirm ourselves in our okayness.  It is to know Him, love Him and serve Him.

    Why sacrifice truth for entertainment? Spark up the fire!

    And, yes, most evangelicals — at least those trained in running women's groups or organizing Bible studies — are trained in how to pull Catholics out of the Church.

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    Very interesting discussion! I have many experiences about practical ecuminism, I have to say, unfortunately. In my country catholics are a small minority and most of them (us) not very orthodox in their faith. My family and a few other families with small kids try to be. Our bishop is supportive, basically. Our priests are good, some of them not so good but the liturgy is normally ok, no abuses etc. We would like to go to traditional latin mass but that's seldom, we don't have it in this country! Every time we have to order a priest from abroad and that costs….

    Anyway, what I wanted to share is, that every situation is different. For example, if kids want to go to a vibrant evangelical community, well, that might not be the best thing to do but it also depends on the family and if the parents are well-informed and able to discuss doctrinal and sacramental issues at home, "set the things right", if some indoctrination is done from the side of the protestant friends. 
    Our elder daughter (now 6) goes to preschool and if they have anything "religious" (eg.going to protestant church before christmass, some lutheran pastor having a prayer with the children etc.) going on, we have agreed she can participate. At home we pray the rosary and go to mass every sunday and holy day of obligation. Sometimes our daughter says that she even makes the sign of the cross before lunch or prays the rosary in the kindergarten….
    I don't know what will happen when our kids are teenagers. I hope and pray we can help them to grow good christians, good catholics who are able to evangelize and not afrightened to tell about their faith. I don't believe "getto-living", just hanging around with other young catholics (even if that were possible) would be the answer. Christ died to save us all, we are very precious to him!
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    Here is another opinion excerpted from Steve Woods', "How I Led Catholics Out of the Church"

    Read the whole article at:
     http://www.dads.org/article.asp?artId=20

    Step 1: Get Catholics to have a conversion experience in a Protestant setting.

    Most Fundamentalist, Evangelical, and charismatic Protestant churches have dynamic youth programs, vibrant Wednesday and Sunday evening services, and friendly small-group bible studies…. At the invitation of a Protestant friend, a Catholic may begin attending one or more of these events while still going to Sunday Mass at his local parish. …

    Protestant pastors, evangelists, youth leaders, and lay ministers are acutely aware that conversion experiences in Protestant settings often lead to a Protestant faith and church membership. Why do so many Catholic leaders fail to see this? Why are they so nonchalant about a process that has pulled hundreds of thousands of Catholics out of the Church?

    Step 2: Give their conversion a Protestant interpretation.
    ….In my experience as a Protestant, all the Catholics who had a conversion in a Protestant setting lacked a firm grasp of their Catholic faith. In twenty years of Protestant ministry, I never met a Catholic who knew that John 3:3-8 describes the sacrament of Baptism. It wasn’t hard to convince them to disregard the sacraments along with the Church that emphasized the sacraments.

    Step 3: Accuse the Catholic Church of denying salvation by grace.
    …I used Ephesians 2:8-9 to convince Catholics that it was imperative for them to leave the Church:

    For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. …

    Should Catholics Participate in Protestant Events?

    I have no objection to Catholics participating in Protestant-oriented events and worthwhile ecumenical activities provided that:

    * They have a firm grasp of their Catholic faith.
     
    * They know their faith well enough to articulate it to a non-Catholic, using Scripture and the Church fathers.
     
    * They have the maturity to realize that the most profound presence of Christ isn’t necessarily found in the midst of loud noise and high emotion, but in quiet moments like Eucharistic adoration (see 1 Kings 19:11-12).

    Unfortunately, the majority of Catholic men born after WWII don’t meet the above conditions. For them, attending Protestant functions may be opening a door that will lead them right out of the Catholic Church.

    Dado
    AMDG

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    AMEN, Dado!!!

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    Lest you think any of the preceding was mine it was not, all of it was from Steve Woods' article.

     Dado

    AMDG

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    In my college years I began to attend a non-Denominational Church (like the one you speak of in your post).  I was young and very materialistic.  The big screens, rock-worship, and donuts during the services really appealed to me.  As time went on I began to realize the worship I had left behind.  I began to discern the reasons for attending this church or that church.

    Liturgy is not always the most entertaining form of worship, however if you understand liturgy it can be the most beautiful form of worship. The Catholic Mass is centered around Christ and His Word (not that other forms of worship are not).  It is very easy to be more attracted to the things of this world (or to the feel good church).  The Catholic Liturgy, however is just so packed with sacred scripture, prayer, and reverence that donuts, coffee, and all the other things can not compare.

    I have read two great books by Marva J Dawn (a Lutheran author).  I recommend them both. Even though she is referring to the Lutheran form of liturgy, she makes many great points that can be beneficial to Catholics.

    God Bless,
    – Joshua from Ohio

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    Every decent size Catholic conference has at least one Protestant speaker who has left his or her denomination to join the Catholic Church.  Every decent size Protestant conference has at least one Catholic speaker who has left his or her denomination to join the Protestant church.  Each speaker is gregariously welcomed "home" and the entire audience acts as if it is "one for the team."  I am amazed and believe that Satan must be having a field day with how we will spend our time looking at our saved brethren and pointing fingers when there are so many more things that need to be done for God's kingdom.  It is time to work together as the time of Christ's second coming is at hand.

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    liveblueforever: We pray to Mary because the Archangel Gabriel, God's messenger, addressed her with the words, "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). Mary is high in God's favor, is pleasing to the Lord, and is the mother of Jesus. What could be more natural than asking someone's mother for a favor? Would you ask your best friend's mother to pray for you, or to help you somehow? What's the difference?

     

    "I praise you Father, Lord of heaven and earth, for the things you have hidden from the wise and the learned you have revealed to the merest children." -Matthew 11:25

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    Interesting discussion indeed!! So interesting that I am compelled to post a comment…this is the first time I've ever done anything like this!!

     I'd like to respond to the poster who commented that "when we get to Heaven God won't ask what denomination we are."

    In George Weigel's book "The Courage to be Catholic" he explains that Catholicism IS NOT a denomination because, the true definition of a demonination is a group which is governed by its community (peers).

    The Catholic Church is a Church because it is governed by Christ, therefore not a denomination. This is not a direct quote but his WONDERFUL explanation of the differences are eye-opening.  I encourage every lukewarm Catholic to read this book! (Why, because I was lukewarm and this text along with the help of Mama Mary have made all the difference in my faith !!)

    I whole-heartedly agree with Catherine and the other posters who have communicated the message to STAY PUT in your parish.  Ask the Holy Spirit to open your heart and mind to Adoration, Stewardship, Ministry… then follow HIS will and DO SOMETHING!  Our parish was stale and numb 4 years ago… and then we started Adoration every Friday… the fruit is AMAZING (CSS Bible Studies, Re-energized RCIA, vocations, First Friday Vigils, stronger Youth Programs, etc.)… What a blessing! God is good ALL THE TIME…even when we mere humans think God isn't there… He's waiting for us to listen and then to do HIS WILL.

    My prayer is that one day we will all be united in the Holy Mother Church. Please pray for the conversion of all souls. But most importantly PRAY FOR OUR PRIESTS AND BISHOPS!

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    Read the Catholic Catechism 813 to 870.

    Dave
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    Oh, I can't believe what I read. I have family that have left the Catholic Church and joined a evangelical church, and I am always being preached to that I am not going to heaven, that anyone that prays the rosary is going to hell, we are not christian, we drink blood.  Family members want the remaining Catholics to leave the church and join them so we can be saved.  Well, needless to say, our family is divided and I never thought that religion would cause so much heartache.  I have joined bible classes, small christian community and Secular Fransician 3rd Order.  I do wish that more Catholics would get involved in their church activities, they would find their faith growing stronger, their love and wanting to hear and learn more about Jesus. We have many programs at our church and many other churches in the area to fit all types of people to help in their faith journey 

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    Too much painting with a broad brush going on here.

    Some Evangelicals are "anti-Catholic" but not all.

    On the other hand things can be so bad for kids that leaving the Catholic church ends up being a secondary issue — the question might be whether they maintain any faith in Christ at all.

    It is a mortal sin to take communion in a Protestant Church; it is no sin at all to pray or study the Scirptures with them, unless by doing so one is (a.) endangering ones own faith or (b.) causing the faith of others to be weakened or (c.) causing someone else to stumble into the sin of indifferentism (i.e. the sin of thinking that which church you go to doesn't matter).

    So — there are definitely dangers, but there may also be blessings in the fellowship with non-Catholics.

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    Wow!  What a discussion!  So many thoughts and feelings: good, bad, and indifferent.

    If I may, I'd like to tackle the "indifferent".  In all I read, I didn't see a single post that indicted the lukewarm.  Why are the lukewarm, lukewarm?  Because they have no personal relationship with God.  It is only in "knowing Him intimately" that we become "fired up"!  That "fire" is called "Love".  It's another name for the Holy Spirit.  The Holy Spirit is a Gift we received in the Sacrament of Baptism.  Kindling was added and a gentle Breath blew on it in the Sacrament of Confirmation.  Someone (perhaps Joseph Bailey can help with this one?) said, "God is Unchangable.  He is always with us.  If you feel far away from God, guess who moved!"  If you find that you've "moved", ask the Holy Spirit to "light that fire" again.

    To Joseph Bailey, who's writing I admire, may I offer the following: There is "pray", and then there is "pray".  In the Latin, they are 2 different words with different meanings.  Check it out.  Unlike some 'mothers' today, Mary will never "abort" a child who comes to her.  Try it: you might be surprised.

    And, to Kathy Nelligan: I'm right there with you.  My husband, the cradle Catholic, left the Church when the Vatican II changes began being implimented.  I, a convert and re-vert, left too, but came back for all the right reasons.  Several years ago, he literally pleaded with me to go to his church.  One day, I realized what he was actually meaning, and replied, "Sure, I'll be glad to go; just let me know in advance so I can get to Mass first".  His face fell about 6 feet and he pouted for days, but he's never asked me again.  As to the "flesh and blood" issue, I always acknowledge that they are right: we DO eat flesh and drink blood……just like THEIR Lord told THEM to do in John, chapter 6.  (I don't hear about that anymore, either!)

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    stacey,

    Thank you for replying and please feel free to add to your answer.  I have always had a great deal of difficulty in understanding this teaching of praying to Mary but I have been on this site and other Catholic sites seeking to "walk a mile in your shoes."

    I would posit that a, "lukewarm Catholic," is exactly the issue here more than an, "on-fire Protestant," as what I have observed (and please, these are only my statements) is that many Catholics have a laid-back or in fact, lukewarm approach to their religious faith.  I read this past summer where Benedict XVI makes his statement about the Catholic Church being the "only true church," and what I think about that statement is secondary to the fact that many Catholics seem to distant themselves from that teaching.  Yet, would that not be theologically or doctrinally sound teaching from a Catholic standpoint?

    I do think that many Protestants have a vibrant faith but not because of anything loud or other such stuff.  Yes, some do but most of us simply believe what we say and say what we believe and do not doubt that our faith is sincere and alive for God.  It is true that Catholics and Protestants have had issues for five centuries now but would it not serve God better if we both just agree to disagree and more importantly work together on fulfilling the Great Commision?  I know of Southern Baptists who will work up a program to "save Catholics."  However, while a particular Catholic may in fact, "need saving," too often Protestants ignore the fact that our line of Christianity comes from a Catholic heritage.  That being said we may, as I said earlier, agree to disagree but I for one can acknowledge where my religious faith originated.

    I have observed that for many Catholics they seem to believe or pray with a an eye open to see if God really is alive and that it is okay to have religious faith.  Then I see a Protestant who is 100% sure that their faith is real and I think that is where such a discussion of "lukewarm Catholics," originates.  I am of the opinion that even for a 100% hardcore Southern Baptist like me, there is much to learn from Catholicism, I would posit why do Catholics not believe that about their own faith?

    Joseph Bailey

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    I have put my faith in Jesus Christ but I am not a Catholic. Some here might say that I practice pagan worship at my Baptist Church and commit mortal sin each time I remember Christ's sacrifice on the cross. I realize that this is not how all Catholics feel.

    Why is it that a devout Muslim who follows Allah is believed by Catholics "to be able to" enter heaven having no understanding of Jesus and yet on this forum such a division has been made against your brothers in Christ. Yes, there are those in my church that are hostile towards Catholics. Just as I can see that there are some on here that are hostile to my faith. However, I do not believe that all Catholics are attack dogs because of the few. When Catholic’s attend my Church I welcome them with open arms, and yes I have been to Mass on multiple occasions.

    In reply to what cooky642 wrote:

    "…we DO eat flesh and drink blood……just like THEIR Lord told THEM to do in John, chapter 6. (I don't hear about that anymore, either!)"

    I would be happy to discuss John chapter 6 with you. Simply open up a new forum under faith and life and ask your question and I will be happy to reply. I do ask that you take some time to pray and come with a pure heart. I ask this because I find it hard to have a respectful dialogue when statements like the one above are made. I realize that you are passionate about this matter, as am I, but in text in ALL CAPS and explanation marks can be understood as hostility and reflect a frustrated and hardened condition of the heart.

    I do love Catholics and I strive to understand, for my family is Catholic and I deeply want to understand why Catholics believe what Catholics believe.

    May the LORD bless you and keep you all!

     

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    Promised Land,

    I think the major error here is, what are they doing, instead of what am I doing.

    I would like to inject my comment by answering the question posed at the beginning of the artice, "is it better…", by affirming what someone has already stated. By the power of the Word of God, given to us as a source of knowledge, along with the faith of our fathers, Sacred Tradition, neither is acceptable to God.

    However, that returns me to the crux of the matter. When Jesus speaks to us of our judgement, he does not speak to a group. He states emphatically, "when I was hungry, you did not feed me, when I was thirsty you gave me nothing to drink…" We should not understand this to be the only way to a favorable judgement if we do indeed do these things he asks. Jesus also commands us at the Last Supper, "do this in remembrance of Me." St Paul reminds the Corinthians, "For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord."

    Jesus says, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man, you will have no life in you." The Greek word used is, I believe, "sarks" or hunk of meat. "If you love me, you will keep my commandments." 

    It is my understanding of the great majority of protestant denominations that their faith is Scripturally based, indeed, most uphold the precepts of Martin Luther's Sola Scriptura and Sola Fidei. This being said, I offer this question, how does a person in these faith denominations deal with the lack of the word "alone" in reference to "by faith alone" being present in the texts that Martin Luther translated into German?

    I will add another, if you please, with these precepts being the foundation of the protestant reformation, how then does it stand? By what authority? If it is an argument that needs to be won, let us let the Bible settle it then. The whole Bible taken into context, not verses taken out of context or some verses taken literally and others personally interpreted to be spiritual in nature.

    Also of interest is that Martin Luther loved the Blessed Mother and gave her every honor that the Catholic Church does.

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

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    Wow, what a great discussion! My thanks to all of you and to CE for providing the forum.

    After taking in all of your comments, I would like to add a thought. It is understandable that we Catholics feel great comfort in our Church that can trace its origins to Christ. But, the Church is not perfect. If Christ had wanted a perfect Church, He would not have given it to humans to run. So, I am a little troubled by the criticisms of our Protestant brothers and sisters, as though we Catholics practice perfect Christianity. We don't because we are human.

    It is just possible that when Christ referred to His Church, He meant all of his followers, not just those aligned with a particular church, because He knew that, as humans, we would have differences. I believe that all Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I have gained valuable insights from Protestants that attend our "Catholic" bible study at our Church.

    Christ told us, his followers, to love one another. He didn't make any exceptions, and we shouldn't either.

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    techwreck,

    Jesus said much, so much that John, the Evangelist, states that if all he said and did was recorded it would fill the earth! And in a round about way, hasn't it?

    Christ prayed to the Father, His Father and ours by our brotherhood with Him, through Him and in Him, that we may be one.

    Christ also said of the end times, which is every time for every person,  "Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains. So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather." 

    Let me clarify that I am not implying that the Christian denominations are anti-Christs. What I am saying is that he that would see the destruction of that which God holds in high esteem, us, relishes the division of the brothers and sisters united in their belief of Jesus' cross, and that Scripture is a never ending wealth of learning how to achieve that which God desires for us all. However, the interpretation of this Sacred text has lead many souls to destruction. The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. The Church, St PAul's Church, is the mystical Body of Christ with Jesus at its Head comprised of all the sons and daughters of God. The Church is, was and always will be, the Catholic Church.

     

    Christ is incapable of lying, therefore, when two or more gather in His name, He shall be there. Now, all we have to do is listen to Him as our Blessed Mother implored the servants at the Wedding Feast.

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

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    Promised Land,

    You wrote: Why is it that a devout Muslim who follows Allah is believed by Catholics "to be able to" enter heaven having no understanding of Jesus and yet on this forum such a division has been made against your brothers in Christ.

    For my part, the Muslim may be allowed entrance, but in my mind it may be harder for the Christian because he has had access to all that is needed, and, for whatever reason, be it family, obstinance, troubles, scandal, etc., has chosen his path.

    I, for one, and I know you disagree with this way of thinking, greatly desire your prayers as I believe that there is much recompense needed for me to enter heaven.

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

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    I submit this as I feel it applies to the discussion: 

    "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

    Yes, Jesus said that! 

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

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    Regarding comments whether a Muslim will enter heaven, I recommend that we all reread John 14:6, concerning that matter.  Also, concerning the definition of the, "church" then perhaps we should reread Matthew 10:32-33.  Human beings can have all kind of debates about "who is the church" but in the end what matters is whether a person places their faith in the Christ to save their eternal soul.  Now how we disciple after that decision may lead to intense discussions about Catholic vs Protestant or even Orthrodox but it would behoove all Christians the world over to perhaps be willing to allow that we need to look at the truth of Matthew 7:21-23 as well as Matthew 8:11, before we say who will be in heaven. 

     

    In recent years, I have deepened my walk in Christ from reading the Cathechism of the Catholic Church as well as other documents but I am still very sure that I am a Southern Baptist in my daily practice of being Christian.  However, I am not as inclined to worry if a Catholic is "saved" as perhaps others are and recognize that the Liturgy and teachings of the Catholic Church is every bit as valid as anything a Protestant would use.  Sure there are differences in theology/practive but that is merely a call to practice "brotherly love," don't ya think?

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    Joseph, we really shouldn't be speculating about who is saved and who isn't.  Only God can make that determination, as he can read hearts and knows how much information the person had available, how responsible they are, etc.  I think it's great that you have been reading the Catechism.  You clearly are a faithful Christian with a zeal for the gospel and a love of the Lord.  I'm sure that he will continue to reveal his will to you as you continue to study his word and worship him.

     

    Promised Land:  I can't imagine that anyone here would judge the form of worship in your Baptist parish to be pagan, or consider you to be committing a mortal sin when you remember Christ's sacrifice.  And I'm sorry that you were offended by Cooky's capitalization of her comment.  Having "known" her for a while on this site, I'm sure she didn't mean for it to sound hostile.

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    I wish I had time to have participated in the good discussion this 10th in the series of my articles of Reason has fostered. But, I have been busy with a number of faith formation initiatives, and am still drawn away from the computer for the next few days. Catholic apologist and author Dave Armstrong was trying to be involved, but password problems kept him off this comment board as well. So, it was probably God's will until now that we could post rebuttals of what the article articulates. Here's is Dave's response. [–Stan Williams]

    ———–

    Armstrong: I'm responding to many of the critical comments on Stan's article, having myself been an advisor when he wrote it. Stan is preoccupied with some other work at the moment. I'm sure he'll respond as time permits. The comments of others are in italics, and my comments follow.

    Comment: Furthermore, they are the only REAL reality of this world and that means for Protestants too. They, MOTHER Church and the Holy FATHER are the only real realities because they are the only realities which will be so in Heaven as they are on earth.

    Armstrong: They are the fullest realities of Christian, biblical, apostolic truth but not the only "real" ones. This contradicts the teaching of Vatican II, that says Protestants receive grace in a very real way indeed, and are part of the Body of Christ, even if imperfectly.

    Comment: In my experience, the fundies are attack dogs. They loathe the Church, esp. our Blessed Mother. Those I have encountered are looking to "save" us poor Catholics from the "Beast, Mother of Harlots etc."

    Armstrong: Anti-Catholics are this way, sure, but many, many Protestants are not. I think Stan's article presupposes that one in the situation he describes would not choose such a poor example of Protestantism anyway. Knowing Stan, I know he would agree with this.

    Comment: I would never EVER advise anyone to attend their (Protestant) sessions and learn of their apostasy.

    Armstrong: This is contrary to Vatican II also, which does not blame present-day Protestants for "apostasy." One has to be part of a faith in order to apostatize from it. Protestants born in the Protestant faith today cannot be apostates. I was not an apostate, nor was Stan, when we were Protestants, because we had never personally been Catholic: had never experienced it from the inside.

    Comment: Forgive my ignorance, but is it not a mortal sin to engage in Protestant worship as worship, and not as merely an observer?

    Armstrong: It would be a sin or at least seriously imprudent to receive a Protestant Eucharist [which is not The Eucharist per se, but rather symbolic communion – sw]. Just sitting listening to a sermon is scarcely even "worship" from a Catholic perspective. But in the article Stan was mainly referring to non-Church activities that many Protestants excel in. That wouldn't be a matter of formally worshiping with them.

    Comment: Is it not a grave sin of scandal to be seen in a Protestant context giving credence to their teaching and worship, in essence saying that Catholic worship, which is the Lord's prescribed worship, is lesser or lacking or invalid?

    Armstrong: It doesn't follow that all of this is going on by merely being present there. If indeed Protestants are part of the Body of Christ (as baptized Trinitarians) and have many means of grace, even unto salvation, as Vatican II teaches, then one can't speak in these sweeping terms, as if Protestants were totally foreign to us, as if they were voodoo practitioners or devil worshipers.

    Comment: How dangerous it is to lead our children, for ANY reason, out of our Holy Mother Church into a lesser teaching, and not to take upon ourselves the responsibility to teach, form and imbue them with the depth and love to be found there!

    Armstrong: In Stan's article, it is not an "either/or" proposition, but a "both/and." One doesn't have to deny Holy Mother Church to receive teaching in a Protestant context that is already at bottom Catholic, in the first place, in essence, and from the historical perspective.

    Lots of people are urging Catholics to start doing something. That's fine and dandy, and I don't believe the article would deny the importance of that (quite the contrary), but in the meantime there are still a lot of unmet needs, and that is the problem. We do what we can with the resources available, but we do something rather than nothing.

    Comment: We all lament the absence of sound catechesis from priests and laity alike. Your prescription, which in its essence is to instruct others to attend a protestant community if you can't find a parish that will nourish you, is certainly the easy way out but wrongheaded theologically, practically and pastorally–indeed, it is protestant in its approach.

    Armstrong: Not if one takes what Vatican II taught about Protestantism (Decree of Ecumenism) seriously.

    Comment: I would submit to you that to frame the question as "Lukewarm Catholic or on-fire Protestant" is to imply that we must choose between one error or another. The answer is neither.

    Armstrong: That juxtaposition was designed to bring the reader in and to pique his interest (as all good writers and journalists try to do). Ultimately, as I stated above, Stan views it as a "both/and" scenario, not "either/or."

    Comment: Why sacrifice truth for entertainment? Spark up the fire!

    Armstrong: Of course, this is unfair to Protestants, to sum up their Christianity in such an insulting way. But it is also unfair to Stan, because he is not arguing for forsaking Catholic truth (let alone the Holy Eucharist) for Protestant lies or "entertainment" but rather, to supplement Catholic truth with Protestant (at bottom, and ultimately, Catholic) truth. Apples and oranges . . .

    Comment: And, yes, most evangelicals – at least those trained in running women's groups or organizing Bible studies – are trained in how to pull Catholics out of the Church.

    Armstrong: I think that is a gross exaggeration. Most evangelicals — sad to say — scarcely understand their own distinctive beliefs enough to be able to persuasively defend them, let alone pulling Catholics away from theirs. It certainly does happen, but it is not by any means "most" evangelicals.

    It's undeniable that Catholics have failed to a great degree in fostering the sort of "extra-curricular" activities, Bible studies, small groups, Sunday school, prayer groups, outreaches, youth groups, etc., that Protestants have done very good at. I don't even think that's arguable, as a generalization. There are always exceptions, of course. Stan is arguing (and I agree, wholeheartedly, and I have devoted my life to defending the Catholic Church and her teachings, and so can't be accused of not doing that): "learn from where our Protestant brethren do good things right, and successfully." It has nothing to do with compromise, and everything to do with intelligence and wisdom in promulgating the faith and raising Catholic disciples to transform the world.

    Lastly, Stan made it a point to say that one mustn't forsake the Eucharist. That wasn't the issue. It was whether a Catholic can supplement Mass attendance with participation in largely wonderful Protestant activities. He wrote:

    "We want to be careful never to ever encourage any Catholic to ever leave the sacraments. But at this point in his life, Ted may be using the right reason to get closer to God."

    That's not praising someone who stopped going to Mass. One must understand his argument in its context. He is saying that people may have right reasons in a limited, non-exclusionary sense, to attend Protestant functions. Note the phrase, "at this point in his life", too, which means that Stan agreed only in a qualified sense. He makes it very clear that no Catholic should replace the Mass with something else. He wrote:

    "Never stop attending Mass . . ."

    "To supplement your spiritual life, if a vibrant Catholic Bible study and/or small group are not available, attend an Evangelical Bible Study or prayer group . . ."

    And he makes it clear that we are also giving something to our Protestant brethren, too:

    "As you fellowship with Protestants, prepare yourself to humbly and accurately defend the teachings of the Catholic Church."

    As for general Catholic teaching on the spiritual status of Protestantism, here is what Vatican II states:

    Decree on Ecumenism (<i>Unitatis Redintegratio</i>, 21 November 1964)

    — Emphases added throughout —

    . . . in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared . . . for which, often enough, men of BOTH SIDES were to blame. However, one CANNOT CHARGE WITH THE SIN OF SEPARATION those who at present are born into these communities and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with RESPECT and AFFECTION as BROTHERS. For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. (3)

    all who have been justified by faith in baptism are INCORPORATED INTO CHRIST [footnote cites Council of Florence, Session 8, from the year 1439]; they therefore have a right to be called CHRISTIANS, and with good reason are accepted as BROTHERS by the children of the Catholic Church. (3)

    Moreover, some, even very many, of the most significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist OUTSIDE the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. ALL of these . . . COME FROM CHRIST and lead back to him . . . (3)

    the separated Churches and communions as such . . . have been by no means deprived of significance and IMPORTANCE IN THE MYSTERY OF SALVATION. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as a MEANS OF SALVATION which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church. (3)

    The sacred Council exhorts, therefore, all the Catholic faithful to recognize the signs of the times and take an active and intelligent part in the work of ecumenism. (4)

    Catholics must gladly acknowledge and esteem the TRULY CHRISTIAN ENDOWMENTS for our common heritage which are to be found among our separated brethren. It is right and salutary to recognize the RICHES OF CHRIST and virtuous works in the lives of others who are BEARING WITNESS TO CHRIST, sometimes even to the shedding of their blood. (4)

    Nor should we forget that anything WROUGHT BY THE GRACE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT in the hearts of our separated brethren can <b>CONTRIBUTE TO OUR OWN EDIFICATION</b>. Whatever is TRULY CHRISTIAN is never contrary to what GENUINELY BELONGS TO THE FAITH; indeed, it can always bring a more perfect realization of the very mystery of Christ and the Church. (4)

    . . . all Christians, since they bear the seal of Christ's name. Cooperation among Christians vividly expresses that bond which already unites them . . . Through such cooperation, all believers in Christ are able to learn easily how they can understand each other better and esteem each other more, and how the road to the unity of Christians may be made smooth. (12)

    By the sacrament of Baptism . . . man becomes truly incorporated into the crucified and glorified Christ and is reborn to a sharing of the divine life [cites Romans 6:4] . . . Baptism, therefore, constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn. (22)

    The Christian way of life of these brethren is nourished by faith in Christ. It is strengthened by the grace of baptism and the hearing of the Word of God. This way of life expresses itself in private prayer, in meditation on the scriptures, in the life of a Christian family, and in the worship of a community gathered together to praise God. Furthermore, their worship sometimes displays notable features of a liturgy once shared in common. The faith by which they believe in Christ bears fruit in praise and thanksgiving for the benefits received from the hands of God. Joined to it is a lively sense of justice and a true charity toward others. This active faith has been responsible for many organizations for the relief of spiritual and material distress, the furtherance of education of youth, the improvement of social conditions of life, and the promotion of peace throughout the world. (23)

    [cf. CCC, #790-791]

    [Thanks, Dave. — Stan Williams]

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    Joe,

    I don't see how Matthew 10:32-33 defines Church.

    "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

    Nor do I see the relevance to Church in Matthew 7:21-23

    "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

    Matthew 8:11 may include those in the Church but it is not definitive of what Church is…

    I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven.

    In Christ,

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

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    Joe,

    Forgive me, I see where your last two Scripture references were meant for reflection not as definition of Church…

    May I also add that when you write:

     but I am still very sure that I am a Southern Baptist in my daily practice of being Christian.  However, I am not as inclined to worry if a Catholic is "saved" as perhaps others are and recognize that the Liturgy and teachings of the Catholic Church is every bit as valid as anything a Protestant would use.  Sure there are differences in theology/practive but that is merely a call to practice "brotherly love," don't ya think?

    Do you mean to say that, because there are diffences, we are called to practice "brotherly love"?

    If a Southern Baptist{is there any other Baptist? ;o} – a line from the movie Blue Chip, I believe} does not recognize the Body and Blood and Soul and Divinity of the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist, then with all love and charity, come home brother and enjoy the banquet that He has provided for you until He returns.

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

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    To Promised Land: my dear, if I offended you, I apologize most profoundly.  That was far from my intention–which was, actually, to support Kathy Nelligan. 

    The caps were a way of reinforcing information she might find useful with her family.  (And, yes, I tend to talk in CAPS!  Wink).  The exclamation marks are for the same reason. 

    If I seem to express a certain "hardness", again, I apologize and will reflect on that.  My family gives me unending grief over my faith, and yes, I have gotten quite hard with them (it seems to be the only way to stop them hounding me).  They were all Catholics at one point and, for their own reasons, have rejected the Church.  But, the Church (i.e., my faith) is where I live: it's where I am nourished, it's the air I breathe.  If anyone–friend, foe, or family–attempts to put a pillow over my face to smother me, you bet I'm going to fight. 

    As for discussing John 6, I'm going to give you my off-post email address, and I invite you to use it.  However, the only question I would have for you is, if you truly believe in Sola Scriptura, why don't you do what He tells you?

    With deepest apologies (and in lower case), cluscomb@earthlink.net

     

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    David,

     

    First off, I LOVE that comment about being a Baptist.  I mean, that is why we often cannot discuss things in our world today, few can take a good hearted joke about anything.  It is good that you have a sense of humor.

     

    Second, my comments were meant to have us look at Scripture and think that all is not as it appears sometimes.  How many times do any of us pick up a newspaper and read of either televangelists being investigated, priest's creating scandal for Catholics, or God knows what and we forget also that just because someone does not wear their faith on their sleeve that they are not really Christian. 

     

    Third, regarding brotherly love, I am referring to the fact that all of us are here, right now, claiming to be Christians and in the past how much time/energy/effort has been wasted and not applied to fulfillment of the Great Commission over semantics?  Now when there is a legitimate issue for debate that is different but even then we can agree to disagree and stay focused on Christ. 

     

    Some other points to reflect upon.  I think this debate is as it is because there is so much Biblical ILLITERACY and many Christians simply do not know the Word much less their own religious beliefs.  If a Catholic is led of God to become a Baptist or even a Methodist who are we to judge that?  The same goes for a Baptist finding their true faith in Catholicism.  Now, I am not talking being a Buddhist or Muslim or God knows what but about Christianity only here.  The Catholic Church has a specific and designated responsibility of being the, "deposit of Faith."  That being said, it is incumbent upon Catholics to know their beliefs and be proud of it.  However, that does not negate the work of the Almighty to just the Catholic Church.  We have two millenia of Christian history to draw from and perhaps we should start doing that for our third millenia. 

     

    I hope this all makes sense.

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    Joe,

    Thank you for your kind reply. I think every person on earth should be required to study the Bible at some point in their schooling, or lifetime, and then watch out, because the Spirit of God will take over from there!

    As for the debate, I think it rests on private interpretation, semantics and the almighty dollar. While I can appreciate that Martin Luther and Calvin requested reform and did not get the result they desired, others within the reformation saw an opportunity to divide and conquer.

    Martin Luther loved the Blessed Mother and the Blessed Eucharist.

    John Calvin disagreed on some doctrinal points and the rest, as they say, is history. Thousands upon thousands of Christian communities later, who perceives victory?

    As a point of interest, the only institution that has survived since Christ's death and resurrection is the Catholic Church. No other sect, denomination or orthodoxy can lay claim to Jesus' words, "Thou art Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against thee."

    In Christ,

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

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    David,

     

    Concerning the church-you may want to ask the Orthrox believers about that but then again, that is why we are on here anyhow.  I think that it would serve all Christians well were we in 2007, to not be so quick to look back but at where we can go for the future.  Catholics and Protestants are never going to agree about the past but what we can do is work on the present and hope for the future. 

     

    When I examine the differences between Catholicism and non-Catholic Christianity, I am of the opinion that there are legitimate concerns abut faith. Problem is that Catholics have never forgive Luther and Protestants won't accept that Catholics are "saved."  What matters though is whether we know the Christ as our Redeemer and should we agree on that point there is always hope for Christian unity. 

     

    I never knew how serious it was for a Catholic to take communion only within a Catholic Church.  Knowing that now I can "walk a mile in your shoes" and try to frame the issue better.  Yet, I would hope that a Catholic would try to see that if I take communion in a Southern Baptist church, that perhaps it is legitimate too.  The key is for all of us to recognize that this is a serious issue, one that needs real dialogue and respect about it.

     

     

    Joseph Bailey

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    Joe,

     You wrote: Catholics and Protestants are never going to agree about the past…

    That is sad, because the past is our unification.

    Tell me, brother, how does a Southern Baptist approach communion in their house of worship?

    In Christ,

     

    Remember, the Sun is always shining!

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