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The Incoherence of Atheism, Part 3

 There are, according to St. Thomas, only two arguments against the existence of God.

The first, translated into modern lingo, means: "Bad stuff happens, so God doesn't exist."  The second says, "Everything seems to work fine without God, so He's not there."

Most "scientific" attempts to argue for atheism (such as Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and or Daniel Dennett's Breaking the Spell) rely on the second argument to claim that human beings and their religions are, like everything else, a product of the same purposeless natural forces of matter and energy that gave us the beetle and the paramecium.  The problem is that, by the materialist's own logic, "everything else" also includes the human mind and means that the free human mind is, ultimately, an illusion.  What we call "reason" is, in a materialist universe, the consequence of the physical-law-bound motion of molecules in our brains, according to atheists such as William Provine, a professor of biological science at Cornell University.  The first consequence of this is that there is a self-contradiction embedded in trying to persuade somebody that religion should be abandoned, for persuasion presumes real freedom.

Beyond this, atheists try to use not only the materialist argument that "Nature causes Mind", but also the moralist argument that evil exists and that, furthermore, its greatest source is theism itself.  Atheist literature is thick with denunciations of the moral evils of theism and with appeals to abandon this enslaving priestcraft for the liberating heights of Reason.  In short, atheism tends not only to assume that reason is intrinsically free, it assumes reason can be freely and even perversely misused by cunning religionists.  Atheists do not merely claim that Reason is the force that will liberate us from the shackles of Nature (by freeing us from the naturally evolved delusion that God exists).  They also blame theists for doing bad things in ways they do not blame other creatures.  Tapeworms and televangelists both exploit other creatures, but atheists only blame the televangelists.

In short, the very act of denying that humans have a supernatural element to them affirms we are higher than tapeworms, and capable of free moral acts of both good and evil that no other creature can conceive.  It assumes our thoughts are not simply caused by nature as the motions of animals are, but that they are grounded in something higher.  That something is what theology calls the rational soul.

However, atheists like Dawkins are not eager acknowledge this self-contradiction.  Instead, they plunge further on into more self-contradiction.  And so, having just made the case that religion is the product of natural evolutionary forces that tend to make for the biological success of homo sapiens, they simultaneously argue that religion is a naturally evolved blight that will surely doom homo sapiens. Only by listening to Dawkins, Dennett and Co. — who refer to themselves as "Brights" to distinguish themselves from the "Dims" who believe in God — may we be saved. 

Yet, on their own evolutionary accounting, what basis do we have for thinking that Dawkins, Dennett and the "New Atheists" have evolved beyond the religious herd of humanity and point the way to biological, much less spiritual, health for the human species? 

Curiously, Dawkins and Co. explain all this, not with science (which is about the business of quantifying matter and energy and their effects) but by inventing invisible pixies called "memes" and claiming that they cause religion.  By a complex series of handwavings and incantations, they argue that these "memes" have, in the case of religion, led directly to the survival of the unfit (namely, belief in God) and that Brights have magically escaped the influence of these Bad Memes that nobody has ever seen, smelt, heard, tasted or measured.  And because Brights have out-evolved the rest of us meme-enslaved theists, they are qualified to argue that the State should be allowed to take children away from parents who hold the "wrong" sorts of religious beliefs and pass along these invisible memes.

Given that nobody has yet been able to actually see a "meme", I think it might be worth asking how we know they exist, much less guarantee the superiority of Dawkins, Dennett et al to the rest of the gene pool. Might it not be that atheists such as Dawkins and Dennett are not the Next Phase in Evolution but rather mutants doomed to extinction? Suppose the reality is not that they see better and therefore possess an evolutionary advantage, but that they are blind to what most humans can see and are therefore doomed evolutionary dead ends?

For, on a purely Darwinian accounting, it would rather appear that religious people, who believe in the sanctity of life and have more children than the secular atheists, are, by every scientific measure, the winners — even in this life.  And if atheism's account of things can be that self-contradictory when it comes to earthly things, what of heavenly ones?

(This piece was first published in the National Catholic Register.)

Comments

50 responses to “The Incoherence of Atheism, Part 3”

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    Oh yeah?  My memes can beat up Dawkin's memes!

     

    Smile

     

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    To Mark : You correctly criticize the meme theory. However, proponents of neurobiology ( this includes the allied fields neurophilosophy, evolutionsist social biology, compuational neuroanatomy/physiology, et. al) employ non-meme thories that are more scientifically based in order to make many of the sdame conclusions. I refer you to a recent work by Paul Churchland, Neyrophilosophy At Work. So on meme you are thumbs up. On everything else you flunk! (1). Again, your entire essay stands or falls on the notion of " free human mind." The concept is but a conflation of self with the act of fixing choice. It reverts to the faculty view of mind. A long past relic.The delusion of free will originates in a real neurophysiological perception,however, owing to the "pause" we all experience as we deliberate and ponder things, all the while we now know that thousands of synaptic recurrent parallel circuits are competing for ascendency in the brain, this being largely the workings of a complex unconscious cognition. (2)Your allied critique of reason – that the so called atheistic view is commmited to denying reason because matter can't think – is once again a reversion to an atoms in the void , primitive view of matter you would like to ascribe to  Dennett and Dawkins et. al. . But no curent physicist or philosophy sees matter this way. Rather, the almost irreducibly toti potential and elusiveness of matter is what capivates current thinking on the matter. When you foist your simplistic, outmoded views upon your enemies and deploy this view in butressing of your own aganda…well what can one say ! (3) Reason is now known to be a product of cognition, both unconscious and conscious. It is a brain function of certain specific computational synaptic skills, both hard-wired and acquired. It does not reside in a heavenly abode, at least THAT claim can only be dogmatically asserted, believed, and not well argued. ( 4). Your turn to the theodicy question is just a question-begging assertion in the end. Ultimately, theists are saddled with reconciling God with evident evil especially natural disasters. The answer will always revolve around God's ultimate providemce, the value of suffering, and Fall.  Atheists are right to ask of us an explanation. Besides, from their view, one needs somehow a plausible explanation that reconciles belief in God and the transformation of His children into Christlike persons with the more evident horrid Christian historical legacy. What horrors have been done in His name. This can not be glossed by a set of platitudes. (5). Finally Mark, I would like to draw your attention to a type of argument that I am leraning is almost ubiquitous in your presentations.  It is a type of weak transcentdal argument that runs as folows : since we all know there is more-than-mere-matter, and we know there is morality [of the narrowly defined species of morality that presupposes God], and we all know there is free reason,then there must be free will and God. All  of this is embarassingly circular.

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    Mark addendum: There is no positive value in calling atheists incoherent even if it could be well argued that they are which it can not. They would not convert by argument alone, nor will our reconciliation with them and sharing their often very good values and moral visions be advanced but rather eclipsed by attempting to do so. There is a great number of good humanists out there with whom we need to ally ourselves including our affections. We need to know their perspectives. Again, our own superanatural beleifs are not at all rational, so it is no surprise that we experience their annoyance at us as [some of us] persist in assailing their irationality and incoherence which also is unfouded anyway. As to the human brain, I am in greatful awe and wonder at what the Creator has wrought! Thanks.

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    Hi lwall, good to see you again in this third installment of your contentions with the word "incoherent" being applied to atheists. I would like to address your addendum.

    "Incoherent" means, according to the dictionary, "without logical or meaningful connection; disjointed; rambling." As a computer scientist and mathematician, I have a good understanding of and appreciation for logic myself (and I only use this "resume" as a precursor to qualify the following opinion), and I believe that Mr. Shea has used an accurate term to describe the inconsistent arguments of atheists that he has outlined in his articles. You cannot have it both ways: everything–including thought, morality, etc.–cannot be both randomly and materially derived AND objectively and morally absolute (in the sense that there are "right" and "wrong" ideas/thoughts/codes of behavior). You have to take your pick. If you choose both, as these atheists in question try to do, then you have an undeniable contradiction within your belief system that is quite blatantly "incoherent."

    This is not to say that all of the arguments/questions posed by all atheists are illogical, or that atheists themselves are irrational. No one is saying that at all. Atheists are rational beings with valid questions, and we must respect that. Moreover, we are obliged to answer such questions as an act of charity with the intent of leading the atheist to Truth–even if this involves pointing out the "incoherence" of his arguments. (If someone told me, "No, actually 1+1= 2, not 1," I would thank him for correcting me.)

    I have a question for you. Why would an atheist not convert by argument alone? Does not an atheist rely on his own reasoning to deduce that there is no God? Why, then, would he not even be willing to consider that the "holes" in his "logic" might mean that he is wrong? Is it possible that there is more to being an atheist than simply deducing that God doesn't exist–ie, dare we claim that atheists have motives for wanting God not to exist? And if so, what would that say about their arguments? Or is that simply "immaterial"? (Sorry for the bad pun, couldn't resist.)

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    Candeo: Mark's argument holds only if his premises are true which they are not. E.G. his view of matter,free will, the faculty psychology of mind, and free reason lare wrong, incomplete, and outmoded and they expediently for Mark load the deck against the atheists. But his concepts are in error and not are not widely attribuatable to most philosopphical atheists including Dennett and Dawkins. Further, your attempt to confine morality to the absolute and the objective- without which you will say there is no morality – is merely one view of morality and reduces your claim morality to an unargued dogmatic assertion. Conversion is NOT a matter of reaching a correct conclusion to a presumably valid argument, that is why. Again, there is no incoherency in atheism or any of what Shea proffers as such. I would be happy to expound on all of this. Besides, incoherence, illogic, and irrationality are best located in Christian beliefs and horrid C. legacy which none of you seem willing to address.

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        I would just like to make a short statement that may avoid the long series of debate here that is mostly fruitless.  The biggest issue here that makes true debate difficult is that very few atheists agree among themselves.  This means that Mr. Shea's arguement may fit correctly a certain group of atheists while Iwall's disagrement may be valid because he is talking about another group of atheists. 

       This in general is the difficult task in front of any Catholic apologist.  Catholics have a clear set of defined beliefs (maybe not all of them follow them or have followed them but they are clear), whereas most other religious groups (evangelicals, fundamentalists, atheists, etc.) have a myriad of beliefs that alter slightly among each Church or in the case of atheists among each author and his like thinkers.  So while it is quite easy for them to say such and such thing and apply it to all Catholics, when I have debated with a member of any of these groups and shown them a truely incoherent part of their arguement they simply say that that is not what they in particular believe or in this case that the particular set of atheists which they know are not that way.

        We could sit here and discuss this all day but in the end it seems to me whatever arguement is made by either side will be uneffective because you cannot group atheists into a certain set of beliefs like you can Catholics.  To have a real discussion it must be made clear what particular aspect of atheism we are discussing and talk about that particular belief. 

      In the end, this is the most incoherent aspect of rational atheists (as a whole), that if in fact they are all so rational why do they have so much trouble even convincing other atheists to all believe the same thing.

     

    God Bless,

     

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    Very well-put, Mr. Stengel.

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    Stengel: Well, your last statement could equally apply also to Catholics who, despite clear cut doctrine, believe a myriad of things. It could also apply as well as to other Christains. Now as to your overarall point: Naturally we must address each specific atheist. But there is a general shared common view against which we Catholics must inevitably abut.  The question of finitude and historicism: can one well argue for the existence of a supernatural dimension and claim knowledge of "something else"…God or noumenal reality? As good old Kant tried to demonstrate in the First Critique, "No knowledge of another is world possible, yet it must be posited in thought." Furthermore, this question is a piece with the question of God and thereby without which no serious mutually respecting debate with atheists can happen. The queston of God and the coherence of any argument for or against greatly turns upon one's capacity to argue well the limits of human knowledge and truth claims. Neither side proffers any knock- down drag- out argument that only a fool or a stubborn sinner could refuse. In fact, as I have stated, we seem to have cornered the market on utterly irrational and incompehensible premises in our beliefs in Incarnation, transubsatantiation, Resurrection. However, I do not believe we are the worse off for this, but in fact our repositiry of irrational C. beliefs is something we should embrace and not shy away from. I am thinking with Matthias Scheeben on this – mystery.The effort to demonstarte irrationality and incoherence in atheism and Christianity of couse must be carried out, but most instances of this attempt are confusedly concerned with a mutual misunderstanding of positions, or the foisting concepts upon the other which are alien to his/her actual claims, as with Mark's article. See my previous posts today. Thanks. 

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    Jesus the Christ said "You shall know them by their fruits". In the past 100 years atheists like Marx, Lenin, Mao, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Fidel and countless other "enlightened" egomaniacal fiends have inflicted millions of innocents; murdering 3 times the amount of people currently living in Canada. Explain to me exactly what followers of Christ have done during the same time span which is comparable? 

     

    "Atheists are right to ask of us an explanation."

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    As Bishop Sheen has pointed out , it's not so much that atheists deny

    the existence of God, but they seek to "defy" Him.  Could this be a

    rational explanation for their actions?

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        You are right to say that the same could be said about Catholics in the fact that they cannot agree, but this cannot be said about Catholicism as it is a set of finite beliefs.  There is no such set of beliefs for atheists which is the reason I feel it is virtually impossible to have a truly concrete discussion with most as it is very hard to pin down which of the myriad of belief sets held by atheists the particular atheist with whom you are speaking holds.  This is the point I was making which is not necessarily an attack on atheists but really more so simply commenting that it is virtually impossible to have a real debate with them.

        Also, in general I take a very serious offense in people using the actions of certain supposed believers of a religion and using this as argument against the religion.  This is a tactic so often used against Christianity by people who cannot think of any real attack against what Christianity teaches, so they use an example of someone who quite obviously was not Christian as a quite silly way to attack our beliefs.  Also the most offensive part of this tactic is that they ignore the 100 times more frequent examples of the heroic Christians and Catholics who for some really incoherent reason are not allowed to be used to argue in our favor.  The history of the Church is 99% beautiful and heroic and the few examples of corruption are usually examples of political figures abusing the Chruch along with the rest of the people. 

        Cite to me examples of this horrid history you keep mentioning.  If you want to mention the typical ones such as the Crusades, Inquisition, etc. I will simply refer you to the end of my previous paragraph.  None of these had full Vatican consent and all were simply power tactics used by political figures.  More reason for arguement against theocracy than Catholicism. 

          This tactic is often used today to argue against Islam by using the example of what some Islamic terrorists are doing and then using this as an arguement against Islam.  Once again this is an arguement against theocracy and against terrorism, but not against Islam as none of the tenents of Islam are mentioned.  Furthermore, as others have pointed out the history of atheists and their wars is much much worse.  In the atheists defense, I disagree with using this as a tactic against atheism as well since as you have effectively pointed out these people were crazy and do not fit the type of atheists that you are talking about.  However, the examples of our "horrid history" that you could give me are examples of people who are not exactly Christian either.

     

    God Bless,

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    To Lazar: A few points points. (1). Atheism is not a program with a preset agenda. It is a denial. It prescribes not world view a priori. (2). Ascribing causation to any specific world view is a very uncertain business. Thus, how to say the above rogues did their nasty work because of their atheism. Are you willing to look at the long legacy of the Church and acribe the untold numbers of horrid deeds done by believers "in the name of Jesus" to belif in God? As to "the same time span"? Doesn't this cut both ways…to say that Christianity has had two thousand years to get it right and still…!!! 

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    Yet another person who believes that we don't exist is Steven Pinker of Harvard. Check out this article on how we are merely an illusion.

    http://romancatholicinfo.com/catholic-news/you-are-an-illusion/

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    Reply to Stengel's 4:36p.m. post:I disagree that the Church's legacy is "99% beautiful." We may be reading diffrerent history, I don't know. Bur a belief that professes to transform people ito christ like figures would evidently not be the engineof so much large scale horror as pogroms by the thousands aimed specifically at death and terrorizing European Jewry, the Inquisition and Counterreformation, Holocaust, and countless acts of prejudice, patent injustices, little acts of hatred, racial bigotry through the ages, the drawing of pernicious and invidious distinctions…..ad nauseum. And it is a gloss to say that the People of God – which is what I mean when I say Church including the hierarchical Church – have been played and manipulated by opportunists leaders. The Crusades were finaced and given religious justification by the Church, my friend! As to history, I refer you to the book, Constantines Sword by Carroll. A great and eye- opening read! By the way, John Paul II did not offer an apology to the Jews for naught.We were at grave fault! Also,by the way, there have been many beautiful things done by atheists too! What is really challenging is to ask and attempt to answer whether lack of belief in God inexorably leads to a certain generic set of practices, desires, and beliefs. If this could be shown to be true and the set of beliefs demonstated by atheists were shown to be incompatible with Christian beliefs, then one might more strongly argue the point that atheism is "bad." But how would one go about this project? Would we conduct a survey of "n" number of atheists and Christians then compare and contrast beliefs and actions? If we did this rather crude empirical test, do you think there would be a significant difference between the groups? What would we say if no significant difference between the grouops were found? What list of Christian beliefs, practices, and desires would you include on the list? I will stop here although there is much to follow. Thanks. Later, I hope.

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    You have once again misread my post I did not in any instance say that members of the Church have done things wrong nor did I say we should not apologize for what they have done.  What I said is that this has absolutely no bearing on the validity of the religion.  I totally agree that there have been mistakes made.  There has been a much larger amount of great popes and heroes from the Church it is just not interesting to put that in history books or to talk about it.  It is much easier to say the Crusades was promoted by the Church then to say that it was promoted by certaain power hungry non-Christian members of the Church.  Once again though I am not trying to defend the history as neither I nor anyone else really knows what happened, I am simply stating that this is a silly way to attack the Church as it cuts both ways and can be used just as "effectively" against atheists.  You cannot attack certain aspects of our history and then say their history does not matter.  I simply say that neither do and it is a cheap attack.  Attack the beliefs not the actions of un-believers.

     

    God bless

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    Stengel: Oh, I agree totally. This has been my point exactly, that one cannot claim atheism caused this or Christianity caused that because ascribing causation is multifactorial, far too complex, and depends upon a host of variant contingent factors. When I say, "Look at the legacy of the Church!", however, you must surely admit that much wrong has been done in the professed albeit mistaken and explicit self-conscious belief that it was carried out for His sake. I doubt you can point out the same for atheism, that is, an explicit reference to "And this I am doing for sake of my rejection of God!" As mentioned, atheism entails no specific agenda. Christianity obviously does. Which brings up the corollary question to my previously posed question [ see previous post]. This question would be, " Does religion inexorably spawn a type of ferocity and hyperbolic belief which all too easily and all too often issues in violence?" World history attests to an affirmative answer. Now,by the way, Stengel, you did not address my question in my last post.     

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    "Does religion inexorably spawn a type of ferocity and hyperbolic belief which all too easily and all too often issues in violence?"

    The short answer to your question I believe is yes. The simple reason is because there is a devil.=

    The devil is the enemy of truth and goodness. Nothing brings him greater pleasure then to do two things:

    1) deceive people into following him because they think he is the truth

    2) deceive people who are following the truth in a way that deprives whatever good they may be attempting to do of having truly good affect.

    The atheist if not of as much interest for the devil then the religious man for two reasons.

    1) he is not as useful for convincing that what is good is in fact bad , because he claims that neither exist.

    2) he has no true inclination for good that he expresses so there is no need to overcome his attempt to do good.

    Another way of looking at it is this the devil has a goal of keeping people from loving God. The atheist doesn't love God so he isn't very useful in making God look like a bad option. He himself already does not love God so there isn't much the devil doesn't need to do anything to get the atheist to where he wants him to be.

     

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    The problem with attempting to debate whether atheism or Christianity is good or bad relative to the other is the fact that in order to have a cogent debate on any topic certain items must be stipulated by both sides.  If one side or other unilaterally rejects those items the debate is over before it starts.

     

    Atheism will never stipulate the existence of God and His disposition toward goodness and love.

     

    Christianity will never stipulate there is no God. 

     

    Atheism and Christianity are diametrically opposed and therefor any debate arguing the relative merits of either in light of the other is a fruitless task. 

     

    Now we address the question — is atheism in and of itself bad or evil?  I believe the answer is – "not necessarily." I base that on Paul's statement that even the heathen who does know Jesus Christ, but lives his life as if he did know Christ, is justified by his actions.  Substitute atheist for heathen and you arrive at my position.  (I am not meaning to imply that all heathens are atheists.  I am merely quoting Pauline text).

     Our Mother Church teaches that no person does any good deed without its being inspired by the Holy Spirit.  Therefor if atheists do good works, they do them only by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.  They merely are unaware it is the Holy Spirit working in them. So, if an atheist is merely an atheist because she or he simply does not or cannot know better, her or his atheism may or may not be inherently bad or evil or wrong.

     

    On the other hand, if a person is an atheist simply because he or she has decided to reject the idea of the existence of God, despite the powerful evidence of His existence, his or her atheism is probably bad.

     

    However, I must state that my analysis above is based on my beliefs and upbringing as a bred and born Southside Irish Catholic! 

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    One point I thought Mark was going to make but did not.  I find it intriguing that many atheist evolutionists are quick to point out that people have a need to explain the unexplainable with religion.  The obvious question is: why is that?  Natural selection would seem to favor people seeking scientific explanation for the unknown, not a desire to explain the unknown with the supernatural.  Yet we all agree that humanity by and large seeks the supernatural to explain the unexplainable.  But this would seem to point to a God that created us that way, not natural selection.

     

    Now as for the argument about terror done in the name of religion or in the name of atheism (which communism and social Darwinism could rightly be accused of since atheism is central to their doctrines).  There is no doubt that people have been hurt and even killed in the name of Christianity.  Hundreds killed in the protestant reformation in England.  Thousands killed in witch hunts.  Probably an order or two of magnitude more than that in the crusades.  But all of these pale in comparison to the killings done in the name of godlessness in the 20th century: easily over 100 MILLION dead.  While Christians are not perfect, history can be shown Christianity to act as a natural "brake" on evil behaviors that atheism simply lacks altogether.  And while the atheists can argue these were all "crazy people" – yep every single member of the nazi party, red army, etc. – I personally find it hard to believe.  There were simply too many people involved in the exterminations to all be crazy.  And as for the crazy ones, well then I will claim that everyone who ever committed a violent act in the name of Christ is crazy too.

     

    While I will freely admit that belief in the incarnation, resurrection, transubstantiation are irrational, let's not let atheists off the hook too easy.  They too have equally irrational beliefs:

    – matter and energy came into being out of nothing "naturally"

    – life came into being once a long time ago.  We haven't a clue how it occurred, but we have it on faith that it occurred naturally in some "primoridal soup"

     

    Candeo: If a computer scientist said that 1+1= 1, they might be right!

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    To Jay Reilly: Atheists and Christians can discuss things although, yes, it is fruitless to argue who is right and who is wrong on the question of God and metaphysics. It is equally fruitless- as painfully demonstrated by Shea's attempt to do so in the series " Incoherence I,II, and III" – to expose the supposed irrationality and incoherence of atheism.In Shea's case it ends up biting him in the behind. I watched in utter amazement how this unfolded! We can fruitfully dialogue where fruitfully means that kind of dialogue issuing in the advancement of shared, actual, concrete goods. For if we would only prescind from all supernatural language, we would then find very much topic moral commonality about this life,here and now – which is part of the meaning of Kingdom of God, just not the hereafter – how to get more justice, less greed, better employment, better education, more leisure, domestic and world peace, ecological sanity and health et.al. In order for this dialogue to bear fruit – and here is a crucial insight – we don't need first to converge on our personal groundings or justifications, agree on the origins of life, the nature of matter, or the question of free will, or any "metaphysical" terms in order to carry out this very human dialogue. To carry out such a [ social, communitarian ] dialogue would be to create a better world, a wider solidarity, broader sentiment amonst classes ,and a more expansive sentimentality which John Dewey [ atheist] thought was essential to the flourishing of our democracy. Dewey was right in saying that sometimes bad Christianity can eclipse this potential fruit by fostering a sense of superiority, by directing one's attention heavenwards and away from actual concrete concerns [ "He is so heavenly minded that he is no earthly good!"], by fostering prejudice against other-than Christian literature, on and on. And Dewey has a point. These same dispositions and attitudes – the advancing free dialogue of commonly shared values and vision, sensitivity, etc see above – define Dewey's vision of what he called "our  civic religion." We as Catholics can come to that dialogue as more effective and visionary participants when we are being transformed by the Holy Spirit particulary by a growth in the Beatitudes. Poverty of spirit – in which I realize that it's not all about me and all about God and other – which helps reshape my otherwise self-centered tendencies and narrowness of vision. But the Beatitudes are not the only way of self- renunciation, poverty of spirit, growing towards a wider less self- centered ethic and vision. Exposure to extra -Biblical and extra -Traditional literature, art, philosophy, reportage, and journalisim can highlight for us and atheist alike certain moral and religious relevances otherwise unoticed us. Atheists also would benefit from reading Scipture. We augment our moral vision thereby, and we see Christ more deeply and clearly for we as Catholics know that His will and spirit work everywhere.  Now the point I wish to make : Given the above considerations, there is no good but only negative value in writing articles as Mark Shea does. A sort of quippy, pseudo-intellectual genre of  "I gotcha' articles!". For some reason, he insists on doing this from time to time. I believe he is capable of much finer intellection. I believe this type of writing is morally irresponsible. Oh well! Your comment that atheists are capable of good is correct and in line with Catholic teaching. I wish others on this sometimes ignorant website knew this. But let's step back and recall that the original topic here is Shea's "Incoherence 3" theme to which my earlier post lent a death blow by showing that Mark's premises are wrong thus his conclusions necessarily must be wrong. See above. Besides, I wonder what are Mark's motives, that is, what does he wish to accomplish? 

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    To Mark Shea and Gary T. et. al :  You both should read my above post for a mini-summary of my thinking. I have called the conclusions reached in the "Incoherence" series not only logically invalid because the premises are wrong [ just why they are wrong is argued in earlier posts], but also a type morally irresponsible writing because fostering attitudes of hostility and rejection while at the same time fostering- either intentionally or inadvertently- an attitude of non-dialogue with and prejudice towards certain human beings called atheists. I can see no positive outcome of such a [poorly] argued attack. I see only the drawing up of another invidious distinction between "us good and aspiring holy ones" and "those evil and sinful ones". Unfortunately, the mini-series took precious little care to admonish against painting atheists with such a broad brush. I wish that Mark could somehow recue his [ sometimes naive and gullible ] readership from all this. I will not hold my breath! To Gary : Realize that this human tendency to the supernatural may indeed be hard -wired. We humans seem to have the capacity for wanting explanations for all finite, space/time phenomena. However, the urge seeks not only explanations for all finite phenomena "here and now' but the urge also spirals out of control, so to speak, in seeking  One Big Explanation For It. Seeks a Invisible Cause and Explanation For It All. If you know Immanuel Kant, you then know how he beautifully developed this very tendency and penchant of Pure Reason in his First Critique. Now, if this tendency is indeed hard wired, as Kant and some neuro/evolutionsts believe, we humans can not so easily,willy-nilly strip that out of our brain cortices so to speak. It may very well take another million years to de-select this human urge to the supernatural, to the One Expanation Of IT All. However, the point is ,Gary, that the mere presence of this urge does not argue well for there being any such supernatural reality out there to which it refers. Not every synaptic connection/framework refers to an extra-mental reality! We have the synaptic framework for all sorts of imagined unreal things, for example. Now, the urge to the suprernatural must have evolved because of some benefit to the human species. But, again, benefit to the species – say by a belief in God – does not mean that there is a God out there, or in here, or in reality anywhere. Human benefit from a belief in or urge towards ONE GRAND EXPLANATION CALLED GOD may indeed accrue to the species, however, by functioning adaptively as a synaptic locus that  generates certain ameliorating internal feeling states when thinking and believing " God, goodness, eternal life, blessedness, etc." By generating such feelings as hope in desparate circumstances, metaphysical consolation as we speed head long towards death, a rhyme and reason to suffering, the blessedness of soul accruing from being moral and following God's will, etc, etc. However, many now see this benefit to the race as waning in its adaptive efficacy and even as  inimical to the advancement of the race at large. We must listen to this voice in order to see what might hold true there. We can, however, continue as Christians as we do this listening. There have been many Christians as well as atheists speaking a critical voice to us over the ages. One good example is Soren Kierk. There are many others. Some are atheists. What does it matter unless you look at things as Shea has shown usin the mini-series "Incoherence." After this we are left with… ,well, left with what!! We mostly don't want to listen, especially if the voice comes from the outside! So you see, the atheist and evolutionist are quite correct to say, with Neitzsche, that the presence of hunger does not mean that there is surely food just over the hill. The urge to the supernatural, to the transcendent is not a proof of God. Gary, as to your second paragraph: Please try to avoid the conflation of causation and world view. " Done by an atheist" is not equivalent to "Done in the name of godlessness"! Now you may indeed attempt to argue that Communism is a result of atheistic thinking, whatever that is. Such an argument must do much more work than to say," Well, not believing in God opens up the door for all sorts of evil things, ergo, atheism causes communism." Instead, you would be burdened with having to tell a very long psychological/philosophical narrative genealogy showing a step by step causal accounting that connects what amounts to a mere denial of something – the atheist denial of God – with a positive agenda i.e. Communism. As we philosophers say, tell the tale. By the way, Marx was brought up as a Jew. There was a "Nazi Church" during the Third Reich. John Paul II saw the necessity of a vast apology to the Jews, about two thoysand years too late.  The racist Christian South!  Should I go on? Besides, some of the other rogues of the 20th century you mention were believers in God, were theists, no? I could be mistaken. However, embarassingly, it is empirically true that many horrific events happened, attitiudes calcified, and dispositions engendered by an explicit and self-consciously avowed belief in God, Christ, and the Church : that such and such is being carried out for His sake! No atheist that I know of lead an army into battle with waving the flag of Atheism nor did whatever horror was done by chanting, " And this I deal out to you in the name of atheism!"  I have addressed this very point elsewhere ad nauseam and am weary of it.  Your other point that Christian rogues, e.g. Nazi's were just crazy should equally apply to atheist rogues also, no?  So crazy becomes the commion causation instead of religion or non-religion? Well, I think we can offer more enlightening explanations for the cause of both crazies, but not now. Your last few sentences about atheits "irrational beliefs" viz. matter and energy are utterly irrelevant to the greater good to be had by engaging our shared vision -in cases of our overlap in moral/ethical vision and advancement. And please do not tell me that without a belief in God an atheist can do no good or has no reason to desire good as so many whack- jobs have said to me.  Even Shea agrees here! As to their presumed "irrational" beliefs on matter and energy origins, we Christians merely stop the inquiry by asserting, " Oh, no problem here. God created it all." To an atheist this sounds like a bunch of pious dogmatism. And wihtout a belief of God it merely begs the question. I should not like to get into a contest of which of us holds to the more irrational set of beliefs, we Christians or those atheists! Thanks.

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    I have a feeling trying to debate with lwall will go nowhere, and get there fast.  The 'all religion is at fault for all the nasties done by religious people' when set in juxtaposition to the tired 'uh, you can't blame the various atheist regimes for the nasties that happened during their reigns' is about as shallow as it gets.  No offense, but they didn't have to declare that in the name of atheism, they must now slaughter.  Atheism was the canvas upon which their worldviews were painted. And those worldviews taught that humans held no particular place that those with power needed to be concerned about.

     

    As for the other arguments, I'll leave those to folks cleverer than myself.  But the "atheists want their cake, want to eat it, and want religious people to do the dishes" has never flown.  If you hold religion’s feet to the fire, the feet of atheism must join the party. 

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        This is a quick response to the last question you posed to me about religion (specifically Christianity) possibly leading more to violence than atheism. 

        I think history has shown that there is no less or more of a tendency towards violence in either group.  There have been plenty of cases especially among Communist leaders that have in fact killed others because they do believe in God, just as some Christians have done the same to heretics.  In the end any belief system has an inherent tendency to divide.  Regretfully there is a human tendency to use belief systems to stir up division even when those systems do not even teach what they are preaching.  This has been done effectively by Darwinist dictators (Nazis) as well as by theocratic dictators.  There may be more cases you could give of theocratic dictators, but this is simply due to the fact that atheism is a fairly new thing, at least in the sense of it being widespread.

          There are many examples today of people using rhetoric to stir up hate some of those doing this are of a professed religion some of these are atheists.  The point is that both are abusing the belief system along with their abuse of people.  It is not the belief system doing the abuse.   It is to me completely illogical to claim that Christianity could promote war when its central teachings are those of humility and love.  It can actually be very effectively argued that even though there was much fighting during the time of the old European theocracies the fighting was much more civilized (than the wars before or after this period) in the sense of its rules to limit civilian casualties and the days when fighting was allowed.  I am not arguing for theocracies, but merely pointing out that it could have been even worse if they were not Christian.  Who knows?   The Romans, though they had many gods, at their core philosophy were very atheist and were much more savage.  The most savage modern massacres have all been done either by declared atheists or with no mention of religion or God.

         So, no I do not agree that there is anything at all about Christianity that promotes violence in fact it is quite obviously the opposite.  That some unscrupulous people will take adavantage of certain biblical quotes you can be sure.  You can also be sure people will continue to take advantage of science as a reason to kill each other.  Both foolish and as we agree (I think) both have no bearing on the validity of religion or science.

     

    God Bless, 

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    While all debate is dialogue, not all dialogue is debate.  I said, and stand by it, that debate about the relative goodness or evil of atheism and Christianity in relation to each other is fruitless. However, rational dialogue between atheists and Christians about how everybody can make this a better place by engaging in "acts of random kindness" or as the Church has defined them for centuries – spiritual and corporal works of mercy – can and should be fruitful.

     

    As to the original argumet, the main idea in Mr. Shea's article that bothers me is the following: "…Given that nobody has yet been able to actually see a "meme", I think it might be worth asking how we know they exist,…"  By that sophomoric argument, we could well argue that the wind, the Holy Spirit, or many other unseen realities do not exist.  To me, that is the weakest of Mr. Shea's rhetoric.

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    To Stengel and anyone: Thanks for your considered response. I do think there is an inherent danger in the religious urge.The danger owes to many factors not the least of which concerns what's at stake : ultimact, the unconditional, and as one the greatest theologians of the 2oth c., Paul Tillich, the formal object of theology is that which determines our being or non-being. And there is tremendous existential anxiety, to use Tillich's term and meaning, it that object. I therefore do not believe that the Christian histoical legacy "disproves" God nor Christianity. What I find objectionable is the all too facile , knee jerk response of many of our ilk who generalize atheism and atheists as evil, incoherent, irrational, incapable of good,etc. This is clearly wrong. And it is quintessentially immoral to do so, I believe. What is even more objectionable is to foist certain propositons upon certain atheists claims as a set up for some type of pseudo-intellectual debunking.I have urged that we forgo such thinking and instead try to learn from their very often rich insights; to open ourselves up to a particular genre of admittedly bookish and intellectual literature so as to more clearly see and feel God's presence and to foster solidarity. As I have also urged, it is not necessary to converge on metaphysics in order to walk with our brothers and sisters. Atheists are not all bad, for God's sake, just as all Christians are not all good. Atheism is not an agenda. It is not a precription for this or that. Therefore, be open minded and open hearted. Be patient and tolerate what you can. Learn. Expand.

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    I couldn't agree more we should treat all with respect and patience, and most importantly strive to see Christ (ie good) in all peoples before we strive to see their evils.  I agree also in the sense that we should focus more on the certain dangerous sects of atheism (and dangerous sects of so-called Christians for that matter), and maybe Mr. Shea should have been more clear what exact group of atheist thinkers he was speaking about.  We must always be proud to be Catholic, but  also (strangely) humble at the same time about it.

     

    God Bless,

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    Amen.

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    To Jayreilly:

    I think Mark's argument about Memes is merely to point out that Atheists are prone to hold beliefs just as irrational as our own.  Or beliefs that are beyond scientifc proof.  However you want to say it.

     

    lwall: I am not arguing that the desire for supernatural proves God, merely that it makes for an extremely weak argument to "prove" atheism, which is why I think it is such an odd argument to trot out.  I guess my larger thesis is that there should be no double standard.  Christians have "irrational beliefs".  So do atheists.  Christians have killed wrongly.  So have atheists.  I think it is important not to let any dialogue between Christianity to be skewed by some belief that atheists are superior to Christians, and I am certain atheists would argue for the reverse.  We cannot have meaningful dialogue based on errors.  I think you are falling into a trap of allowing atheism a double standard here.

     

    Adam,

    In the end any belief system has an inherent tendency to divide

    While this has generally proven true, I think that this is contrary what Christ wants.  He wants all humanity to "be one".  One communion of all persons with Christ.  All people are invited to be Christians.  As Christians, we must live with the belief that all non-Christians just might be future Christians, not enemies to divide us.

    And this is why I do agree with lwall that we should feel compelled to engage atheism in dialogue rooted in truth and charity.  There are things we do agree upon that we can work together.  And together, we can seek fruitful dialogue to discover the truth about the human person.  We should be excited to share it.  And perhaps our example serves as a witness too.  Maybe some atheists will stop being "future Christians"!

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    To Stengel and All : I thought I was finished on this post site. But what a timely article for us – todays lead article on the Barna Reseach  Study. There are some problems with the stats as always. But the overall gist is dierctly on our point. Read especially the last paragraph!. Read my response posted on that site if you please. God bless all.

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    lwall – how is truth defined within the context of the bio-computational model?

     

     It seems to me that the reasonable way to define the truth value of a given proposition from a brain based perspective is evidentiary experience.  The brain is continually building a model which it uses for predictive purposes. As the individual goes through life a given proposition may be transmitted to it ( through communication with another individual writing speaking et). The brain then test these propositions in two ways.

     

    1) comparing them to pre existing data that was established previously as having a high truth weight.

     

    2) Giving that there is little or not conflict during 1 the brain test the datum by incorporating it into the model and acting on it then measures the actions and see if the predictive power of the model was increased or decreased by the new datum.

     

     

    So if we find that the brain accepts something is true isn't it at least as likely it is because the information corresponds to some real things as not?

     

    Certainly if there is an evolutionary advantage to believing that an apple is in our environment and can be interacted with the most likely reason there would be an advantage is because there is in fact an apple to interact with.

      

    Also, if there is significant evolutionary advantage to the belief in the supernatural are we not justified in asking what disadvantage will be incurred by disregarding that belief.

      

    Is it not possible that disregarding the belief in god is actually dangerous the survival of the species?  

      

    Still, I find I have some very serious misgiving about the bio-computational model.

     

    While it has a certain amount of useful expressiveness, it seems to be very like attempting to understand a television by studying it’s circuitry , but beginning with the assumption that cannot possibly be any such thing as electro-magnetic waves or television signals and neglecting to pay any real intention to the possible interpretations of the picture presented. ( in case you haven’t studied televisions you would find that they have a series of various oscillating electrical circuits some of which exist for the purpose of controlling and others of which actually compete with each other using cancellations to create the picture.)

      

    Simply because we can adjust picture by injecting more electricity into a given circuit or make the picture stop or become distorted by destroying of affecting others circuits should not draw a person to the conclusion that picture originating within the television.

     

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    lwall-

    It seems to be a prevailing opinion among a certain group that the reason why we have a tendency to believe in god / the supernatural is because there are distinct evolutionary advantages that this belief brings to the human race.  Further their seems to be a consensus that the advantages have to do specifically with social cohesion and co-operation.

     

     

    Reformulating these conclusions slightly would it be unfair to draw the conclusion that the belief in the supernatural has the effect on the brains model of reality of providing motivation and increasing the likely hood of co-operation and fairness as well as countering the natural tendency to act out of self interest without considering ‘others’?

     

     

    Is it not also then true one would expect that if the brain assigns a negatively weighted truth value to the existence of the supernatural that the effect will be the opposite.

     

    Namely that the evolutionary advantages will be lost and the brain’s model of reality will now be absent a set of propositional data which discouraged selfishness.  The effects of this should be to increase selfishness in the individual and or group long term.

      

    Also, it would seem reasonable to assume that the level of selfishness would be higher in those individuals who are more fully able to integrate and act on  the new knowledge that god is not real into their model based on previous experience and environment and genetics.

       

    I would suggest , that a very good example of what happens when an individual successfully  integrates this new information into their brains model of reality and translates that model into action is Joseph Stalin and perhaps to a lesser extent Aldof Hitler.

     

     

    When such an individual becomes depressed in addition to accomplishing full integration of this fact what you get is the Virginia tech killings.

         

    As a side note I hope this is useful to you because it took me quite a bit of research.

     

    I have basically rephrased the premise put forward in the article in a new framework which you seem to have a great deal of admiration for to the extent that you are highly dismissive of other frameworks with significantly better expression power.

     

     

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    Fishman: In response. Your concern seems to be that should the human brain eventaully de-evolve its hypothzed meat-framework for bleief in the suoernatural then we might tragicalluy then evolve towards a radical self-regarding and other- disregarding synaptic self is intriguing though unlikely. I say unlikely because our intact neurocomputational model is structured so as to re-adjust itself in realtion to social interaction and the goods experienced by such interaction. The capacity for adjustment and augmentation of our synaptic frameworks therefore is recurrent towards its own network, that is, the framework adjusts towards itself, its structure of and for the sake of socialness. Now, one does not need an additional meta-network impinging upon this framework say a  meta-network of "belief in the supernatural" in order for this present synaptic framework to function or augment itself , where augment means "getting better at what it does morally/socially " and where " getting better" means  acheiving more and wider moral/social relevances and synaptic weightings" of same. The very claim of many neuro/bio/evolutionsts seem to be that we empiraclly have shown and are still showing in present culture that the human race is experienceing conflictual feelings about its old supernatural meta-network – once having served us pretty well but no longer. This rising internal dissonsnce is witnessed to by the evident facts of a rising pluralism and diversity of beliefs among Christians, a wide variation in the meanings of God such that the term as widely used today is non-univocal in meaning and is nominal only, as well as the evident fact that many good non-belivers are out there picking up many of the moral and social concerns as belong, supposedly, to those of the supernature meatframe, as well as a there being huge library of non-supernatural moral philosophers and writers who, miarculously, come up with many beliefs and paradigms consonant with Christianity. I believe at this point that your worry of a human de-evolution and deletion of the supernatural meta-network later devovling into an arachy [ a prior poster actually said that atheism is anarchy waiting to happen!] seems very unlike because of the neural recurrent feedback and intrinsic social recurrency characteristic of the social synaptic network now in place which at this point really looks to be hard wired in the brain. One would have first to rip that out and start all over with the laying down of new anti-sociall circuitry based on an entirely new and oppossing underlying social or anti-social biology of emotion and sentiment. Thanks.

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    lwall – I think you are overestimating the function of the "hardware' in the human brain and ignoring the effects of the 'software'.  Any computational device does what it does because it works against data and information.  Processing streams of signals ( aka aphapbets) and changing that data will certainly have an affect. 

     You are trusting that , like wolves, man's animal insticts and need for mutal association will be sufficent to keep self intrest intact.  The real question is weathe or not his modeling capablilty which will predict greater self pleasure and utility from 'bending the rules' when the danger of being caught is low will overcome the natural animal sense to 'get along'. 

     It seems that the modeling capality is a later advancement of the brain and has the ability to arrest all but the most primitive functions from the the lower brain.  If that were not the case didactic would not be nearly as useful as it is for the purpose of changing peoples actions.  For instances it is evident that the modeling functions of the brain are capable of overcoming the motherly instinct to protect thier young ( one of the strongest).  The aritcle you reccomended to me noted that there was longer deliberation and difficulty in making this decision , what it did not note is that often mothers can be made to kill thier young by that kind of data being presented to them. 

     

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    fishman: We have no software.  I hate to say it, but once again you are all over the map! Get grounded. Many species of non-believers out there share many common beliefs and moral vision as Christians… a matter of empirical fact. This is due to socio/bio/evolutionist learning. Your post is tantamount to shaking your fist at the universe for being so vast! Read Churchland for starters. Again, the neurocomputaional model shows that the human network is recurrent towards itself as a function of preserving, augmenting, an adjusting towards enhancement of social living and flourishing. It seems to be resistant – at least at this point of the science – to devovlement against itself as history of the race testifies.

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    lwall- I find what you are saying highly paradoxical.Explain to me what you mean? Are you suggesting that human beings do not learn? Do not remember? Are you suggesting that we do not discriminate between propositional information passed on to use through the use of external vocabulary as compared to real experience?  That is what you seem to be driving at.If that were so there would be no abortion because the material instinct for preservation of the young ( one of our strongest and innatest drives)  would always overcome the disadvantages of having a child.I can easily understand that as a factor of "socio/bio/evolutionist learning" we all have an aversion to the taking of human life.  On the other hand we all find it acceptable under culturally differing circumstances.  It would seem to be the differentiation cannot be biological but must be environmental, aka in 'the software'.

    by which I am only trying to draw analogy between suggesting ‘memory, training etc’. 

    All computers undergo physical change when storing data, so the fact the brain undergoes physical change when trained by it’s environment does not mean that it is not storing information.   It seems obvious by looking at human science we continually classify things. Certain we classify ‘facts’ as ‘correct’ or ‘incorrect’ based on our previous conditioning.  Or do you disagree?  If different individuals classify facts differently how can it NOT change the outcome of their actions? As near as I can tell the best you can say from a neurological perspective is that we are preconditions to store ‘facts’ in certain ways.   

    For instance, we both agree human beings are definitely preconditioned by biology to store facts in such a way that we come to believe in the existence of god/gods.   If that is true is atheism a genetic aberration, like say albinism? If it is not their must be a distinction between the ‘tendency to believe in God’ and the actual realization of that tendency?  Am I wrong?

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    Fishman: We do not have software. It is all hardare.

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    lwall, obviously at some point the software, hardware analogy breaks down and it seems we are miscommunicating agian.

    Let me slow down and ask small questions perhaps that will help.

    I have tried to read into what you have been saying but obviously am failing. 

    Explain to me please, what happens when a human being processes a verbal or textual statment.

     Example;  Mother tells child " little joe there is an apple under that box go get it"

     

     

     

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    Fishman: software is exogenous to hardware. Computers can run exogenous programs. For the human, no exogenous programs that our brains run. It's all us",  brain- stuff all the way down. To answer your question about little joe would require far too many word and diagrams. Simply, however,…sensory input, first neuronal layer recursive, recurrent categorization circuits, furheth categorization, conceptual franeworks. recurernt frameworks, alteration of neronal set points for a myriad of connected frameworks, vision , recognition allied emotional connectivity, past relevanves , amygdala and hippocampula recruitment, relevant conceptual metaphors, approcval circuitry….more but this is very rudimentary.. 

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    you answer is deep and useless at the same time.

    when a comptuer calls another on the phone line and sends a serious of commands via audio signal which causes actions in another computer it is said that data was transmitted.

     

    If the brain does not alter it's responses as an effect of external signals generated in the sensory organs then obviously we are not talking at this moment it time.

     

    if it does alter it's responses then obviously we do transmit information to each other and act on it.

     

    The information then is highly relivant because it works like a turing machine agianst it's alphabet.

     

    read this and see what you 'think' if you belive you do such a thing 😉

     http://www.acsa2000.net/john2.html

     

     

     

     

     

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    totally do not see your point. Is there one?

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    Fishman: The little lay- language decription I gave in my post is certainly not useless. I was explaining in common language the current science of the workings of the human brain, and I assure you this vast body of research/knowledge is not useless. How could you evev suggest unless you compreehnd none of what I said. Now I spared you the neuroanatomic anatomic correlates,  because I assume you would appreciate little of that unless like me you know this material. However, I am quite familiar with both the brain's complex macroscopic anatomy and its neural computational routes by which our brain works for sensory perception and for its generation a myriad of frameworks which generate our moral values and social behavior. By the way, I have often wondered where do you get your information which seems, excuse me, merely pulled out of your own hat perhaps? It resembles nothing "out there", no currently active paradigm in the literature being discussed.  Although I feel you are quite bright, not being able to speak a shared public language – say, the works of a philosopher or a scientific genre – has impovereshed our dialectic. Is there anything you can do to reemdy that? Such as READ SOMETHING! Actually, this is not unique to you. In fact I am appalled at the general lack of knowledge and education on this site. I was hoping for more.

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    Iwall:

    I do not think it appropriate that you disparage others when they disagree with or challenge you.  Such disparagement is not something Catholics should engage in.

     

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    jayreilly :"Opinions are not all equal. Yes, you are entitled to 'your opinion", but ownership does not equate with quality. A  good opinion is well informed and argued with good form."  I always tell this to my philosophy students. There is a type of opinion- stating and poor argument form which are always worthy of and,in fact, demand disparagement especially when adduced without textural support or knowledge of the subject matter, a sort of "shoooting from the hip". It is not done for the sake of fruitful dialectic and good argument but for the sake of sheer argumentativeness. I can spot it a mile a way! The poster you refer to routinely engages in both.

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    Iwall:

    All people, regardless of any limiter we wish to assign to any of them, are worthy of being treated with dignity and respect.  There is a difference between disparaging an opinion worthy of disparagement and disparaging a human person always worthy of dignity and respect.

     

    Cathlics, as followers of Jesus Christ, should strive to never disparage other people.

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    jayreilly: Stop preaching! Absurd and whiny.  I have not disparaged the person. I have properly characterized responses as poorly informed, poorly argued, and argumentative. Grow up!

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    God loves you .

    Uh . . .

    Some of you folks gotta get out more.

    The ‘dialogues’, ‘debates’, ‘arguments’ and such make for a sturdy pile – but, then again, good bonfires start with sturdy piles.

    I have to admit that I leave atheists, other non-Catholic types and all you folks to God – they, you and I all have to see Him, in the end, and the judgment job is His. However, Mark Shea has a job to do with giving added meat for the formidable body of the Church to chew on; that our individual judgments before our King may find us in His good lights. Mr. Shea does such a good job of it that the National Catholic Register publishes his work.

    Why don’t you all meet over a sunny picnic, formulate a ’roundtable discussion of atheism based in part on Mark Shea’s articles ‘, and submit the results to the National Catholic Register for publication.

    Remember, I love you, too

    Reminding that we are all on the same side – His,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or … yahoo.com)

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    wljewell: Are you advocating a non-dialectical engagement with the article's we read on this post? A sort of non-analytical "rubber stamping" and endorsement? Everything written on this site is worthy and immune from critical commentary? Is this how u see it? One editor admonished me along these same lines – that this is a Catholic website! Now,the comments posted on this site re: the "Atheism" series disclose some few but quite good analysis and critical commentary which would never- for that very reason-  be published in National Catholic Register. In terms of just who needs to "get out more", that comment is tantamount to the pot calling the kettle black, my friend, judging from what I have [ attempted] to read of your posts. As to your opening disregard for "atheists, and non-Catholic types", this very attitude – if I am reading you correctly- is not only contrary to the call to evangelization and the  forging of a wider solidarity and thus against Church doctrine. It is also a major contributer to the growing denigration of the Church. But I may have read you incorrectly. 

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    Iwall

    I have tried to keep from being personal in my responses, in contrast to your continual personal attacks on those who disagree with you, but I find I cannot continue to do so.

     

    Contrary to your obviously overblown opinion of your opinions, all of them are pedantic and have little coherence.  Based on what I've read of your postings, I find it difficult to believe you are a teacher of any subject.

     

    If you want to engage in respectful dialog, please do so;  if you want to argue with everybody and call names and other childish shenanigans, run for public office.

     

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    Guest

    God loves you .

    Oh, I can believe that lwall is one supremo-legend-in-his-own-mind academic. Every sentence fairly drips with ‘. . . for the edification of you lesser creatures’.

    Does he not deign to stoop to our obviously miserable (for being lesser, of course) level?

    I stopped paying attention to him long ago . . .

    Remember, I love you, too

    Reminding that we are all on the same side – His,

    Pristinus Sapienter

    (wljewell @catholicexchange.com or … yahoo.com)

  50. Guest Avatar
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    wljewell: So much for your opinions! As I've said here and to my students in my classes – and , sorry, I am a teacher at a University, philosophy and some theology – not all opinions are equal, nor is one's  opinion good or valid simply because it is one's own. There is a massive ignorance revealed on this post which often seeds mutiple responding posts based on some misconception then muluiplied by incoherent arguments. The purpose of CE is evangelization which includes evangelization and instruction of the faithful. We all have different gifts. What is wrong with edification of those who are in a state of confusion or misunderstanding of the faith. In fact, all I see you doing is put out is a rash of nebulous "spiritual-mystical" quips and  two liners; a virtual wiseman, Christian guru and  Moses figure patting us all on the head and offering us quips and admonishions flowing from  your immediate experience of  God's presence. It must be difficult for you to find mere human words to express your apparently inward, private,idiosyncratic, on-going mystical expereince. As you know, two mystics in a room can not communicate with each other nor anyone else. At times it does break through. However, it would be more desirable if you would refrain from this plethora of spiritual ejaculatory phrases and quips butsimply come down to us merely finite language users folks from time to time. And, yes, I am an academic.That is not a  vice, my friend. Remember God loves you to.   

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